Universities will provide Muslim footbaths

[Bonam]

Yeah I don't think people should be washing their feet in sinks...

I still think the best solution would just have been to provide facilities useful to everyone at these universities. What's wrong with a normal bath? It can be used by other students for other needs, and can also be used for cleaning one's feet if one so desires.

[jbg]

one of Canada's three official languages

We have three?

I count French, Hanglish (as pronounced by Chretien) and Canadian (a/k/a Dionian or Chretienese).

[jbg]

The fact that people are uncouth enough to stick their feet into a sink shouldn't require Talibanizing a school.

jbg, you are one of the smartest posters here, don't make yourself look less intelligent by comments like this.

note: if you want to edit your post, I'll edit mine as well and we can pretend the whole thing never happened.

I appreciate the compliment, though I'm not known for particular intelligence.

I don't want to edit this one, since this "foot washing" and burqua wearing derive from relatively recent and very strict interpretations of Islam that didn't exist during Islam's better days, before the 1600's.

I consider taking religion to lengths impractical in the modern world, and forcing public institutions to step in line, is "Talibanizing" them.

[jbg]

Yeah I don't think people should be washing their feet in sinks...

I still think the best solution would just have been to provide facilities useful to everyone at these universities. What's wrong with a normal bath? It can be used by other students for other needs, and can also be used for cleaning one's feet if one so desires.

How about the toilets? After all, if I visit U. of Mich. I intend to use these foot baths as urinals or bidets.

[gc1765]

I consider taking religion to lengths impractical in the modern world, and forcing public institutions to step in line, is "Talibanizing" them.

The problem is that the world "Taliban" is associated with support for terrorism, taking away women's rights, and strict Sharia law. Trying to compare that with the building of a few sinks is ridiculous, IMO.

[gc1765]

I consider taking religion to lengths impractical in the modern world, and forcing public institutions to step in line, is "Talibanizing" them.

So, then Pat Robertson is trying to "talibanize" schools? He seems to fit that description.

[jbg]

I consider taking religion to lengths impractical in the modern world, and forcing public institutions to step in line, is "Talibanizing" them.

So, then Pat Robertson is trying to "talibanize" schools? He seems to fit that description.

As a Jew and a member of a minority religion, I'm with you on school prayer. I don't want my kids to be forced to participate in a religious ritual or be forced to stand aside conspicuously. To me religion is something private, not for wearing on one's sleeve.

[ScottSA]

I consider taking religion to lengths impractical in the modern world, and forcing public institutions to step in line, is "Talibanizing" them.

The problem is that the world "Taliban" is associated with support for terrorism, taking away women's rights, and strict Sharia law. Trying to compare that with the building of a few sinks is ridiculous, IMO.

Of course it is. But what's the next step? And the next? CAIR is challenging every one of our freedoms and all the universities and other institutions are doing is stumbling backwards and apologizing profusely for ever having them. University chapels are being asked to hide the cross, lest it offend Muslims, yet at the same time to install foot friggin' baths. It's incrementalism like this that destroyed the family, took homosexuality from the argument that "all we want is to be decriminalized and left alone" to "we have the right to get married and you better like it or you're a 'homophobe.'"

Take a look at CAIR's website. Scroll down and watch along the outside left till you get to a picture of the white house on the icon that says "American Muslim voter survey." Tell me then that all they want is a few footbaths.

Edited August 2, 2007 by ScottSA

[ScottSA]

Here's a very good article by Fjordman, one of the better essayists in Europe:

I heard supporters of mass immigration a generation ago state that all this talk about how it would change our societies into the unrecognizable was scare-mongering and racism. Now, the same groups are saying that yes, our societies have been changed forever. It’s good, and it’s anyway too late to do anything about it, so get used to it! Their propaganda was used to deceive the public and keep it off balance in order to implement potentially irreversible changes with little real debate. They knew they would never get the permission to destroy their own countries, so they simply didn’t ask.

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2007/08/...t-alliance.html

[FascistLibertarian]

Of course it is. But what's the next step? And the next? CAIR is challenging every one of our freedoms and all the universities and other institutions are doing is stumbling backwards and apologizing profusely for ever having them. University chapels are being asked to hide the cross, lest it offend Muslims, yet at the same time to install foot friggin' baths.

Could you provide the specific example of the university that had to do this.

I assume that your not asking for anything to do with Christians to be removed? Only Muslims?

Sigh

It's incrementalism like this that destroyed the family, took homosexuality from the argument that "all we want is to be decriminalized and left alone" to "we have the right to get married and you better like it or you're a 'homophobe.'"

You have no idea about the history of homosexual rights in this country. But anyways. Why shouldnt gays get married? Organized religion didnt invent marriage and has no better claim to the concept than anyone else. On what grounds do you oppose it?

