Universities will provide Muslim footbaths

[marcinmoka]

We weren't allowed to be educated alongside their children

Perhaps. But more likely, Yiddish was the language of choice in jewish communities and their independent schools, as it was one fundamental unifying element which helped bond the community in times of duress and preserve their culture, since it was constantly under attack. That is, unless there was not even one person, amongst the millions of jews in the region, who knew the native tongue and was willing to teach it. Not to take the oomph out of your ancestors story. Nonetheless, they did overcome much adversity (antisemitism over there, antisemitism over here), I am just a stickler for details.

What was the context?

Hmmm.....the predictable "anti-Canadian pro-American no matter what the issue" tone of your posts.

I've even learned the language.

Congrats! All we need now, is to work on spelling.

[gc1765]

I am not demanding assimilation.

I could not care less if some guy wants to wear his pyjamas in public, wash his feet and pray on a rug facing east 5 times a day, watch soccer for entertainment, or any other odd and foreign behavior, so long as they don't impact upon me.

I figured as much. However, there are some people here who do appear to want immigrants to assimilate. If you look at my original comment, it was addressed to someone who appears to believe that immigrants should assimilate, but since I don't have any concrete examples of what assimilation actually entails, I thought I'd ask.

Surely you meant something when you wrote this. I would like you to tell us what. I am most insistent upon this.

I don't see why explaining this is contingent upon your understanding of other peoples' concept of adaptation; to me it appears that all that is required is your own concept of adapting. Surely you must have had your own concept of what "adapting" might mean when you suggested doing so.

Actually, it depends entirely on what other people mean when the say "assimilate". If they expect immigrants to watch hockey and eat poutine, I'd suggest why don't Canadians watch soccer and eat falafels, or watch anime and eat sushi? But I don't actually know if that's what people mean when they expect immigrants to assimilate and no one seems to want to explain.

Personally though, I don't give two cents what people eat, watch, worship etc. so long as they obey the law in doing so.

[jbg]

Perhaps. But more likely, Yiddish was the language of choice in jewish communities and their independent schools, as it was one fundamental unifying element which helped bond the community in times of duress and preserve their culture, since it was constantly under attack. That is, unless there was not even one person, amongst the millions of jews in the region, who knew the native tongue and was willing to teach it. Not to take the oomph out of your ancestors story. Nonetheless, they did overcome much adversity (antisemitism over there, antisemitism over here), I am just a stickler for details.

Not that I'm aware. When my ancestors came over, their first order of business was learning English. The kids were made to speak English among themselves.

[jbg]

Choose your Canada!!!

Maybe your geography is a little bit rusty, but last time I checked, the University of Michigan was NOT in Canada. It was in the land which excels in homogenizing it's immigrant populations, unlike our Indo-Islamic pandering nation. Nice try though!

I found it. While I used the Paul Martin ad, I meant the text of my response to apply to the US.

When we encourage multiculturalism, we're choosing the kind of country we want to be. Do we want a mush, or a country with a real identity.

[marcinmoka]

Do we want a mush, or a country with a real identity.

A natural identity of course. But this plays into my point. Does labeling one country as multicultural and one as unicultural make a tangible difference, or are these but empty words that have little or nothing to do with the actual integration of culturally diverse groups. Case in point, this foot bath issue is taking place in the U.S, a nation which claims to be culturally homogenizing, yet at my school, in multicultural Canada, had this issue come across, the reactions, be it from the public, the media or the judicial system, would of been identical.

These are but empty words, not at all reflective of the degree of integration taking or not taking place. And the term "multicultural", and often the knee jerk diatribe about Pierre Trudeau which follows, is definitely not worth getting your panties in a whirl. It is a political term of flattery with not relevance on policy.

[buffycat]

I can't believe this thread.

It's a FOOTBATH - not a terrorist bomb for crying out loud. A footbath which the Muslim students were willing to pay for themselves!

Good grief!!

Heck, back in my uni days after a long three hour chem lab - I would've probably loved a little soak in a nice little footbath!

