About Wal-Mart

[cybercoma]

WalMart came to Quesnel well after I left. I believe it was in 2000/01.

The reason I used Quesnel as an example is that I was just up there, it's my home town and it is decaying. Matter of fact, hubby and I were just discussing buying some acreage up there because it's cheap.

BTW, I don't hate WalMart (or any other big box store in the right context), I shop there.

Did you leave Quesnel becaue there's a Wal-Mart there, or do people leave for other reasons?

[cybercoma]

First, I don't believe there is any forum rule requiring citations to support ANYTHING.

It's not a rule, it's a guideline. If you're going to bring facts to the table, it's your responsibility to show references to the facts you're presenting. I'm not going to take your word or your friend of a friend's word on working condition at Wal-Mart.

The link is at the top of the page under Forum Rules and Guidelines:

RESEARCH YOUR POST

If you are stating a fact, be prepared to back it up with some official sources (websites, links etc).

It's not a rule, but it is courteous to cite examples so the people reading the post can see the examples for themselves.

Second, I believe numerous citations have already been posted, nor is evidence hard to find on the internet.

Regardless, I appreciate you posting the following links to backup what you're claiming.

This talks about Wal-Mart's cozy deal with the Labour department to avoid prosecution for child labour violations, for example.

Washington Post

This is a followup showing little has changed Wal-Mart and children

The Washington Post article is very unclear on what the child labour violations are, other than this part of the article:

Wal-Mart agreed in January to pay a federal fine of $135,540 for child labor violations in which 85 minors operated hazardous equipment at stores in Connecticut, New Hampshire and Arkansas. The investigations into violations occurred from October 1998 through April 2002.

Although they don't get into details about the case, I have feeling it's pertaining to forklift equipment and cardboard/garbage bailers. In Canada it is illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to operate forklift equipment, or the cardboard or garbage compactors in retail buildings. I have a feeling the same laws probably pertain to those 3 states as well.

Unfortunately, it does not appear that Wal-Mart is hiring 9 year olds to stock shelves. Although that's not what you said, your level of disgust with Wal-Mart would indicate those are the kind of practices you're perceiving. This likely isn't the case. Chances are 17 year olds were caught operating battery powered lift equipment, not to mention it was only a problem in 3 out of 50 States and there's no mention of it occurring in its Canadian division or anywhere else for that matter.

Now that I've read the followup article you posted, it has made it a little clearer:

In the Putnam store, three children younger than 18 had operated power-driven balers and compactors. None of them was injured.

I don't know if you've ever operated those machines, but the safety devices on them make them idiot proof. Toss the garbage in, shut the door, push the button... the door opens and the bailer stops, the guards aren't in place and the compactor doesn't operate. The age limitation would appear to be entirely arbitrary and I imagine there are 16 and 17 year olds working in malls and shopping centers all over Canada and the US operating the same equipment, happily unaware that they and their employer are breaking the law.

Furthermore the article goes on to state that most of the problems were primarily in a single state, Connecticut:

The violations spanned four years and involved at least 80 minors using machinery such as chainsaws and forklifts that are deemed hazardous under federal labor law. Those violations occurred in 25 stores, 21 of them in Connecticut.

It seems odd that a retailer that has stores nationwide and in Canada has had 21 out of 25 infractions in a single state. The article also goes on to show that McDonald's and Dunkin Donuts are far bigger violators of child wage and hour laws. Taking a look at the Connecticut Department of Labour website, one can see why there's so much confusion regarding workers that are 16 & 17.

Retail/Mercantile - During school weeks:

* 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. (11 p.m. if school vacation/not prior to a school day/not attending school/ 12:00 midnight in a supermarket, if 3500 square feet, when no school the next day)

* 6 hours per day/32 hours per week

* 8 hours per day on Friday, Saturday, Sunday

Retail/Mercantile - During non-school weeks:

* 8 hours per day/48 hours per week

* 6 days per week

http://www.ctdol.state.ct.us/wgwkstnd/minors/wgtime.htm

Wal-Mart shouldn't have got this one wrong. They should be aware of local labour laws and follow them accordingly; however, it's easy to see how stores in Connecticut could be getting it wrong. Especially when closing shifts at Wal-Mart stores end at 11pm.

