About Wal-Mart

[Argus]

Oh and the only responsibility a corporation has is to its shareholders. If that means being moral to increase business, so be it, but if that means being moral to the point of adversely affecting the bottom line, then no.

This is true. On the other hand, if you are running a small town or city, and Wal-Mart comes calling, your obligation is to protect the town. Do you want a thriving main street filled with small shops and businesses employing lots of people, or do you want your downtown to be full of boarded up buildings because everyone goes to shop at the Wal-Mart super store on the edge of town?

[Argus]

Destroys retail union jobs perhaps.

btu that's it.

That's the CUPE member in you talking Argus.

First: I'm not a member of CUPE.

Second: I'm a business graduate. I believe in Capitalism and free enterprise. Much of Wal-Mart's operations are admirable on a purely capitalistic sense. However, the results for others, for local communities, is not so admirable. They treat their employees like crap, their customers like cattle, and their suppliers like the local mafia protection racket. They are also heavily involved in the sales of goods built in slave labour camps, and in persuading (heavily pressuring) suppliers to relocate to China.

[Argus]

Actually, people are ganging up on your ideas.

The point you're making is that a corporation should have a moral conscience. Everyone else is saying that a corporation is not capable of having morals, it's not a person. A corporation is motivated only by what gives the shareholders the maximum return on their investment.

You're correct. Corporations have no moral conscience. That is why we bind them with laws, so that outfits like Wal-Mart can't force unpaid overtime on their employees or hire underage children or illegal aliens because they're cheaper and more docile. Well, Wal-Mart does all this, of course, but they're repeatedly caught and fined.

If Wal-Mart could get away with it their retail employees would consist entirely of political prisoners loaned to them by the Chinese government from the slave labour camps where they are currently producing cheap shoes and clothing for Wal-Mart.

I have seen nothing to indicate Wal-Mart would not use slaves if they were permitted to do so.

[cybercoma]

This is true. On the other hand, if you are running a small town or city, and Wal-Mart comes calling, your obligation is to protect the town. Do you want a thriving main street filled with small shops and businesses employing lots of people, or do you want your downtown to be full of boarded up buildings because everyone goes to shop at the Wal-Mart super store on the edge of town?

I want my community to have the choice. If people choose to shop at Wal-Mart instead of the Main St shops, then obviously the Main St. shopowners are not doing enough to attract or retain business. But, at the end of the day, the choice should be up to the people in the town and they will choose where they want to shop with their dollars and their job applications.

You make it sound like Wal-Mart destroys communities and no one has posted any clear evidence of that. The Main St. shops may employ one or two people a piece. Say there are 100 shops, that's about 200 people working on Main St. Wal-Mart would employ that many people alone. The notion that they're lower paying jobs is completely false. I'm certain someone working in a small shop downtown would make less money than someone working fulltime at Wal-Mart with benefits.

Wal-Mart not only makes the quality of life for these employees better, but it makes the lower income earners in the community able to afford more, thereby making their quality of life better. There will still be a need for the downtown shops provided they find a niche and run their businesses well. When people want specialized knowledge on something, they will go to a shop that caters specifically to that something, not Wal-Mart. If the small shop hires and retains employees that provide excellent service to customers and are very knowledgeable, they'll have no problems.

But at the end of the day, who wants to pay $1999 for a plasma TV at the local TV shop, when you can get the exact same model at Future Shop for $1599. That's just bad business on the part of the shop owner and as such, people will decide where they want to shop with their dollars.

[cybercoma]

You're correct. Corporations have no moral conscience. That is why we bind them with laws, so that outfits like Wal-Mart can't force unpaid overtime on their employees or hire underage children or illegal aliens because they're cheaper and more docile. Well, Wal-Mart does all this, of course, but they're repeatedly caught and fined.

Do you care to provide references per the forum rules and guidelines to your accusation? I would like to see the article that shows this is a systemic issue with the Wal-Mart corporation and not illegal actions taken by local store managers which are out of compliance with Wal-Mart's Standard Operating Procedure codes.