[NovaScotian]

It's incrementalism like this that destroyed the family, took homosexuality from the argument that "all we want is to be decriminalized and left alone" to "we have the right to get married and you better like it or you're a 'homophobe.'"

Homosexuality destroyed marriage? Sorry, we destroyed it ourselves.

For the record. Do you think homosexuality should be criminalized?

[kimmy]

I agree to all of that, as I have said before.

...and yet you don't see these as examples of how some have failed to "adapt to our culture"?

This is not simply a failure to "obey the law".

How so? I said everyone should obey the law.

And so they should. But most lawbreaking is not a result of religious or cultural beliefs.

The examples you provide are examples of people breaking the law (or at the very least, things that should be against the law). The only exception is the story about Muslims suing over the cartoons. However, frivolous lawsuits are hardly exclusive to Muslims.

-Lobbying for Sharia courts is not illegal.

-Travelling to foreign lands is not illegal, and what you do there is not governed by Canadian law as far as I know (although I believe "tourist pedophiles" can now be prosecuted when they return to Canada.)

-Filing lawsuits is not illegal.

Lots of frivolous lawsuits are filed, but most are motivated by greed, not the intention of silencing legitimate free speech.

Your insistence on excluding things that are illegal is also puzzling, as all of the things I have cited are rooted in in an unwillingness or inability to adapt.

Chasing non-Muslims off the beach so that Muslim women can swim without "infidels" seeing them? Refusal to reconcile the rights of others with their religious or cultural beliefs.

Threats or violence against people who express views they don't agree with? Refusal to reconcile the rights of others with their religious or cultural beliefs.

Sexual violence towards women who don't conform to Muslim dress codes? Refusal to reconcile the rights of others with their cultural or religious beliefs.

This is not just random lawbreaking, this is lawbreaking rooted in some people's unwillingness or inability to reconcile their religious or cultural beliefs with the values of the societies they have moved to.

Now it is your turn. Explain what ways you feel that Kimmy should "adapt" to their culture.

Still waiting to hear an example that does not involve breaking the law...

edit: they don't even have to be real examples, hypotheticals would work too.

You have your examples. Now elaborate on your suggestion that Canadians ought to adapt to Muslim culture, or withdraw it and concede that it was poorly thought out.

-k

Edited August 2, 2007 by kimmy

[Drea]

Kimmy, we were at the beach last weekend and this family kept to themselves and swam in their clothes. Men and women. I think they were Hindu, not Muslims though.

I floated by (airmattress) in my itsy bitsy bikini and waved at them. They waved and smiled back. Didn't seem they had any problem with me being half naked.

[Moxie]

What concerns me, in Canada, is how far are we willing to accomade Islam? No other religion is currently demanding for "Special Status" i.e. bathroom sinks, Sharia Law etc? Currently radical elements use our democratic laws to further their agenda, how far is to far? Personally I think the left use minority groups like Muslims to further their "Socialist Agenda" they both share the same idiology no seperation of state and church for Islam and the left/left want us to be dependant on the state. Both idiologys are dangerous to those of us who treasure democratic idiology, they are winning in Canada.

I consider the sinks to be part of Islamic Religious Ritual done before prayer ergo it is allowing Islam to Islamify a Public Institution. That's hunky dory in Canada because pandering and appeasing using tax dollars is a time honoured tradition with our government. We don't have laws to protect our institution from being Islamified. The question I asked is this: For twenty/thirty years Muslim have been safely going about their ritual without mass amounts of injury in bathrooms why now is this an issue? Would non-muslims be allowed to access these foot baths without being abused by Muslims? Why are all students being forced to Islamify their University, isn't that forcing Islamic Idiology down non-Muslims throats? Why do Muslims expect someone else to "ALWAYS" pay to Islamify public institutions? If they are willing to pay to place sinks in public bathrooms, I'm cool with that as long as they don't try and enforce Islamic Laws when the unwashed masses use their sinks.

[FascistLibertarian]

Kimmy and Moxie are attacking a straw man that doesnt exist.

Could they provide one example of Canadian Islamic Orgs asking for Sharia Law? Or any of the other claims they have made.

Nah, you 2 wouldnt waste your time checking out the CIC or the MCC.

No, because they speak in broad untrue generalizations and dont back up their arguement with facts.

[NovaScotian]

What concerns me, in Canada, is how far are we willing to accomade Islam? No other religion is currently demanding for "Special Status" i.e. bathroom sinks, Sharia Law etc? Currently radical elements use our democratic laws to further their agenda, how far is to far? Personally I think the left use minority groups like Muslims to further their "Socialist Agenda" they both share the same idiology no seperation of state and church for Islam and the left/left want us to be dependant on the state. Both idiologys are dangerous to those of us who treasure democratic idiology, they are winning in Canada.