This talks about the lawsuits Wal-Mart is facing for forcing unpaid overtime on employees CTV news

Once again, that's management at certain locations acting like idiots. This is not a corporate problem that is from the top down. Their head office has made this clear:

"Off-the-clock work is an infrequent and isolated problem, which we correct whenever we become aware of it," Wal-Mart said in a statement. "It is Wal-Mart's policy to pay its employees properly for the hours they work."

I'll tell you what they do though. I know from experience that Home Depot and Wal-Mart both force their employees to leave early or take longer lunches during a week if it appears they are going to have overtime. They do not want to pay out overtime hours and it happens easily when you get helping customers and its near the end of your shift. Technically, the employee should be given 1.5 pay or 1.5 off in another week in lieu of pay. They don't do this and although they're not exactly breaking the law by asking associates to leave early or take a longer lunch hour, they're certainly bending the rules.

This is hardly a problem worth complaining about though. It's not like they're having people work 75 hour work weeks and only paying them for 20.

There's a whole passel of other stuff, including illegal aliens, illegal surveilance and intimidation of workers, etc, here Wal-Mart facts

As for your "facts" about Wal-Mart, they're so deceiving and in some cases outright dishonest, that Wal-Mart setup its own website to address the claims made by Greenwald's movie:

http://walmartfacts.com

Feel free to peruse that if you wish. One of the articles shows how Wal-Mart voluntarily went to the Department of Labour because it wasn't adding up overtime properly. They went to the DoL, the corrections were made and the associates are being paid out.

Doesn't sound like the corporation is trying to get away with underhanded things at all costs to me.

[betsy]

First, I don't believe there is any forum rule requiring citations to support ANYTHING.

Second, I believe numerous citations have already been posted, nor is evidence hard to find on the internet.

This talks about Wal-Mart's cozy deal with the Labour department to avoid prosecution for child labour violations, for example.

Washington Post

This is a followup showing little has changed Wal-Mart and children

This talks about the lawsuits Wal-Mart is facing for forcing unpaid overtime on employees CTV news

There's a whole passel of other stuff, including illegal aliens, illegal surveilance and intimidation of workers, etc, here Wal-Mart facts

And anecdotally, the people I know who worked for them said that you did whatever you were told and didn't complain, or your hours were cut, and ultimately, you weren't allowed to "reapply" for your job.

But how do you explain the fact that Wal-Mart had been voted as one of the top 50 Best Employers in Canada for several consecutive years?

[betsy]

Oh of course it does. It destroys them in several ways. First, it wipes out smaller retail outlets with its ruthless efficiency, buying power and predatory pricing.

Years ago, I remember Sears offering services that a lot of small businesses operate such as carpet-installing, vent cleaning, carpet and upholstery cleaning and I thought about those that will get wiped out.

Then Independent Stores start offering ready-to-eat food take-home, per slice pizzas, bbq chicken etc..., and I thought of all those little independently owned little restaurants and pizza outlets that not only had to contend with the cost of marketing and promotion to compete with giants like Pizza Pizza, Pizza Hut etc.., but now even had to compete with grocery stores for every nickle and dime....and all these big places have the clout and buying power!

Wal-Mart is not the only one doing these and yet it is being singled out. Just like McDonald's was and is still being singled out when it comes to fastfoods.

Btw, most of the detractors of WalMart are Union-backed groups.

Yes, it hires people, but not as many as lost their jobs in outlets they ran out of business. Second, its practice has long been to bring in small to mid-size suppliers, get them "hooked" on Wal-Mart sales to the point where they likely can't survive if Wal-Mart cuts them off, and then demand they cut prices beyond what is sustainable given their present operations. Wal-Mart has an entire group of marketing and sales specialists whose job it is to help suppliers relocate to China. And that is the third way Wal-Mart kills jobs. Wal-Mart pioneered the importation of ultra-cheap goods from China in massive numbers - including from slave labour camps - and more than 90% of what they sell comes from China.

