September 11, 2001 – Thoughts on an Anniversary

[jbg]

September 11, 2001 – Thoughts on an Anniversary

This is the sixth anniversary of the senseless slaughter of civilian perpetrated on citizens of the United States, Great Britain, Canada and other countries, in the name of religious and political fanaticism, by rabid followers of a false G-d. The attacks came on a brilliantly clear day, and had the force and directness of a clean, harsh and hot wind from the Arabian deserts; our way of life could not stand, because of the softness, decadence and freedom it afforded. The West’s way of life, providing for material prosperity, relative freedom for all citizens, regardless of race or religion, and unfettered speech is not consistent with the needs of a religion based on submission by most of their citizens, and dhimmitude for “other peoples of the book”.

Death was mandated for people refusing to submit, and who had the temerity to assert the right to enter into commercial and military relationships involving presence in Daar Islam, or to promote and protect the existence of non-Islamic countries in regions close to the ummah. Whether those killed in the ensuing jihad were involved in any way with the struggle between Islam and others was largely irrelevant, as all were “infidels” subject to slaughter.

Initially and long-term, the West’s reaction was mixed. President Bush rashly referred to Islam as a “religion of peace”, which most assuredly it is not. The President even made a visit to a mosque. Correctly, the U.S. and other allied countries invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, with a goal towards clarifying the relationship between the West and Islamic lands. That relationship ought to be based upon equality mutual respect for each other’s interests. Clearly, that is not the basis of the relationship, where planes smash into buildings, exploding jihadis slaughter people at random on commuter trains (March 11, 2004 in Spain), subways (July 11, 2005 in Britain) or attempt to do so again in Britain (June 27-28, 2007 in London and Glasgow). Muslims’ attempts to equate those attacks with collateral damage inflicted in the course of wars not aimed by the West at civilians, and/or off-course and non-deadly events such as Abu Ghraib are fatuous at best. The West vigorously prosecutes any military activity aimed at civilians. This is well-known, and to deny this borders on fraud.

In the West, newspapers and politicians seek the easy course; withdrawal (of volunteer troops) from Iraq, appeasement of Muslim interests, etc. Footbaths designed to facilitate prayer are being installed at universities (link to article) , supported by people who express opposition to the idea of Christmas displays in public, and/or display of the Ten Commandments in court houses. The West needs to understand what is at stake, and push back. That way, Muslims, Christians and Jews can live in peace, cognizant of the boundaries, and what happens when those are transgressed.

If you think that’s bad, ask the Japanese whether life was better under Tojo and dictatorship than it is now. Did we win their “hearts and minds” by appeasement. Oops, I forgot, we dropped the ultimate weapon on them. They are not expressing their “anger” by blowing themselves up to kill people. Nor, for that matter, are Jewish victims of the Holocaust. The Muslims can learn to be a constructive, contributing part of this world. They do not have to limit their contributions to rapine, death and destruction, in search of domination.

And those views are the views of a true liberal; peace, equality and freedom should, and must rule.

[moderateamericain]

September 11, 2001 – Thoughts on an Anniversary

This is the sixth anniversary of the senseless slaughter of civilian perpetrated on citizens of the United States, Great Britain, Canada and other countries, in the name of religious and political fanaticism, by rabid followers of a false G-d. The attacks came on a brilliantly clear day, and had the force and directness of a clean, harsh and hot wind from the Arabian deserts; our way of life could not stand, because of the softness, decadence and freedom it afforded. The West’s way of life, providing for material prosperity, relative freedom for all citizens, regardless of race or religion, and unfettered speech is not consistent with the needs of a religion based on submission by most of their citizens, and dhimmitude for “other peoples of the book”.

Death was mandated for people refusing to submit, and who had the temerity to assert the right to enter into commercial and military relationships involving presence in Daar Islam, or to promote and protect the existence of non-Islamic countries in regions close to the ummah. Whether those killed in the ensuing jihad were involved in any way with the struggle between Islam and others was largely irrelevant, as all were “infidels” subject to slaughter.