I can't even understand how the unpaid overtime thing is possible, when they have a punch clock and everything is run through computers at their corporate head offices. It has been a case in the retail stores that I've worked in where department supervisors would punch out and continue to work and when the store managers found out they would give them hell for being so stupid as to do something that is illegal.

Hiring underage children is illegal and unless the job applicant lied about their age, which you're not allowed to ask according to most laws in most states and in Canada, I can't see how that's possible. In Home Depot's case, it is considered a warehouse environment and according to Canadian labour laws you must be 18 or older to work there. We constantly had to tell applicants at job fairs, "we will not ask your age, but everyone needs to be aware that Canadian law makes it illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to work in a warehouse environment such as Home Depot." That's anecdotal, but once again, I don't see how this could be a systemic problem where managers were operating under the direction of their corporate head office. Instead, it's more likely that these kids were lying about their age to get into a retail job that pays better than almost all the others.

The illegal alien issue, especially in the US, is a complicated issue; however, an employees assigned badge number at stores like Wal-Mart and Home Depot is usually their Social Security Number. An illegal alien would be unable to obtain a SSN, so I don't see how they'd be employable. Now, it may be a case of the janitorial staff that cleans Wal-Mart has illegal aliens on their crew; however, those are outside companies that bid on contracts for Wal-Mart and as such, Wal-Mart has no responsibility for their hiring practices.

Please provide references to correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be interested to see these illegal activities being taken to court and Wal-Mart losing the battle. I can't seem to find anything on the internet about it though.

[scribblet]

This is true. On the other hand, if you are running a small town or city, and Wal-Mart comes calling, your obligation is to protect the town. Do you want a thriving main street filled with small shops and businesses employing lots of people, or do you want your downtown to be full of boarded up buildings because everyone goes to shop at the Wal-Mart super store on the edge of town?

Walmart came to my smallish town a while ago, same old arguments about the main st. etc. There is little of anything on Main St. that I want or need; unless I'm in the market for a lot of country pine stuff, the usual. The only place I shop at on our Main St. is a decent clothing store, and a bakery.

I don't love nor hate Walmart, I will choose to shop there if I need something and it's cheaper; I should have that choice. And yes, Walmart does employ a lot of seniors there who couldn't find part time employment downtown.

What this really is, is a campaign of demonization by pro unionists. Even Walmart haters must recognize that we cannot outlaw competition, even to protect mom and pop business.

[M.Dancer]

M Dancer. I don’t mean to disrespect Quesnel. But it is true.

I was up there in July and it is shrinking.

I will say your anecdotal observations are a crock.

Quesnel Population (1993) 8,217

Quesnel Population (2003) 10, 198

http://www.equesnel.com/Statistics.asp

[M.Dancer]

As far as being a corporate citizen… WalMart does less than a good many small businesses that I work with here in the Lower Mainland.

Cheers!

more anecdotal non facts?

Wal-Mart opens its doors to Red Cross supporters

(Prince George, BC – August 3, 2007) - Wal-Mart Canada announced today that stores nationwide will be raising much-needed funds for Canadian Red Cross disaster preparedness and response. The campaign, which runs from August 9 until September 2 in all 292 outlets coast-to-coast, is expected to raise $1 million.

During the three-week campaign, customers are invited to donate a loonie at the cash registers to support this important cause. Northern BC & Yukon residents may make their donation at participating Wal-Mart stores located in Prince George, Terrace, Dawson Creek, Quesnel, Fort St. John and Whitehorse.

Funds raised during this campaign will help to provide urgently needed relief items during disasters and beyond. Additionally, Wal-Mart’s sponsorship helps Canadian Red Cross keep stockpiles of emergency supplies such as blankets and hygiene kits which include toothbrushes, soap and other toiletries.

http://www.redcross.ca/article.asp?id=023601&tid=077

Good.Works.

Wal-Mart has a long history of involvement in the communities we serve. We’re committed to the community and its people, because we live here too. Wal-Mart Canada operates one of the country's strongest community involvement programs, focused on donating and raising money and increasing awareness for Canadian charities and organizations in need. Since 1994, Wal-Mart Canada and its associates have raised and donated more than $50 million to Canadian organizations through the Good Works

program.