Wouldn't you think that the biggest job-killer in Canada is the Union? Not only do companies close down and move elsewhere - it also makes other companies think thrice before opening up here when we have to compete with other places like China, Mexico etc..,

Hershey moved out of Ontario. The employees protested - like as if protesting will stop any companies from closing down!

Whether we like it or not, reality is we have all these other countries to compete with! The only way we can truly compete right now is through quality imho.

We won't be able to change the cultures of other nations....we can't even get China to respect human rights or Mexico to stop their corruptive way of life, any more than really expect them to truly crack down on sweatshops that are feeding poor families!

I've worked at the Hospital and I tell you I feel for employers who has to tangle with the Union and practically at the mercy of their employees! While it is good to have protection....some of the demands and agreements of the Union stifle the business!

Who wants to invest millions of dollars with no worthwhile profits??? Who are we to dictate how much profit a company makes?

We have labour laws in place. That's all we need!

The government just have to make sure these labour laws and practices are fair - protecting BOTH employees AND employers - and ensure that they are strictly enforced!

Socialist mentalities and attitudes being nurtured by the NDP and other communist-leaning idealogies need to change and adapt to the present times.

Our competition (other countries) are gungho and ruthless as well in trying to get these companies to set up in their own backyards.

What are we going to do about it. That's what we should be thinking about.

Edited August 10, 2007 by betsy

[Drea]

Did you leave Quesnel becaue there's a Wal-Mart there, or do people leave for other reasons?

I left in 1987 well before WalMart was even a thought. I left to go to college. Like many other young folks I wanted to leave my boring old home town

Now that I am middle age (ack!) I would relish a quiet town to live in. But alas! I am stuck in the city because of my job.

see some folks don't want WalMart

Demonstrations greet Wal-Mart's India plans

Traders protest against Wal-Mart entry into retail sector

Student organizes rally against new Wal-Mart in White Plains

Edited August 10, 2007 by Drea

[betsy]

I left in 1987 well before WalMart was even a thought. I left to go to college. Like many other young folks I wanted to leave my boring old home town

Now that I am middle age (ack!) I would relish a quiet town to live in. But alas! I am stuck in the city because of my job.

see some folks don't want WalMart

Demonstrations greet Wal-Mart's India plans

Traders protest against Wal-Mart entry into retail sector

Student organizes rally against new Wal-Mart in White Plains

WalMart had to pull out of two countries I think (South Korea and Germany) - and if I'm not mistaken, would you believe - because of stiff competiton!

WakeupWalmart.com I think is Union-backed. Students had always had the penchant for leaning towards socialism and communism! What youth doesn't have an "ideal" world?

[Drea]

WalMart had to pull out of two countries I think (South Korea and Germany) - and if I'm not mistaken, would you believe - because of stiff competiton!

Got a link?

WakeupWalmart.com I think is Union-backed. Students had always had the penchant for leaning towards socialism and communism! What youth doesn't have an "ideal" world?

Booga booga! Commies! Aliens! Terrorists! Muslims! Socialists! Unionists! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!

/kidding

have a good day Betsy.

[Argus]

But how do you explain the fact that Wal-Mart had been voted as one of the top 50 Best Employers in Canada for several consecutive years?

Who determines this? I have never heard anyone say that Wal-Mart is a good employer.

[M.Dancer]

Who determines this? I have never heard anyone say that Wal-Mart is a good employer.

Globe and Mail survey of employees.

Our partner, again, is Hewitt Associates, North America's largest human resources consulting firm. We began in March, 2003, by sending out invitations to more than 2,500 organizations with at least 300 employees. Hewitt received completed surveys from 129 companies, up from 62 in 2000, our first ranking

The 2007 ranking

34 Wal-Mart Canada Corp. (5) Mississauga ON

the 2006 ranking

21 Wal-Mart Canada Corp. (4)

http://was7.hewitt.com/bestemployers/canada/best.htm

My manager (the person I report to) provides the support I need to succeed"

1 Flight Centre

2 Cintas Canada

3 BC Biomedical Laboratories

4 Hoffmann-La Roche

5 Wal-Mart Canada

Best Career Opportunities

"My future career opportunities here look good"

1 Flight Centre

2 Cintas Canada (tied)

2 EllisDon (tied)

2 Wal-Mart Canada (tied)

3 BC Biomedical Laboratories

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...TPBusiness/ROBM

[Argus]

Furthermre the article goes on to state that most of the problems were primarily in a single state, Connecticut:

It seems odd that a retailer that has stores nationwide and in Canada has had 21 out of 25 infractions in a single state.