Initially and long-term, the West’s reaction was mixed. President Bush rashly referred to Islam as a “religion of peace”, which most assuredly it is not. The President even made a visit to a mosque. Correctly, the U.S. and other allied countries invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, with a goal towards clarifying the relationship between the West and Islamic lands. That relationship ought to be based upon equality mutual respect for each other’s interests. Clearly, that is not the basis of the relationship, where planes smash into buildings, exploding jihadis slaughter people at random on commuter trains (March 11, 2004 in Spain), subways (July 11, 2005 in Britain) or attempt to do so again in Britain (June 27-28, 2007 in London and Glasgow). Muslims’ attempts to equate those attacks with collateral damage inflicted in the course of wars not aimed by the West at civilians, and/or off-course and non-deadly events such as Abu Ghraib are fatuous at best. The West vigorously prosecutes any military activity aimed at civilians. This is well-known, and to deny this borders on fraud.

In the West, newspapers and politicians seek the easy course; withdrawal (of volunteer troops) from Iraq, appeasement of Muslim interests, etc. Footbaths designed to facilitate prayer are being installed at universities (link to article) , supported by people who express opposition to the idea of Christmas displays in public, and/or display of the Ten Commandments in court houses. The West needs to understand what is at stake, and push back. That way, Muslims, Christians and Jews can live in peace, cognizant of the boundaries, and what happens when those are transgressed.

If you think that’s bad, ask the Japanese whether life was better under Tojo and dictatorship than it is now. Did we win their “hearts and minds” by appeasement. Oops, I forgot, we dropped the ultimate weapon on them. They are not expressing their “anger” by blowing themselves up to kill people. Nor, for that matter, are Jewish victims of the Holocaust. The Muslims can learn to be a constructive, contributing part of this world. They do not have to limit their contributions to rapine, death and destruction, in search of domination.

And those views are the views of a true liberal; peace, equality and freedom should, and must rule.

Dear Anyone who threatens My country:

Look at your wife and children and I want you to think hard about the life you will leave them when you crash that airplane into that building. Your wife will lose a husband and your son or daughter will lose a father. They will mourn you when they have time between substance farming and or selling flashlights. Your sons will have to pick up the slack of work you left behind. Ruining any chance for a possible future for them. Sure as can be that bleak life will give Holy men the crack in your children's natural defenses to turn them into martyrs just like you! Do these Imams or the Imams families put themselves in danger? Nope, thats what you are for, sacrificial lambs to ease there own damned souls. But fear not we will avenge you.

People like me, who may be white, brown, yellow or any other color that make up this nation, we come from different paths of life some good and some similar to yours. We have similar wants and desires but the difference is, we have the hope of making a better future for ourselves while you do not. Well, if your mission is successful i can guarantee you two things will happen, You will be dead or in a prison somewhere where nobody will ever see or hear from you again, and you will piss of a nation of over 300 million people with the capability of destroying your small nation off the face of the earth 10000x over. So please, wake this sleeping giant up and it will be men and women like me who have served this nation that will kick down your door and kill your sons when they try to suicide bomb are troops. I offer your family no mercy. The same that your actions did to my people.

To the Imams and financial backers and dictators who squash people under your thumbs, bleed any ounce of hope or chance at a fair life for those you rule or bully, and sponsor terrorism of any shade, anywhere in the world. May i meet you in a dark corner because your death will be brutal beyond all reckoning. I will send you to whatever god you wish to see but a shadow of your human form. May death find you quickly.

To those in my country who seek to find a middle ground with religious fanatics and terrorist, that time has passed. These people cannot be reasoned with or pacified. Zealots of any shade cannot be shaken from there beliefs. But I give you this great honor to disagree with me and curse my believes and do so openly. YOu may shake your fist at me and call me warmonger or whatever belief you have. Meanwhile, Ill do my duty and stand a post. This promise I give to you, as long is there is breath in my body and a heart in my chest. I will do everything in my power to not let it be your children being abused by religious fanatics. Your Husbands dieing in the name of Jihad. Your sons and daughters being squashed by dictatorship. I fight for the man to my left and to my right, for my family and for yours. I will be that awaken and enraged giant in the hopes that my children and yours never have to in there lifetimes.

Sincerly

One man who did hes duty

[jbg]

****

So please, wake this sleeping giant up and it will be men and women like me who have served this nation that will kick down your door and kill your sons when they try to suicide bomb are troops. I offer your family no mercy. The same that your actions did to my people.