Really unbelievable what some folks seems to get their panties in a knot over!!

LOL

[jbg]

A natural identity of course. But this plays into my point. Does labeling one country as multicultural and one as unicultural make a tangible difference, or are these but empty words that have little or nothing to do with the actual integration of culturally diverse groups.

I don't agree. The course of least resistance is to form enclaves. That way, the majority group is not "bothered" by the new migrants, and the new migrants can keep doing what they're doing. It's when their numbers expand that trouble begins.

Case in point, this foot bath issue is taking place in the U.S, a nation which claims to be culturally homogenizing, yet at my school, in multicultural Canada, had this issue come across, the reactions, be it from the public, the media or the judicial system, would of been identical.

These are but empty words, not at all reflective of the degree of integration taking or not taking place. And the term "multicultural", and often the knee jerk diatribe about Pierre Trudeau which follows, is definitely not worth getting your panties in a whirl. It is a political term of flattery with not relevance on policy.

I can't believe this thread.

It's a FOOTBATH - not a terrorist bomb for crying out loud. A footbath which the Muslim students were willing to pay for themselves!

Good grief!!

It's the symbolism that counts.

[ScottSA]

Do we want a mush, or a country with a real identity.

A natural identity of course. But this plays into my point. Does labeling one country as multicultural and one as unicultural make a tangible difference, or are these but empty words that have little or nothing to do with the actual integration of culturally diverse groups. Case in point, this foot bath issue is taking place in the U.S, a nation which claims to be culturally homogenizing, yet at my school, in multicultural Canada, had this issue come across, the reactions, be it from the public, the media or the judicial system, would of been identical.

These are but empty words, not at all reflective of the degree of integration taking or not taking place. And the term "multicultural", and often the knee jerk diatribe about Pierre Trudeau which follows, is definitely not worth getting your panties in a whirl. It is a political term of flattery with not relevance on policy.

Here's an interesting and intuitively reasonable take on one of the side effects of multiculturalism:

The democratic system has significant flaws, but it worked to some extent as long as there was sense of being a demos, a people with a shared identity and common interests. What we are witnessing now is the gradual breakdown of this demos, starting from the top down. Powerful groups frequently have more in common with the elites in other countries than they have with the average citizen in their own. If you no longer believe in your nation as a real entity with a specific culture, it simply becomes a tool for obtaining power, a stepping stone for your global career. Without a pre-political loyalty, emotional ties or even a pragmatic interest in supporting nation states, the democratic system becomes a vehicle for distributing favors to your friends at home and abroad, for fleecing the voters while in power and hopefully ensuring a lucrative international career along the way. You will have few moral inhibitions against importing voters from abroad for maintaining power or because your business buddies who give you financial support desire it. This process is related to technological globalization, but it has gone further in the self-loathing West than in any other civilization. http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/08/...t-alliance.html

[marcinmoka]

I don't agree.

No. You don't understand. I am highlighting the quantitative aspect of immigration (what is) and you seem to be fixated on the normative (what should be). Immigrants will naturally form enclaves regardless of whether the society they live in is "deemed "multicultural" or not.

That way, the majority group is not "bothered" by the new migrants, and the new migrants can keep doing what they're doing.

I take you've never actually been to the city? Ever heard of Crown Heights?

Edited August 3, 2007 by marcinmoka

[White Doors]

I think people who can't adapt to our country's culture should find one more to their liking. Pakistan perhaps?

Why should they adapt to your culture, why shouldn't you adapt to theirs?

Because this sort of attitude starts us down a slippery slope towards Kimmy having to be covered neck to ankle to go out in public.

-k

Which I think, would be a sin.

[Black Dog]

Other than the times I am in synagogue or celebrating a Jewish holiday, my daily activities are almost indistinguishable from that of a WASP's in Dubuque (except for the higher value on education that Jews tend to have). I am not making special pleading demands.