Well, there are several possible reasons. One is that the investigator in that state was more thorough, or that the stores inn that state were more careless. We've seen in the cozy agreement Wal-mart now has with the Labour department that they must be notified now well before an investigation can be launched. That gives them time to cover up any abuses. As for Canada, we don't know there has ever been an investigation, as our government has been notoriously slack in such matters where wealthy corporations are concerned.

This is hardly a problem worth complaining about though. It's not like they're having people work 75 hour work weeks and only paying them for 20.

As for your "facts" about Wal-Mart, they're so deceiving and in some cases outright dishonest, that Wal-Mart setup its own website to address the claims made by Greenwald's movie:

http://walmartfacts.com

Feel free to peruse that if you wish.

Yes, corporate pages are well known for giving us the straight facts on their misdeeds. I'm sure they'll easily explain why Wal-Mart blackmails their suppliers and forces them to ship production to China, or why they feel it's in the best interest of their employees to force them to be "re-hired" every six months to a year, and why they don't give them full time hours and why their health care in the US is so lousy compared to other retail outlets.

Personally, I simply feel that a retail outlet which has so little respect for their customers they habitually keep half or three quarters of their cashes closed in order to have long lineups is one which I will stay away from. I don't know about you, but I don't value a twenty cent discount enough to spend twenty minutes in a line paying for an item.

[Argus]

Globe and Mail survey of employees.

The 2007 ranking

34 Wal-Mart Canada Corp. (5) Mississauga ON

the 2006 ranking

21 Wal-Mart Canada Corp. (4)

http://was7.hewitt.com/bestemployers/canada/best.htm

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Art...TPBusiness/ROBM

Neither of your links work. And I don't believe it for a second.

The methodology involved in this study can easily lead to fraudulent results. Employers must elect to participate, and are involved in providing lists of employees and in handing out and collecting and forwarding the surveys. Hewitt does not itself go anywhere near the employer's premises or speak to any employees. An organization like Wal-Mart, which has been widely accused of often illegal surveillance of employees, an organization known to gather employees together to watch propaganda films about how great Wal-mart is, the dangers of union involvement, and the dangers of stealing from Wal-mart, etc, such an organization which is widely under attack for the way it mistreats employees would quite likely take steps to make sure that employees fill out these questionnaires with the appropriate answers.

[Argus]

Wal-Mart is not the only one doing these and yet it is being singled out. Just like McDonald's was and is still being singled out when it comes to fastfoods.

Perhaps it is walmart's singular ruthlessness, and the way it deals with employees and suppliers, as well as competitors which has caused them to be singled out.

Btw, most of the detractors of WalMart are Union-backed groups.

Do you know of a lot of organizations in Canada or the United States involved with workers rights which are NOT in some way backed or affiliated with unions?

Wouldn't you think that the biggest job-killer in Canada is the Union?

No, Betsy, I wouldn't, unless you believe that forcing employers to pay a liveable wage is a job killer. Yes, we could let the companies all pay is a dollar an hour with no benefits,and no doubt there'd be plenty of jobs, then. Is that what you think Canada should do?

Not only do companies close down and move elsewhere - it also makes other companies think thrice before opening up here when we have to compete with other places like China, Mexico etc..,

Indeed, the Olympics are coming in under budget in China. The workers constructing the stadium earned one hundred dollars per month. Unionized workers here would probably earn closer to four or five thousand dollars per month. Do you think we should lower wages to that of what the Chinese or Mexicans pay their workers? How much do you earn, Betsy? Would you be willing to take a 95% pay cut so Canada could be more competitive with the third world?

I've worked at the Hospital and I tell you I feel for employers who has to tangle with the Union and practically at the mercy of their employees! While it is good to have protection....some of the demands and agreements of the Union stifle the business!