****

To those in my country who seek to find a middle ground with religious fanatics and terrorist, that time has passed. These people cannot be reasoned with or pacified. Zealots of any shade cannot be shaken from there beliefs. But I give you this great honor to disagree with me and curse my believes and do so openly. YOu may shake your fist at me and call me warmonger or whatever belief you have. Meanwhile, Ill do my duty and stand a post. This promise I give to you, as long is there is breath in my body and a heart in my chest. I will do everything in my power to not let it be your children being abused by religious fanatics. Your Husbands dieing in the name of Jihad. Your sons and daughters being squashed by dictatorship. I fight for the man to my left and to my right, for my family and for yours. I will be that awaken and enraged giant in the hopes that my children and yours never have to in there lifetimes.

Great words. May those be remembered.

[Black Dog]

First, jbg, I thought you were banned from DailyKos. Yet there you are. Anyway, it's nice to see you haven't lost your touch for po-faced calls for indiscriminate slaughter. "A true liberal", my ass.

Surely it's a sad state of affairs when the 3,000 dead are memorialized by such solipsistic wankery. A little perspective helps. It is estimated that between 343,900 and 529,000 Iraqi children under the age of five perished in the period of UN sanctions on Iraq prior to the 2003 war. Even taken in isolation, divorced from the slaughter and devastation that followed America's savage invasion in 2003, that number is monstrous. So spare me the sack-cloth and ashes routine for the victims of 9-11. Our countries have done far worse to far more.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Black Dog

[geoffrey]

Saddam killed those children, he could have ended the sanctions in a heart beat by following the UN order.

Nevertheless, I think 9-11 is largely overstated. Americans should grieve or what not, because it is a large number to them, but 3,000 is pretty tiny in the overall scheme of things.

I think Americans on 9-11 are more upset about a loss of innocence than about the actual individual dead.

[jbg]

First, jbg, I thought you were banned from DailyKos. Yet there you are. Anyway, it's nice to see you haven't lost your touch for po-faced calls for indiscriminate slaughter. "A true liberal", my ass.

Why the need for a personal attack? Nothing in that post was aimed at you or your conduct on this or any other forum. And I challenge you, what does this post have to do with dailykos?

Surely it's a sad state of affairs when the 3,000 dead are memorialized by such solipsistic wankery. A little perspective helps. It is estimated that between 343,900 and 529,000 Iraqi children under the age of five perished in the period of UN sanctions on Iraq prior to the 2003 war. Even taken in isolation, divorced from the slaughter and devastation that followed America's savage invasion in 2003, that number is monstrous. So spare me the sack-cloth and ashes routine for the victims of 9-11. Our countries have done far worse to far more.

And you probably wanted GWB to give more time for UN sanctions to work? By your math, Bush's invasion was merciful. I sure think so.

[jbg]

I think Americans on 9-11 are more upset about a loss of innocence than about the actual individual dead.

My post didn't address the death toll, though if Osama understood New York City and the fact that we generally get to work around 9:30-10:00 a.m., especially in the Financial District, he'd have nailed a lot more. My post addressed the fact that there's a war going on, and we're not taking it seriously. Taking random casualties is easy; defeating a military target isn't. They make no attempt (other than the USS Cole) to attack military targets. We cannot bring ourselves to alllow even minor collateral damage.

Something's wrong here.

[Black Dog]

Why the need for a personal attack? Nothing in that post was aimed at you or your conduct on this or any other forum.

What personal attack? By your own definition of the term, true liberals don't call for the slaughtering of innocents. You quite often do. Ergo, no true liberal you.

And I challenge you, what does this post have to do with dailykos?

Only that you were whining a while back about the big meanies at DK, yet continue to post there. This came up because I thought I'd check to see if this was in fact your work.

And you probably wanted GWB to give more time for UN sanctions to work? By your math, Bush's invasion was merciful. I sure think so.

I don't belive the sanctions would have ever worked. They were flawed from the start.

geoffery:

Saddam killed those children, he could have ended the sanctions in a heart beat by following the UN order.

And where in Saddam's long and brutal history was the precedent for concern for his people which would have led him to such a course of action? No, Saddam acted as anyone should have known he would. Which places the blame for the inevitavble consequenses on those who instituted such a fatally flawed policy to begin with.

Nevertheless, I think 9-11 is largely overstated. Americans should grieve or what not, because it is a large number to them, but 3,000 is pretty tiny in the overall scheme of things.

I think Americans on 9-11 are more upset about a loss of innocence than about the actual individual dead.

If by loss of innocence, you mean the loss of the illusion of invincibility, you're bang on. Americans for one day got to experience what life is like in most of the rest of the world. And they still won't shut up about it.

