Canada's economic future

[Riverwind]

Not only do I disagree with new grads makign 40k, I'm suggesting that a new grad SIMPLY CANNOT GET an entery level development job to begin with.

Depends on a lot of factors - where you are, what university you went and what your grades were like. The market is definitely tighter than it was 10 years ago when anyone with a pulse could get a job as a programmer. That said, you orginal statement that programmers get $9/hour is absurd (unless you take the the total hours worked instead of a typical 40 hour week).

A lot of Canadians went to the US in the 90s because of the low dollar and better opportunities in the larger centers like Silicon Valley. The difference in population is more significant than the difference in salary and taxes (California taxes are _not_ low). In fact, I know of a few that want to move back but they have moved up high enough that finding an equivalent position would be tough in the relatively small Canadian market.

Microsoft used to have no problems getting Canadians to move to their Redmond office. However, times have changed and US immigration rules and the drop in the US dollar have made a move to the US less attractive for many Canadians. That is why they are opening the Vancouver office. 200 people is a start and will likely expand over time. In this case, the tight US immigration rules helps Canada.

Edited July 10, 2007 by Riverwind

[madmax]

For once, I have to agree with MikeDavid.

Dodge will soon retire and he's already giving boiler plate speeches.

Yeah, it's got me worried too

I have to reread this thread.....

I am reserving my judgement but will follow the rest of the comments in this thread, but at this point I am leaning in a similar direction. I am certain something will spoil this rare occurence.

Something immigrant maybe ?

or perhaps a more thorough argument.

But I did have one of those moments.

[madmax]

I'd say the biggest threat to the Canadian economy is the global warming movement.

The economy is going to be revisted with a rude awakening coming to many middle class families. This will not have anything to do with global warming or the global warming movement. Arguments can be made for and against these issues and the activists who press them.

There is a huge threat to the Canadian economy, and I think that is obvious.

[madmax]

I agree.

And how letting in 300,000 people into Canada a year helps the situation? I don't know.

Oh.. maybe it *is* the excess labor that is creating this situation unlike in the US where it doesn't exist.

I knew it!

Edited July 10, 2007 by madmax

[Xman]

It isn't the immigrants coming in - it's the jobs going out - labour and skilled - the free market at it's best - all hale to the gods of the marketplace - the answer to all our ills or at least to the corporate ills.

[M.Dancer]

The problem is: our work force is shifting from high paying jobs (such as auto) to low paying jobs (selling shoes in WalMart), which results in the living standard going down.

Well put.

When a country no longer has a vibrant middle-class, how can it have a bright future?

When a country no longer has the industry or the capital to support a middle class.....this isn't a chicken and egg model.....if we ignore the sources of our prosperity, capital and industry, we are doomed to low productivity....

[M.Dancer]

There's software development jobs in Canada paying $9 an hour and requires education. I challenge you to find these scum wages in the US. Ah yes you can't. Because they don't purposely saturate their own labor market.

.

I challenge you to find the $9 an hour software development job.....

[Topaz]

Let me put my 2 cents worth in. I call productivity, maufacturing, and depending on what you are maufacturing, shows how much profit is in it for Canada and the company producing the product. Some profits depends on how the politics of the land protect the company or the workers. In Ontario, the auto sector loss ,when Harris wouldn't put in protection for the auto workers. If the company isn't force to make cars in Canada to sell them, then they will go else where to produce them. Our dollars is nearing par with the US and we may see further companies leave Canada and go to Mexico. Canada is known for building good quality autos, but the company looks more for the profits than quality until quality starts eating away from their profits. I'd never buy a car or truck that was made in Mexico, they don't last that long as one guy I know found out when his 3 yearold car started to fall apart. Alot of people, who usually don't know what they are talking about blame the unions for the high prices for car but if you look at its more has to do with the company than the unions. I know of a company that threaten to leave Canada because of hard times for the company, the workers, which are unionized said they would take a pay cut to help the company out. The workers gave up cost of living, new workers made only half of what the other workers make and the company is a US company which makes it harder to keep them here. How many maufacturers are Canada owned?? The problem we see in productivity has to do with where the company is from, the C$$$$, the tax rules etc.

[White Doors]

I think that was only worth 1 cent. sorry

[ScottSA]

I think that was only worth 1 cent. sorry

That's pretty generous of you.

[Army Guy]

I'd be curious to know what the avg car plant pays out in wages, from the guy on the floor to the guy sitting in the chair upstairs.

[August1991]

I'd be curious to know what the avg car plant pays out in wages, from the guy on the floor to the guy sitting in the chair upstairs.

Interesting question.

The average base wage for Canadian auto workers is $24.43 an hour, which is much higher than the industrial average of $17.80, GM says.

Link (That's in US $ in 2005.)

GM's unionized workers earn between $31.55 and $37.53 an hour.