Bad unions can cause trouble. But I've worked for bad employers without unions and that can be a nightmare too, of arbitrary changes to your job, your shift, your salary, no security, and at the mercy of arbitrary and unfair discipline as well.

Who wants to invest millions of dollars with no worthwhile profits??? Who are we to dictate how much profit a company makes?

Well, if you examine workers rights in Europe, I think you'll find they are far, far more generous than anything we have, and yet Europe continues to prosper.

[cybercoma]

Personally, I simply feel that a retail outlet which has so little respect for their customers they habitually keep half or three quarters of their cashes closed in order to have long lineups is one which I will stay away from. I don't know about you, but I don't value a twenty cent discount enough to spend twenty minutes in a line paying for an item.

This is the only thing in your entire post I can agree with. I regularly shop elsewhere for this exact reason. Everything else you posted is nothing more than conjecture.

[cybercoma]

Bad unions can cause trouble. But I've worked for bad employers without unions and that can be a nightmare too, of arbitrary changes to your job, your shift, your salary, no security, and at the mercy of arbitrary and unfair discipline as well.

You're not incorrect. Often times they'll switch employees to different departments without their consent, the scheduling in retail is terrible (the days off change every week and an employee will work every possible shift during a week), but I've never heard of anyone's salary being changed arbitrarily (other than during the review process, the raises seem to be entirely arbitrary), job security is not really a problem either as its very rare for someone to actually be fired from retail.

There are a few things that unions would be good for in retail. They're not going to change the way people are scheduled, since it is based on sales per hour and what employee coverage is needed during those hours. Unions aren't going to change the benefits because contrary to what you think you know, they're actually really quite good. But here are a few areas I think a union could help:

1) Wages based on experience: An employee who was hired yesterday could make the same wage as someone who has been with the company for 8 years. Experience within the company is not given any weight, which brings me to my next point...

2) Promotions: Employees are arbitrarily promoted in retail. Everyone knows that the managers promote their buddies, but I think this kind of crap still happens in union shops anyway.

3) Discipline process: In the companies I've worked for, when an assistant store manager writes up an employee they have to get another manager to be a witness. As an associate, you have no one on your side as a witness. It's just you against two managers who corroborate their story beforehand.

4) Scheduling: Although a union won't get retail workers consistent schedules, what they can prevent from happening are the split-shifts that part-time associates are often scheduled, being forced to kill overtime during the same week its accumulated and being scheduled to close the store then open the next morning.

I think these few things really need addressing in retail, but I'm really not sure if unions will even help.

[kuzadd]

here's a recent article re: wal-mart

rather a lengthy read.

http://www.thestar.com/article/245470

Woes mount for Wal-Mart

With growth, stock price and profits down, the retail giant once thought to be invincible finds itself on shaky ground

The company's growth rate has slowed to a crawl, overtaken by rivals once thought to be no match for the "beast of Bentonville." Average annual profit growth lags that of Target Corp., Costco Wholesale Corp. and other competitors. Wal-Mart's repeated efforts to push upscale merchandise have ended in tears. Expansion at home is still thwarted by hundreds of U.S. communities; and several forays abroad are struggling or have been scrapped. The stock price is down 32 per cent since the turn of the century, when CEO Lee Scott took the reins, while the Morgan Stanley retail index has soared 180 per cent.

Probably more ink has been spilled on Wal-Mart's phenomenal success than any firm save Microsoft Corp. But the firm turns out to be a one-trick pony. It's a discounter that thrives on selling high volumes of low-margin goods at knock-down prices in small-town monopoly or near-monopoly markets.

At home, meanwhile, Wal-Mart is caught in a squeeze between "cheap-chic" merchants like Target, H&M and Zara, whose higher-income clientele it has not been able to lure; and the proliferation of "dollar stores" and convenience marts nibbling away at its core customer base of 42 million lower-income shoppers.

re: worker abuses

Wal-Mart seems to be its own worst enemy in public relations. Already the target of class-action lawsuits from employees claiming to have been locked inside stores after closing time to perform extra work without pay, and the biggest sexual discrimination class-action suit in U.S. history, Wal-Mart's Threat Research and Assessment Group – set up to curb "shrinkage," or employee theft, and pro-union sentiments among employees – was found to have spied on company critics including consultants, irate shareholders, financial reporters and even members of the company's own board.