[jbg]

If by loss of innocence, you mean the loss of the illusion of invincibility, you're bang on. Americans for one day got to experience what life is like in most of the rest of the world. And they still won't shut up about it.

Excuse me. We (both in Canada and the US) made a life better than exists in the rest of the world. Why should we have to live like savages?

[Black Dog]

Excuse me. We (both in Canada and the US) made a life better than exists in the rest of the world. Why should we have to live like savages?

Way to miss the point, chuckles.

Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing how a "true liberal" (y'know, one who values peace, equality and freedom) can call for indiscriminate slaughter and still expect to retain his or her liberal bona fides.

[jbg]

Way to miss the point, chuckles.

Anyway, I'm still interested in hearing how a "true liberal" (y'know, one who values peace, equality and freedom) can call for indiscriminate slaughter and still expect to retain his or her liberal bona fides.

I didn't call for indiscriminate slaughter and you know it. But my point was that Japan seems to have understood that its leaders provoked Hiroshima and now, aside from the English-speaking countries Japan is the US's closest ally (Israel I consider to be English-speaking).

[sharkman]

First, jbg, I thought you were banned from DailyKos. Yet there you are. Anyway, it's nice to see you haven't lost your touch for po-faced calls for indiscriminate slaughter. "A true liberal", my ass.

Surely it's a sad state of affairs when the 3,000 dead are memorialized by such solipsistic wankery. A little perspective helps. It is estimated that between 343,900 and 529,000 Iraqi children under the age of five perished in the period of UN sanctions on Iraq prior to the 2003 war. Even taken in isolation, divorced from the slaughter and devastation that followed America's savage invasion in 2003, that number is monstrous. So spare me the sack-cloth and ashes routine for the victims of 9-11. Our countries have done far worse to far more.

Talk about only hearing one side of the story. Why oh why did the Iraqi people suffer so badly under that time? Because the U.N. permitted the weapons inspectors to lop off Iraqi heads as they went about their business? Uh no, it was even though the U.N. bent over frickin backwards to get food and aid to the people in the FOOD FOR OIL PROGRAMS, Saddam and his henchmen didn't bother to help their own people.

You may have danced a jig on 9/11, I don't really care. But spare us all your crap please.

[Guest American Woman]

If by loss of innocence, you mean the loss of the illusion of invincibility, you're bang on. Americans for one day got to experience what life is like in most of the rest of the world. And they still won't shut up about it.

This remark was totally uncalled for.

[jbg]

This remark was totally uncalled for.

American Woman, you're right. Apparently, though, former Prime Minister Chretien agreed with Black Dog on this (link). Excerpts:

"It's always the problem when you read history -- everybody doesn't know when to stop. There's a moment when you have to stop, there's a moment when you are very powerful..."

"I do think that the Western world is getting too rich in relations to the poor world..."

"And necessarily, we're looked upon as being arrogant, self-satisfied, greedy and with no limits. And the 11th of September is an occasion for me to realize it even more...."

"I told them: When you are powerful like you are, you guys, it's the time to be nice..."

"And it is one of the problems -- you cannot exercise your powers to the point of humiliation of the others.

"And that is what the Western world -- not only the Americans but the Western world -- has to realize."

[Guest coot]

.

Edited September 12, 2007 by coot

[Guest coot]

This remark was totally uncalled for.

And yet it is so true.

[moderateamericain]

It is with a sad heart that one more brave soul that I know has passed away. NCO Brandon Moore came from Lumberton North Carolina. When I met him, he was nothing more then a piss in the wind private. I still remember the last time I saw him before i left active duty. He got so drink he quite litterly shit his pants passed out on the bathroom floor. Brandon came from a broken home. Just another Black man who's father barely acknowledged his exsistance. Joining the military was the best decision he ever made because it gave his life direction and meaning. When is mother called me last night to inform me of his death, I could not believe it. But I know in my heart that he died protecting something that he firmly believed in. He said to me on several occasions, "People back home don't understand what we are doing over here, they only see what they are allowed to see."

If you believe in a diety, please pray for Brandon. A good man and a fine warrior.

[Black Dog]

I didn't call for indiscriminate slaughter and you know it.

Sure you did. Twice. First, your favourable invocation of Hiroshima (which was an intentional attack on a civilian population centre) and then when you expressed your frustration with western concern over civilian casualties. Nor is this the first time you've gone down this road.

In any case,

But my point was that Japan seems to have understood that its leaders provoked Hiroshima and now, aside from the English-speaking countries Japan is the US's closest ally (Israel I consider to be English-speaking).