Link (That's in Cdn $ for Canadian workers in 2005.)

8. With an average annual salary of $72,000, auto workers pay an average of $22,480 in federal and provincial taxes.

Link (That's in Canada in Cdn $)

In 2003 GM complained that, to build a car, a GM worker took 45 hours—compared to 32 hours at Toyota’s non-union U.S. plants, where injuries are routine as a result of the push for productivity.

Claiming wages and benefits cost $52 an hour, GM said its average labor costs per vehicle came to $2,340.

Brand-new figures from the Harbour Report, which tracks industry productivity, show a GM worker now builds a car in 32 hours, compared to 30 at Toyota. Even with GM now claiming costs (including retiree health care) of $70 an hour, labor costs have been actually reduced by $100 per vehicle.

Actually, the company’s claim that labor costs have risen $18 an hour in four years is laughable. There were no raises the first two years of the contract and only a 2 percent raise the third year. A 3 percent raise the fourth year was canceled at Ford and GM—a concession negotiated to pay for costs of health care.

Link (That's in US $ for US workers.)

In Canada, gross pay before income taxes would be around Cdn $35/hr or about $70,000 annually.

If we add in company-paid benefits, then it probably is not far from Cdn $50/hr or about $100,000 annually.

I conclude two things. First, there will be no cars manufactured in North America in 20 years. Second, I can understand why these workers accept a job with threats of a layoff.

----

The salary/bonus of Rick Wagoner (CEO of GM World) is about US $5 million. (GM Canada is a private company, wholly owned by GM World. The CEO's salary is unknown.)

The CEO earns about 50X more than the average employee.

Edited July 12, 2007 by August1991

[Canuck E Stan]

I conclude two things. First, there will be no cars manufactured in North America in 20 years. Second, I can understand why these workers accept a job with threats of a layoff.

Don't kid yourself August, there is still lots of interest in building cars in North America.

Volkswagen AG will consider building its first plant in North America

Volkswagen AG will consider building its first plant in North America if the U.S. dollar remains weak against the euro, says its chief executive, Martin Winterkorn.

It would then join a growing number of European carmakers looking at boosting manufacturing on this continent to counter the currency exchange disadvantage.

VW, the world's fourth-biggest carmaker, is already planning a second administrative centre near Detroit "to get closer to our customers" in North America, Mr. Winterkorn told German magazine Focus in an interview published over the weekend.

[bush_cheney2004]

Volkswagen AG will consider building its first plant in North America if the U.S. dollar remains weak against the euro, says its chief executive, Martin Winterkorn.

It would then join a growing number of European carmakers looking at boosting manufacturing on this continent to counter the currency exchange disadvantage.

VW, the world's fourth-biggest carmaker, is already planning a second administrative centre near Detroit "to get closer to our customers" in North America, Mr. Winterkorn told German magazine Focus in an interview published over the weekend.

Are these people too young to remember the Volkswagen Rabbit assembly plant built in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania, USA?

http://www.cfed.org/focus.m?edit=0&parenti...id=1629&id=1658

Edited July 12, 2007 by bush_cheney2004

[Army Guy]

I think i'd have to agree with August, how can the auto industry remain competive within the world market when paying out these wages...shit pay me 6 figures and i'd would give up a few benifits as well...come to think of it can any one send me an application.

How many auto jobs disappeared from Canada last year alone, where are they going to ?

[Canuck E Stan]

I think i'd have to agree with August, how can the auto industry remain competive within the world market when paying out these wages...shit pay me 6 figures and i'd would give up a few benifits as well...come to think of it can any one send me an application.

How many auto jobs disappeared from Canada last year alone, where are they going to ?

Jobs disappear and re-appear, that's been this way since the 60's.Toyota workers presently earn more than the CAW workers producing cars. I don't see Toyota saying they are going to pull out,just the opposite,they're building more plants to accommodate the demand.

The unions might be in trouble but those companies that know the customer demand will always survive.

The Big Three blew it by being over zealous about the big vehicles,now they're paying the price, but I believe they will come back in a big way and surprise everyone.

Chrysler is already getting involved in some innovative research that could have a big impact on future vehicles.

Other companies will also come here to build because this is a very profitable market for auto companies.

[August1991]

Jobs disappear and re-appear, that's been this way since the 60's.Toyota workers presently earn more than the CAW workers producing cars. I don't see Toyota saying they are going to pull out,just the opposite,they're building more plants to accommodate the demand.

Jobs disappear and re-appear, true. But only since the 1960s?

Do you know anyone with the family name Wright? Do you know what a wheelwright is? Do you know why wheelwrights no longer exist?

Have you noticed how most full-service gas stations have turned into self-serve, with a small grocery store? And have you noticed how many corner garage gas stations have turned into coffee shops, or simply don't exist anymore?