Nor, in this instance, have the Muslim students of U Michigan (whom you characterized, without any elaboration or explanation as a "homophobic, militaristic, violent group of people.") Also, given the scope and influence of Jewish lobby groups like AIPAC, it's pretty funny to pretend that your ethno-religious group is not big on "special demands."

kimmy:

I am not demanding assimilation.

I could not care less if some guy wants to wear his pyjamas in public, wash his feet and pray on a rug facing east 5 times a day, watch soccer for entertainment, or any other odd and foreign behavior, so long as they don't impact upon me.

What I do care about, a lot, is if someone tries to use his "freedom of religion" to justify limiting what I can read in a newspaper, or write, or post on a billboard, or buy at a store.

I want people to accept that in *this country*, their right to their religious beliefs and cultural practices does not override or infringe upon other peoples' freedoms.

Maybe you can explain exactly how your freedoms are being infringed upon.

[Moxie]

Well the Muslims use the foot bath as part of their Prayer ergo the foot bath becomes a porta mosque thus the University has not seperated Church and State. No matter how this is spun, the University is allowing Porta Mosque visa vie the foot baths, it's discrimination against all non-Muslims. Would I be forced to convert if I entered during prayer, would I have to remove my shoes? See this is a much bigger issue than just pandering to the PC crowd, this is about allowing a Religion that preaches world dominance using lies and violence gaining more "Religious Rights" in a government institution. Where shall it end?

[kimmy]

kimmy:

Maybe you can explain exactly how your freedoms are being infringed upon.

If you're asking how the footbath issue infringes on anyone's rights, then my view is that it does not.

If you haven't been following the thread, GC and I have been having a discussion in which GC asks "what do you mean when you say you want immigrants to adapt to our culture?" and my reply, in essence, is that I want them to recognize that their right to practice their religion and culture does not infringe on the rights of others.

I cited some examples (and none of them relating to footbaths, falafel, pyjamas, shawarma, headscarves, or similar kitsch.)

I cited the lawsuit filed by Muslims against the Western Standard for reprinting the infamous "Mohammed cartoons." While phrased in the language of lawyers (seeking compensation for emotional stress, and so on) it was nothing more than an attempt to intimidate the press. It was an attempt to impose their religious views (thou shalt not speak ill of the prophet, PBUH) at the expense of Canadian values (free press and the freedom of expression.)

I also mentioned the incident that sparked the Cronulla beach riots in Australia (Muslim thugs chasing westerners off the beach so that Muslim women could bathe unsullied by the gaze of infidels) as being in the same vein-- knuckleheads unable to reconcile their religious beliefs or cultural views with the rights of the public at large.

I also mentioned in passing things like Muslims who target western women for sexual violence because they're viewed as whores. (we've had a few threads on this board, one regarding a rape-gang in Australia, and at least a couple regarding information originating from Sweden.) Or one could mention the murder of Theo Van Gogh in Holland.

Although it should be obvious, I will post the usual disclaimers: I do not attribute these views or behaviors to most Muslims in Canada.

-k

[FascistLibertarian]

Kimmy you are uber uninformed.

I mean, I'm actually kind of interested in giving this a try. Help me out. Is a bag-shaped dress adequate, or should I buy a head scarf too? A veil? Should I install a footbath in my apartment in case I have guests who are also adapting to Muslim culture? Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

No one is trying to get you to do any of these things. Stop complaining about people tyring to get you to do these things because no one is.

How short is your memory? None of this rings a bell?

http://muslim-canada.org/DARLQADAform2andhalf.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/3599264.stm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/shariah-law.html

Yeah so you want to deny muslisms freedoms of expression?

you dont even know what the MCC or the CIC are and your telling me to read a book.

What I do care about, a lot, is if someone tries to use his "freedom of religion" to justify limiting what I can read in a newspaper, or write, or post on a billboard, or buy at a store.

But you seem to just be targeting Muslims. I bet you didnt complain when Jews or Christians were using their own law but as soon as muslims try it you complain.