Well for starters, Japan was the aggressor state, whereas the 9-11 attacks were carried out by individuals. The only way there's any comparison to be made is if you regard all Muslims as enemies. Which, I guess, you probably do. Second, Japan was the beneficiary of a massive reconstruction and democratization program. The U.S's primary response to 9-11 was to invade and occupy a country that had nothing to do with the attacks. I could go on, but I think it's obvious that the claim that "nukes make friends" is straight from cloud cuckoo land.

sharkman:

Talk about only hearing one side of the story. Why oh why did the Iraqi people suffer so badly under that time? Because the U.N. permitted the weapons inspectors to lop off Iraqi heads as they went about their business? Uh no, it was even though the U.N. bent over frickin backwards to get food and aid to the people in the FOOD FOR OIL PROGRAMS, Saddam and his henchmen didn't bother to help their own people.

You may have danced a jig on 9/11, I don't really care. But spare us all your crap please.

See my response to geoffery. Saddam was a mnonster who's only concern was holding on to power. He didn't give a flying f**k about his people, yet the authours of the sanctions seemed to believe that making the people suffer would cause Saddam to fall in line. In the end, all the sanctions accomplished was the compounding of the misery of the Iraqi people, who, as citizens of a brutal dictatorship, bore no responsibility for the crimes of the regime.

AW

This remark was totally uncalled for.

First, the title of the thread is "September 11, 2001 – Thoughts on an Anniversary." Well, those are my thoughts. Americans tend to act as though 9-11 was Teh Worst Atrocity Evah. It is nowhere close.

[M.Dancer]

Let the snivelling moral equivalencies begin!!!

[Drea]

Let the snivelling moral equivalencies begin!!!

... because NO ONE ON EARTH has ever suffered like New Yorkers on that fateful day. NO ONE EVER! /sarcasm

While I empathize with those who lived through the demolition, and those who had family/friends die... it in no way is the worst disaster to ever occur.

The worst part is that it was the catalyst that changed the internal attitude of the USA and it changed how the world views the USA.

It has been used over and over and over and over again to instill fear into the populace - sadly, it worked.

IF (giant if) OBL was responsible... he won, and sadly the result is that USians are no longer "free".

Edited September 12, 2007 by Drea

[M.Dancer]

... because NO ONE ON EARTH has ever suffered like New Yorkers on that fateful day. NO ONE EVER! /sarcasm

While I empathize with those who lived through the demolition, and those who had family/friends die... it in no way is the worst disaster to ever occur.

Which is all pretty irrelevant. Did you send messages to Thailand and Sri Lanka telling them that while the tsunami was bad, The eruption of Krakatoa was far worse? How about the next anniversary of Hiroshima? Something like, get over it, far more died during the Tokyo bombings?

No one is saying 911 is the worst thing to happen, yet the snivelling moral equivelency crowd never fail to remind everyone that others have died......

[M.Dancer]

......, and sadly the result is that USians are no longer "free".

Of cripes!!

Is there some large repository of nonsense where people go to get this stuff?

[Leafless]

Well for starters, Japan was the aggressor state, whereas the 9-11 attacks were carried out by individuals.

Japanese are individuals to, just like individual Muslims are, from different States, are under the aggressive leadership of ALLAH.

[moderateamericain]

Japanese are individuals to, just like individual Muslims are, from different States, are under the aggressive leadership of Religious lunatics.

Careful there, I doubt Allah sanctions terrorism.

And Blackdog, man did you drink some bad coffee today? Ive never seen you so aggressive to attack a poster. Regardless of what you believe about him do we need to decend to the level of personal attacks? That goes for both of you.

Edited September 12, 2007 by moderateamericain

[Black Dog]

Japanese are individuals to, just like individual Muslims are, from different States, are under the aggressive leadership of ALLAH.

Tell you what, then: why don't you work on bringing this Allah character to justice.

ModAm

And Blackdog, man did you drink some bad coffee today? Ive never seen you so aggressive to attack a poster. Regardless of what you believe about him do we need to decend to the level of personal attacks? That goes for both of you.

Thing is, the O.P. opned that can of worms when he decided to make himself part of the argument by invoking his alleged liberalism. In any case, I should point out that I'm going after the ideas here, specifically the idea that western liberal democratic values are best defended by being abandoned.

Edited September 12, 2007 by Black Dog