How many people lost their jobs with such changes? Would you prefer a world in which we still had gas jockeys cleaning your windshield and checking your oil? A world in which car engines needed an oil check every 2000 miles? How much would such service people earn now, if they still existed?

We could return to a world of typewriters and paper and duplicated memos and long-distance telephone calls. Or, we can live better in a world of Skype and e-mail. (If you don't like this VoIP world, you can go back to the previous system. It still exists.)

-----

The purpose of life is to eliminate jobs. When you eliminate your job, it means that someone gets your salary for the job that you used to do. The trick is to be that someone. Then, you'll get one salary and you'll earn another salary too with the free time you'll have.

No society became rich by protecting jobs.

If the Chinese can produce cars more cheaply than we can, then that means we don't have to do the work of producing cars. If lasers could remodel your old car, would this be a bad thing? It's like finding a new energy source, or a faster computer.

We'll eliminate jobs, and we'll be richer.

Edited July 13, 2007 by August1991

[KO2]

I think August is speaking to me.

As I said in other posts in this forum, to think that we can plan and tweak the future by our feeble inputs today is simple-minded and arogant at the same time.

If you read this old published article of mine and apply August's wisdom to it, as many wonders and miracles as we need will flow from it.

Only an ethical step forward in the right direction will spur all on all the good things destined to flow from it.

Like it says in the Good Book, what goes around comes around.

Its called Human Ingenuity and has brought us about a million years from the trees, to standing on the moon.

Governments in the roles of "benign" custodians for humanity, is a very recent concept that some would call a mass-marketed fraud.

Today's Governments, by the observed evidence, are not benign. They resemble the models of organized crime more than "of the people"

The second article down, Tech and Us

http://republic-news.org/archive/127-repub/127_letters.htm

[Jerry J. Fortin]

If you want to improve productivity you first need to produce something. This nation is full of tertiary industry that is dominated by multinational franchises, of course they produce nothing but they represent a major portion of employment. The service industry is huge in Canada. The primary industry, the development of our natural resources is the next largest industry. We export huge amounts of raw materials out of the country. The next sector is the manufacturing sector that produces finished value added products for sale internal and externally through export. This is where we are failing, in the manufacturing sector.

So the question becomes how do we develop a profitable manufacturing sector. I will suggest that it could come to pass through the involvement of a tripod of individual investors, financial institutions, and the government. The industry needs to created in a manner that would provide benefit to all members of the tripod.

[ScottSA]

Governments in the roles of "benign" custodians for humanity, is a very recent concept that some would call a mass-marketed fraud.

Today's Governments, by the observed evidence, are not benign. They resemble the models of organized crime more than "of the people"

The second article down, Tech and Us

http://republic-news.org/archive/127-repub/127_letters.htm

I think you misunderstand what you are quoting. Consumerism is hardly a function of government. I agree that the alleged "security" that government has added to its portfolio is a mirage, and a detriment to its citizens in so very many ways. But consumerism is not among those.

The article you directed us to is naive twaddle. So he rides a bike and claims he's broken the "addiction" to gasoline. He rides in all weather and then comes home to a nice cup of "coco" in his recliner. Very hip, man. How does he think his recliner got there? Did someone deliver it on a bike? What about his "coco"? Did it transport itself from South America on a bike? What about when he falls off his bike and breaks his neck? Is he thrilled at the prospect of being transported to the hospital on the back of another bike? Once he gets there, does he mind waiting while the painkillers arrive by bike form wherever they are made, because without "gasoline," they can't be stored at the hospital. Is this starting to sink in a bit?

I ride a bike too. I love it and I try to use it as much as possible everyday. I don't think the fact that we need gasoline means that we will always need gasoline, nor that we should be content using it forever. But it is silly hippie chik to think that bikes are somehow the answer to consumerism.

Edited July 13, 2007 by ScottSA

[KO2]

"The article you directed us to is naive twaddle. So he rides a bike and claims he's broken the "addiction" to gasoline. He rides in all weather and then comes home to a nice cup of "coco" in his recliner. Very hip, man. How does he think his recliner got there? Did someone deliver it on a bike? What about his "coco"? Did it transport itself from South America on a bike? What about when he falls off his bike and breaks his neck? Is he thrilled at the prospect of being transported to the hospital on the back of another bike? Once he gets there, does he mind waiting while the painkillers arrive by bike form wherever they are made, because without "gasoline," they can't be stored at the hospital. Is this starting to sink in a bit?"

Boy you sure missed the point. The more we gear ourselves to a green mental attitude at the level of the individual The more human ingenuity will deliver new technologies that spring from the new thinking/ attitude.

You seem to feel that economy must always follow the model it has now.

I'm saying a new model will spring forth from a new paradigm.