In May, Human Rights Watch, better known for raising alarms about civil-rights abuses in repressive regimes, accused Wal-Mart of violating labour laws.

a good read in it's entirety.

[betsy]

here's a recent article re: wal-mart

rather a lengthy read.

http://www.thestar.com/article/245470

Woes mount for Wal-Mart

With growth, stock price and profits down, the retail giant once thought to be invincible finds itself on shaky ground

re: worker abuses

a good read in it's entirety.

It's an interesting read. The alleged labour abuses are just that, so far - allegations. Unless I'm mistaken, no judgement had been rendered yet in court.

But it just shows you - competition is the key. Some stores are right there successfully competing with this giant.

Just imagine, WalMart even pulled out of Germany and South Korea!

Edited August 13, 2007 by betsy

[kuzadd]

It's an interesting read. The alleged labour abuses are just that, so far - allegations. Unless I'm mistaken, no judgement had been rendered yet in court.

But it just shows you - competition is the key. Some stores are right there successfully competing with this giant.

The labour abuses, pending before the courts, are irrelevant in the world of public relations, it is bad PR, to abuse ones workers, it is bad PR to have court cases pending, it is bad PR to have a human rights group make a statement of concern, wrt labour practices.

Wal-mart should know better.

[betsy]

The labour abuses, pending before the courts, are irrelevant in the world of public relations, it is bad PR, to abuse ones workers, it is bad PR to have court cases pending, it is bad PR to have a human rights group make a statement of concern, wrt labour practices.

Wal-mart should know better.

I agree bad PR hurts.

On the other hand, if a certain special interest group, or any specific group with an agenda or vested self-interest ever decide to target a particular company....getting a company facing allegations for whatever they can come up with is not that hard. In fact, it seems to become a trend that started with targetting McDonald's.

Then there are those who'd sue a company for monetary compensation. Was it Wendy's who got sued and then later on they found out the complainant had a history of doing this to other companies....of course, hoping for out-of-court settlements.

Bad PR hurts businesses. An enemy of a company only knows that too well.

My point is: Don't assume a company is evil just because of all the bad PR. Especially, in the case such as Wal-Mart when it had been voted as one of the Top 50 employers, and there are those who work for it who speak highly of it too.

Those "lock-ups" in high-crime areas....I think the management in those areas are also at a loss how to stop "inside-jobs", goods going out through the window so to speak. If safety is such a grave concern in an area, I guess it's judgement call. Delivery trucks have been hijacked and drivers killed for their contents, to be sold in the blackmarket. It's not farfetched to think that a place such as WalMart could be a target in a high-crime area.

Perhaps Wal-Mart should just nix getting into areas that have high-crime statistics.

Edited August 13, 2007 by betsy

[M.Dancer]

Neither of your links work. And I don't believe it for a second.

Work fine for me.

I suggest you read the methodologyu before you criticise

[Argus]

Work fine for me.

I suggest you read the methodologyu before you criticise

I did check the methodology. That is why I critisised it. Wal-Mart is a lousy place to work at any level. No one wants to work there. They work there because they believe they have few or no choices.

Telling me snow is hot and water is dry because some corporation arranged to have it named so is not going to change my mind.

[M.Dancer]

I did check the methodology. That is why I critisised it. Wal-Mart is a lousy place to work at any level. No one wants to work there. They work there because they believe they have few or no choices.

Telling me snow is hot and water is dry because some corporation arranged to have it named so is not going to change my mind.

How do you check methodology if the links didn't work?

[Argus]

How do you check methodology if the links didn't work?

I looked up the survey. It's all over the internet (unsurprisingly) and went to the home page of the company which conducted the survey.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Argus

[betsy]

I looked up the survey. It's all over the internet (unsurprisingly) and went to the home page of the company which conducted the survey.

Can you please provide the link to this particular survey you read? I'm interested...