Some of the programs we support include: Children’s Miracle Network (CMN), Wal-Mart's Local Matching Grant program, Breakfast Clubs of Canada, Canadian Red Cross and other local organizations responding to natural disasters, Adopt-a-School Program, The Wal-Mart Missing Children's Program in association with the RCMP, The Code Adam Child Recovery Program, and theWal-Mart Scholarship Program. One of our proudest moments was our contribution to Canadian Veterans and the Grand Opening of the Juno Beach Centre in Normandy, France, to commemorate Canada’s contribution to World War II.

http://www.walmart.ca/wps-portal/storeloca...content=ourcomm

[Drea]

I will say your anecdotal observations are a crock.

Quesnel Population (1993) 8,217

Quesnel Population (2003) 10, 198

http://www.equesnel.com/Statistics.asp

Less than 2000 people in a 10 year period... gooood example

Where I live now there are >3000 people moving in per year. No stats for you as I am unwiling to tell you exactly where in the Lower Mainland I live, you could be a stalker!

Why not just drive up to the Cariboo and see for yourself.

When I went to school there (70's - 80's) there were 2 junior highs and 2 seniors highs. Now there are only two high schools.

The elementary school I went to has closed.

Went searching for BC Population comparison from 1990 to now but didn't have any luck.

[Renegade]

Less than 2000 people in a 10 year period... gooood example

Hang on now, Drea. The lack of more significant population growth can hardly be attribtuted to Walmart.

In 1978, the popultion was 8,031. In 1994, (the year Walmart came to Canada) the population was 8,497. That seems to indicate that in the almost 20 years prior to the introduction of Walmart*, the population was stablle and not high-growth.

*I don't know when the Walmart store opened in Quesnel, so I'm assuming worst case it was the year it came to Canada.

BTW, how can you fault Dancer on the choice of Quesnel as an example, when it was YOUR example.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Renegade

[M.Dancer]

Less than 2000 people in a 10 year period... gooood example

It's a great example. It's the 20% growth in 10 year example. It's the nail in a coffin example. It's a fact vs an uniformed opinion example. It's the example that casts the lie to this ridiculous statement

Quesnel's population is shrinking

....example.

[Drea]

WalMart came to Quesnel well after I left. I believe it was in 2000/01.

The reason I used Quesnel as an example is that I was just up there, it's my home town and it is decaying. Matter of fact, hubby and I were just discussing buying some acreage up there because it's cheap.

BTW, I don't hate WalMart (or any other big box store in the right context), I shop there.

Edited August 9, 2007 by Drea

[M.Dancer]

WalMart came to Quesnel well after I left. I believe it was in 2000/01.

The reason I used Quesnel as an example is that I was just up there, it's my home town and it is decaying.

Are you a masochist?

In Depth

Three Towns Quesnel: Part I

Racing against the pine beetle time bomb

Last Updated April 4, 2007

by Amanda Ryder, CBC News

Businesses are thriving, new jobs are springing up and the economy has never been better in Quesnel, in the Cariboo Region of the B.C. Interior.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/threetowns/quesnel-1.html

[Drea]

sure quote the CBC! I thought you rightwingers hated the CBC!?

If you are in BC or AB -- DRIVE UP THERE for pete sake. See for yourself. Frig if I would've known I'd be discussing this I would have taken a bunch of pictures of the filth, the decay, the boarded up buildings.

Who are you going to believe -- the CBC? the Cariboo Regional District propaganda site? Or a person who WAS JUST THERE IN PERSON.

Have you ever been out of your basement? The world is REAL hon. People actually do drive vehicles and actually do go into real buildings. The world is NOT virtual. Sometimes you need to SEE something for yourself with your own eyes (for REAL, not on a TV or computer screen)

A masochist? Huh? Have you never returned to your hometown after leaving or do you burn all your bridges?

Edited August 9, 2007 by Drea

[M.Dancer]

More Quesnel fun.......

Since 1996, the population of the Quesnel and area has remained about the same. It declined slightly in the 1990s and has grown slightly since 2002.