Your main purpose here seems to be to reinforce your political views by insulting anyone elses.

That seems to be the same agenda and vile tactics of the Conservatives politicians, is that your game? Shoving your agenda rudely down my throat?

An open discussion should not include unfounded insults, Who the heck can figure out I want a scenario where I'm transported on the back of a bike as you did from my article?

Edited July 13, 2007 by KO2

[Pat Coghlan]

The problem is: our work force is shifting from high paying jobs (such as auto) to low paying jobs (selling shoes in WalMart), which results in the living standard going down.

Well put.

When a country no longer has a vibrant middle-class, how can it have a bright future?

While it's very easy to say that, it isn't borne out by the facts.

The growth in tax revenue for the Federal Government appears to be coming, in part, from higher earnings on the part of Canadians. That doesn't jibe with the contention that the work force is shifting down overall. Any support for that assertion?

The unemployment rate in Toronto is something like 4 pts higher than that in St. John's Nfld. Never happened before.

If there is growth in tax revenue, it's not coming from the middle class. Have you read Lou Dobb's "War On The Middle Class". Good insight into what's going on.

Also, I work in high tech, as do most of the 8 guys I regularly play poker with. About 3/4 of them have been laid off from different companies over the past 4 years. Does that tell you anything.

[Pat Coghlan]

There's software development jobs in Canada paying $9 an hour and requires education.

BS. New grads start at 40K. See http://salarywizard.monster.ca if you don't believe me.

Okay, how about this fact.

I started my career in the 80's at a salary of $18K. Within 2 years I was making over $30K and bought my first new house (Ottawa) for $70K - or just over 2x my salary.

What does a high tech grad make after 2 years these days? $65K? Can you buy that same house for $140K? In fact, that same house costs about $270K now (I shoulda kept it and paid it off 10 years ago, but that's another story).

Can you see how buying power is being eaten away and that salaries are not keeping up? That's why you need 2 incomes to get by today.

[Pat Coghlan]

Jobs disappear and re-appear, that's been this way since the 60's.Toyota workers presently earn more than the CAW workers producing cars. I don't see Toyota saying they are going to pull out,just the opposite,they're building more plants to accommodate the demand.

Jobs disappear and re-appear, true. But only since the 1960s?

Do you know anyone with the family name Wright? Do you know what a wheelwright is? Do you know why wheelwrights no longer exist?

Have you noticed how most full-service gas stations have turned into self-serve, with a small grocery store? And have you noticed how many corner garage gas stations have turned into coffee shops, or simply don't exist anymore?

How many people lost their jobs with such changes? Would you prefer a world in which we still had gas jockeys cleaning your windshield and checking your oil? A world in which car engines needed an oil check every 2000 miles? How much would such service people earn now, if they still existed?

We could return to a world of typewriters and paper and duplicated memos and long-distance telephone calls. Or, we can live better in a world of Skype and e-mail. (If you don't like this VoIP world, you can go back to the previous system. It still exists.)

-----

The purpose of life is to eliminate jobs. When you eliminate your job, it means that someone gets your salary for the job that you used to do. The trick is to be that someone. Then, you'll get one salary and you'll earn another salary too with the free time you'll have.

No society became rich by protecting jobs.

If the Chinese can produce cars more cheaply than we can, then that means we don't have to do the work of producing cars. If lasers could remodel your old car, would this be a bad thing? It's like finding a new energy source, or a faster computer.

We'll eliminate jobs, and we'll be richer.

What the hell are you smokin'?

The process works, in general, when 2% of the workforce is affected each year. It falls apart when suddenly 40% of the workforce finds that their job has been moved to China.

When you take the automotive job away from the high-school educated worker in Oshawa...and you close the plant - possibly others - what happens to those thousands of people who suddenly "have a lot more time on their hands"?

I suggest you read "War On The Middle Class".

[Canuck E Stan]

When you take the automotive job away from the high-school educated worker in Oshawa...and you close the plant - possibly others - what happens to those thousands of people who suddenly "have a lot more time on their hands"?

The same Ontario high school graduates are building Canadian made Toyotas and obviously not fast enough. Toyota is building a new plant to increase production.

So ask yourself why one plant less than a hundred miles away from the other is laying off while the other is working overtime. The answer is of course in the product they are selling, nothing to do with China,nothing to do with unions,just all to do with the product they make and sell.

Is it the responsibility of government to bail out a company that made a wrong judgement on what product they make?

Who's fault is it that someone with a high school education has no skills except the skill of putting nuts and bolts on autos? Should they not take responsibility for themselves?

Do we owe these people a guarantee of a high paying non skilled job?

Automobiles are a consumer item and like any consumer items the consumer picks what they want.

If a consumer isn't convinced a product is worth purchasing,the manufacturer has two choices, get out of the business or make a product the consumer will buy.