They NEVER DEMANDED the baths. They were willing to raise the money themselves, but the university stepped in and payed for them. The rest of what you said has no basis in reality. Islam is dangerous, then so is Christianity.

I consider the sinks to be part of Islamic Religious Ritual done before prayer ergo it is allowing Islam to Islamify a Public Institution. That's hunky dory in Canada because pandering and appeasing using tax dollars is a time honoured tradition with our government. We don't have laws to protect our institution from being Islamified. The question I asked is this: For twenty/thirty years Muslim have been safely going about their ritual without mass amounts of injury in bathrooms why now is this an issue? Would non-muslims be allowed to access these foot baths without being abused by Muslims? Why are all students being forced to Islamify their University, isn't that forcing Islamic Idiology down non-Muslims throats? Why do Muslims expect someone else to "ALWAYS" pay to Islamify public institutions? If they are willing to pay to place sinks in public bathrooms, I'm cool with that as long as they don't try and enforce Islamic Laws when the unwashed masses use their sinks.

Talk about OVER stating what is going on here.

From the Article.

"So when the school recently approved installing two footbaths in a pair of new unisex bathrooms, to accommodate the needs of both male and female Muslim students, the local Islamic community started planning ways to raise the estimated $25,000 cost." Count them TWO footbaths. In a school of 80,000? Hardly 'Islamification' And they were willing to pay themselves. You didn't even read the article and shot off on some rant. But hey they are willing to pay for them so you are cool with it right?

"which will also have diaper-changing stations and facilities for mothers to nurse infants" Is the university trying to endorse parenthood!

"because this is an issue of the school trying to make its bathrooms safer and improve its plumbing — not endorsing religion or promoting Islam."

It is about Safety for Muslim and Non-Muslim not promoting a religion.

[gc1765]

...and yet you don't see these as examples of how some have failed to "adapt to our culture"?

Kimmy, I don't think you understand what I am trying to say here. I have always said that immigrants should obey the law. I don't think anyone would argue against that. My point is there are many people here who think that immigrants should go beyond simply obeying the law, but don't give concrete examples of what they mean by adapting. I know you are probably not one of those people, but I was hoping that someone...anyone could explain to me what they mean when they say that immigrants should assimilate into our culture, or why multiculturalism is a bad thing. Should we outlaw sushi? Should we force everyone to wear a maple leafs jersey (or flames, canucks etc.) while watching Hockey Night in Canada while drinking Molson Canadian and eating poutine?? Seriously, someone give me an example. The best I've heard so far is not to lobby for Sharia law, so I'll change my requirements: Immigrants should obey the law, speak one official language and not lobby for sharia law (which would be illegal anyways). Anything else?

What I think you don't understand is that I'm not here to argue that every immigrant is adapting to our culture and obeying the law. I am asking, what, above and beyond obeying the law, some people here expect of immigrants with respect to assimilation.

Now it is your turn. Explain what ways you feel that Kimmy should "adapt" to their culture.

I wish I could, but I honestly can't without understanding what people expect from immigrants other than speaking an official language and obeying the law.

[Black Dog]

Evidently all this hullabaloo over two footbaths came about because of conservative bloggers. The students are evidently fine with it, the staff is evidently fine with it, the taxpayers don't have to pay for it; yet here people are all worked up over it. Says a lot. Says we have it too damn good that we can spend our time obsessing over something so trivial.

My advice: Get over it! Concern yourselves with something that actually matters.

For some, this is all they have. You think someone can post 20 times a day here (and no doubt on other forums) while scouring the bowels of the internet for their outrage of the day because they have better things to do? based on some of the commentary, I'm surprised they don't have outrage fatigue. Ah, but it's "Teh Left" who are "shrill".

This one comment in particular stuck out:

Presumably many Muslims and others came here for things that they liked about us. Why should we let a few turn us into a "New Iraq"? If you come to America, you come to be an American.

Does being an American mean abandoning your own traditions and beliefs? Strange idea, especially coming from a Jew.

[marcinmoka]

My ancestors, my wife's ancestors, and practically all Jewish immigrants came to the US and Canada speaking only Yiddish.

Are they from Yiddishstan? So while you claim the need for foreigners to learn our official language(s) *which is something I actually do adamantly support* I am somewhat baffled how you are proud of your Ashkenazi ancestors ignoring and not bothering to learn the language of their former hosts (presumably Polish, German, Russian or Ukranian).

Choose your Canada!!!

Maybe your geography is a little bit rusty, but last time I checked, the University of Michigan was NOT in Canada. It was in the land which excels in homogenizing it's immigrant populations, unlike our Indo-Islamic pandering nation. Nice try though!