Pop Up, retail employment...UP

Retail trade

Employees (2001)_ 565 11.3%

Employess (1996) 465 11.3%

Pop Up, educational services....UP

Employees (2001) 505 10.1%

Employees (1996) 215 5.2%

Source: BC Stats, Community Fact Sheets, 2001 & 1996

http://www.quesnelinfo.com/Community%20Pro...June%202005.pdf

[M.Dancer]

sure quote the CBC! I thought you rightwingers hated the CBC!?

Somehow I expect everything you know could dance a polka on the head of a pin.

[M.Dancer]

By the way the population of downtown is 8,000. Including the surrounding area (miles of rural space including Native reserves, etc.) there are approx. 15,000.

I used to live there I am not making this up.

As the documented facts indicate, you are makingit up as you go.

How come you haven't gone snakey about Canadian Tire?

[Drea]

I live in the real world and see things with my own eyes. That's all I'm sayin'.

I was there. Believe me or not. Your prob not mine.

Gotta go -- I've got propaganda to sell!

Cheers!

[M.Dancer]

I live in the real world and see things with my own eyes.

Cheers!

Would you like the number of a good optometrist in Quesnel?

[White Doors]

Would you like the number of a good optometrist in Quesnel?

hahahaha

Wow, I haven't seen anyone get tossed around in a debate so thoroughly in a loooong time.

good times!

Edited August 9, 2007 by White Doors

[Drea]

I'm baaack.

and I see the five year olds are having fun fun fun!

[White Doors]

Morris, what's the definition of insanity again?

[M.Dancer]

Morris, what's the definition of insanity again?

Hold on..I have to wait for my lithium to kick in.....

[Argus]

I want my community to have the choice. If people choose to shop at Wal-Mart instead of the Main St shops, then obviously the Main St. shopowners are not doing enough to attract or retain business. But, at the end of the day, the choice should be up to the people in the town and they will choose where they want to shop with their dollars and their job applications.

Do we give people a choice whether they want to have strip clubs on main street? Do we give them the choice of watching X-rated television on the public airwaves? Do we allow people to choose to wear their set belts or not? We, in creating our cities, impose a mass of rules and regulations which we believe are in the best interests of the city as a whole. That includes, among other things, height restrictions, and where you can put commercial vs residential developments. It includes all kinds of restrictions on what choice people, developers, and retailers can make. I don't see this as any different. If it is seen as not being in the best overall interest of the community to have a Wal-Mart then that's that.

Wal-Mart not only makes the quality of life for these employees better,

Mmm, I have to say up front I knew a couple of Wal-Mart employees, and neither had anything good to say about working there. And Wal-Mart's habit of not hiring full-time whenever they can get away with it, of employing people for six months to a year, and then making them "reapply" to work again so as to not be considered permanent employees really grates on me. So too does their habit of giving people less than full-time hours, without any kind of protected schedule. You might work twenty hours this week, or thirty, but definitely not forty, because Wal-mart wants you to be on the edge of your seat, anxious to please at all times, and it wants to always have lots of "floating staff" who can be called in at any time with little notice.

but it makes the lower income earners in the community able to afford more

,

I'll give you that. Of course, thanks to Wal-Mart's avid encouragement of its suppliers to close their north American operations and relocate production to China there are a lot more lower income earners out there, right?

But at the end of the day, who wants to pay $1999 for a plasma TV at the local TV shop, when you can get the exact same model at Future Shop for $1599. .

Well, nobody. But people don't hate Future Shop either. I wonder why that is.

[Argus]

Do you care to provide references per the forum rules and guidelines to your accusation?

First, I don't believe there is any forum rule requiring citations to support ANYTHING.

Second, I believe numerous citations have already been posted, nor is evidence hard to find on the internet.

This talks about Wal-Mart's cozy deal with the Labour department to avoid prosecution for child labour violations, for example.

Washington Post

This is a followup showing little has changed Wal-Mart and children

This talks about the lawsuits Wal-Mart is facing for forcing unpaid overtime on employees CTV news

There's a whole passel of other stuff, including illegal aliens, illegal surveilance and intimidation of workers, etc, here Wal-Mart facts

And anecdotally, the people I know who worked for them said that you did whatever you were told and didn't complain, or your hours were cut, and ultimately, you weren't allowed to "reapply" for your job.