So could you give me real examples of muslims groups in Canada trying to limit your freedoms?

You cantr because your a raving loon who is uneducated and doesnt know what they are talking about but wants to scare people by pretending they are beign threatened by something when in fact no one is trying to get you to do anything.

You are also grossly misinformed about the Aus racial tensions, but yeah blame it all on the Muslims. White people could never be the problem right.

God I wish you could be in anothers shoes for just one day, maybe then you wouldnt be sprouting off this ignorance.

[kimmy]

Kimmy you are uber uninformed.

When evaluating a comment like this, I consider the source. In this case, I'm not too worried.

No one is trying to get you to do any of these things. Stop complaining about people tyring to get you to do these things because no one is.

I never claimed anyone was. I was presenting hypothetical ideas to GC1765 on how I might follow up his suggestion to "adapt to their culture".

Yeah so you want to deny muslisms freedoms of expression?

I never claimed that they didn't have the right to advocate for Sharia courts.

I simply believe that people who want Sharia courts should either accept the rule of Canadian law, or go live in some other country where Sharia law is in force.

In any case, what I was responding to was this:

Kimmy and Moxie are attacking a straw man that doesnt exist.

Could they provide one example of Canadian Islamic Orgs asking for Sharia Law? Or any of the other claims they have made.

Nah, you 2 wouldnt waste your time checking out the CIC or the MCC.

No, because they speak in broad untrue generalizations and dont back up their arguement with facts.

I have proven that this is not a "straw man", that it does exist, and have shown you that some Canadian Muslims were indeed asking for Sharia Law. So why don't you acknowledge your mistake and thank me for providing you some much-needed information?

you dont even know what the MCC or the CIC are and your telling me to read a book.

I know who they are. Do you? Are you aware that Dr. Elmasry was one of the Advocates for Sharia in Canada? Are you aware that Dr Elmasry once said every Israeli over age 18 is a legitimate military target, since Israel has compulsory military service? Is the CIC the sort of fuzzy-wuzzy mainstream Muslim voice that you want Canadians to listen to?

But you seem to just be targeting Muslims. I bet you didnt complain when Jews or Christians were using their own law but as soon as muslims try it you complain.

I don't care for religious tribunals of any faith.

However, I suppose I might be slightly more biased against Muslim tribunals, since Christian and Jewish tribunals at least treat women like human beings.

So could you give me real examples of muslims groups in Canada trying to limit your freedoms?

I already mentioned the example of the Muslim group trying to intimidate our free press by a lawsuit.

You cantr because your a raving loon who is uneducated and doesnt know what they are talking about but wants to scare people by pretending they are beign threatened by something when in fact no one is trying to get you to do anything.

if the judge wasn't in town, I'd tell you exactly how I feel about this.

You are also grossly misinformed about the Aus racial tensions, but yeah blame it all on the Muslims. White people could never be the problem right.

When news of the riots first broke, we heard people like you tripping all over each other to blame it all on terrible racist white people, without hearing anything about what led to the confrontation. Then what? What did we hear from you "blame whitey" types once the background of the riots came out? Nothing.

-k

[scribblet]

I don't agree. The course of least resistance is to form enclaves. That way, the majority group is not "bothered" by the new migrants, and the new migrants can keep doing what they're doing. It's when their numbers expand that trouble begins.

It's the symbolism that counts.

It's not just symbolism, it's also a political statement as Islam and their laws are intertwined. It's not just a foot bath either, and not just one university, there's something like 19 of them so far. Iit's also about prayer mats and places to pray in airports for cabbies. At the W & M University, they removed a cross because some people found it offensive; a student flushes a Koran and he's charged, but flushing a Bible is 'art' - At George Mason University nonMuslim students are asked to observe Muslim rules in a common prayer area.

It's not just accommodating Muslims, but the double standards which are applied when applying religious benefits to one group, over another religious group. What we have is the inability to say no to one group, if muslim students want Muslim prayers etc. they should attend a Muslim university.