The funny thing is that I am against such measures which do pander to the "choices" of a tiny minorities at the expense of the larger group. Hell, I should start lobbying for subsidized meals of pork and ask the school to construct a "vodka room" so that I can honour my cultures timely traditions. What I am against is thoughtless, knee jerk drivel which tries to antagonize one a. nation or b. group (which in the case of jbg, is a. Canada, and b. Muslims on the whole. I can understand anger directed at th actions of certain segments of those groups, but not against it's sum.

Edited August 2, 2007 by marcinmoka

[cybercoma]

Someone who sticks their feet into the sink at a university is a vandal...

This is easily the stupidest thing I've ever read on these forums.

[jbg]

Could they provide one example of Canadian Islamic Orgs asking for Sharia Law? Or any of the other claims they have made.

Then why did Ontariario come within centimeters of officially recognizing Sharia?

[jbg]

Presumably many Muslims and others came here for things that they liked about us. Why should we let a few turn us into a "New Iraq"? If you come to America, you come to be an American.

Does being an American mean abandoning your own traditions and beliefs? Strange idea, especially coming from a Jew.

Other than the times I am in synagogue or celebrating a Jewish holiday, my daily activities are almost indistinguishable from that of a WASP's in Dubuque (except for the higher value on education that Jews tend to have). I am not making special pleading demands.

[jbg]

My ancestors, my wife's ancestors, and practically all Jewish immigrants came to the US and Canada speaking only Yiddish.

Are they from Yiddishstan? So while you claim the need for foreigners to learn our official language(s) *which is something I actually do adamantly support* I am somewhat baffled how you are proud of your Ashkenazi ancestors ignoring and not bothering to learn the language of their former hosts (presumably Polish, German, Russian or Ukranian).

We weren't allowed to be educated alongside their children. In the US we were, which is why our children learned English.

Choose your Canada!!!

Maybe your geography is a little bit rusty, but last time I checked, the University of Michigan was NOT in Canada. It was in the land which excels in homogenizing it's immigrant populations, unlike our Indo-Islamic pandering nation. Nice try though!

What was the context?

The funny thing is that I am against such measures which do pander to the "choices" of a tiny minorities at the expense of the larger group. Hell, I should start lobbying for subsidized meals of pork and ask the school to construct a "vodka room" so that I can honour my cultures timely traditions. What I am against is thoughtless, knee jerk drivel which tries to antagonize one a. nation or b. group (which in the case of jbg, is a. Canada, and b. Muslims on the whole. I can understand anger directed at th actions of certain segments of those groups, but not against it's sum.

I have nothing against Canada. In fact, it is the foreign country I vacation in most often. I've even learned the language. Edited August 3, 2007 by jbg

[kimmy]

Kimmy and Moxie are attacking a straw man that doesnt exist.

Could they provide one example of Canadian Islamic Orgs asking for Sharia Law? Or any of the other claims they have made.

Nah, you 2 wouldnt waste your time checking out the CIC or the MCC.

No, because they speak in broad untrue generalizations and dont back up their arguement with facts.

How short is your memory? None of this rings a bell?

http://muslim-canada.org/DARLQADAform2andhalf.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from...ent/3599264.stm

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/shariah-law.html

If that's all you have to contribute, perhaps you should go read a book.

-k

Edited August 3, 2007 by kimmy

[kimmy]

What I think you don't understand is that I'm not here to argue that every immigrant is adapting to our culture and obeying the law. I am asking, what, above and beyond obeying the law, some people here expect of immigrants with respect to assimilation.

I am not demanding assimilation.

I could not care less if some guy wants to wear his pyjamas in public, wash his feet and pray on a rug facing east 5 times a day, watch soccer for entertainment, or any other odd and foreign behavior, so long as they don't impact upon me.

What I do care about, a lot, is if someone tries to use his "freedom of religion" to justify limiting what I can read in a newspaper, or write, or post on a billboard, or buy at a store.

I want people to accept that in *this country*, their right to their religious beliefs and cultural practices does not override or infringe upon other peoples' freedoms.

Now it is your turn. Explain what ways you feel that Kimmy should "adapt" to their culture.

I wish I could, but I honestly can't without understanding what people expect from immigrants other than speaking an official language and obeying the law.

I would like an explanation for the following quote:

Why should they adapt to your culture, why shouldn't you adapt to theirs?

Surely you meant something when you wrote this. I would like you to tell us what. I am most insistent upon this.

I don't see why explaining this is contingent upon your understanding of other peoples' concept of adaptation; to me it appears that all that is required is your own concept of adapting. Surely you must have had your own concept of what "adapting" might mean when you suggested doing so.

I mean, I'm actually kind of interested in giving this a try. Help me out. Is a bag-shaped dress adequate, or should I buy a head scarf too? A veil? Should I install a footbath in my apartment in case I have guests who are also adapting to Muslim culture? Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

-k