This is a creeping jihad or a slow path to Sharia law.

Kimmy is right about the request for Sharia Law in Ontario, we got lucky that McGuinty said no to this one, it was close.

[FascistLibertarian]

scriblett you dont know what your talking about.

The double standard works against Islam, not for it.

Christians and jews get away with way more than people like you owuld let Muslims get away for because you have a double standard and dont like Islam.

[FascistLibertarian]

I simply believe that people who want Sharia courts should either accept the rule of Canadian law, or go live in some other country where Sharia law is in force.

So people who want say, the 10 commandments, used as law in Canada should leave?

Nah, you would never say that, because they arent Islamic.

our never going to tell Jews 2 go live in Isreal or Catholics to go to Vac city, because your against Islam and sieze any pretext.

Now, give me a real example and not just generalizations and half truths that you dont understand.

Has an Islamic person ever told you how to live your life.

You wouldnt stand for it.

Christian people tell me how to live my life far more than Muslims, I accept both comments and reject their suggestions, they have the right to their own views as do I.

Maybe you should get to know some muslims. Kinda hard to hate groups when you know members.

Edited August 4, 2007 by FascistLibertarian

[FascistLibertarian]

Its so black and white for you.

If I dont think the Muslims are guilty I must think the whites are guilty right?

No grey area, if I defend Islam I must hate whites and Christians.

Your so afraid of things you dont even understand, its sad.

You need to meet more people and learn a lot.

Yeah Islam doesnt treat women like people and Jews and Christians are feminists, HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

thats some ignorance right there. But then you think of Islam as one big homogenus thing that scares you.

[jbg]

Maybe you should get to know some muslims. Kinda hard to hate groups when you know members.

To paraphrase Bennett Williams, "September 11 was a day of great clarity of thinking".

[ScottSA]

Fascist libertarian is as confused about the actuality of the "moderate" Jihadism of CIC and Cair-can as he apparently is about his own political beliefs. Clearly his a priori line of attack is to shout accusations of "racism" and "ignorance" while desperately fighting a rearguard action to shore up his own crumbling defences. Anyone with half an hour to spend in the bowels of the CIC website can read the pre-911 political treatises of various folks clearly and unequivocably arguing for the slow creep of Sharia and various methods of sliding it in under the table. One need only follow some of the links either there or elsewhere to Canadian madrassas, all, without exception, scorning the west and its ways.

Assuming of course that no one has thought to get rid of any of that stuff...I haven't gone there in months, but I do have the text copied elsewhere.

[Guest American Woman]

Well the Muslims use the foot bath as part of their Prayer ergo the foot bath becomes a porta mosque thus the University has not seperated Church and State. No matter how this is spun, the University is allowing Porta Mosque visa vie the foot baths, it's discrimination against all non-Muslims.

Good grief. When Muslims use the sinks as "part of their prayer," do the sinks become "a porta mosque?" The university is just providing a safe way for Muslims to continue doing what they have been doing all along, making the bathrooms safer for everyone, not just Muslims. And the only way it could possibly be "discrimination against all non-Muslims" is if non-Muslims were not allowed to use the footbaths, which is not the case.

[jbg]

And the only way it could possibly be "discrimination against all non-Muslims" is if non-Muslims were not allowed to use the footbaths, which is not the case.

Unless we hear that such use for, say, washing feet after a game of barefoot football on the quad amounts to "desecration".

[GostHacked]

Would they get upset if Non-Muslims used the footbaths?? Even as a non religious person, my feet stink. And when I am wearing sandals, the smell is that more prominent.

I'd use the footbaths .....

[Guest American Woman]

Unless we hear that such use for, say, washing feet after a game of barefoot football on the quad amounts to "desecration".

So what if we hear it? Unless it's forbidden by the university, it's not discrimination. Furthermore, since the Muslims were using sinks that are used by the entire public, why would they think public use of the footbaths would be desecration??

Talk about creating a problem where none exists! This whole 'issue' is a non-issue.