U.S. losing its power over China

[kuzadd]

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/229004

"The United States may be about to do something really stupid, which is to launch a trade war with China.

Such a misguided step would do much damage to the world economy and reinforce the view, not only in China but in other emerging market countries, that the United States does not really want them to succeed. Moreover, China would be bound to retaliate.

What's driving the "blame China" crusade in the U.S. Congress is itsgrowing trade deficit with China.

It's true the United States has a huge trade deficit with China. But the actual deficit is seriously overstated since many Chinese exports consist of parts and materials imported from other countries and simply assembled into finished products in China. Chinese value-added, or content, in its exports is only about 25 per cent of their final price.

The real problem the United States has is that it seeks to maximize consumption today and forego savings for the future.

The U.S. financial system encourages families to take the equity out of their homes through new mortgages so they can spend more, or to assume even greater levels of other debt for current consumption. You can't blame the Chinese for that. They are supplying American consumers with products Americans want to buy with this extra money. At the same time, the United States has a massive budget deficit that shows no sign of disappearing.

Americans are fond of lecturing others on how to behave, as they are now doing with China.

But as The Financial Times asked in a recent editorial, "What would Capitol Hill think of a Chinese `get tough' ultimatum, declaring Beijing's patience at an end, requiring immediate action to cap mortgage-interest tax relief and cut public spending, on the pain of sanctions? The reaction would be gibbering, uncomprehending rage. Yet those American policies have seriously destabilizing global implications, just as surely as does China's decision to peg its currency."

Perhaps the biggest issue is the U.S. has yet to come to terms with the reality the world is changing and, in relative terms, it is a declining superpower. In fact, acknowledging we are moving into a different world is a problem for all Western countries, including Canada."

and so forth and so on............................. read the rest at above link

[bush_cheney2004]

...Americans are fond of lecturing others on how to behave, as they are now doing with China.

But not nearly so fond of lecturing as Canada....especially when it comes to "human rights". There would be articles about this too, except that nobody really gives a damn what Canada thinks in China, but the Americans can put serious restrictions on their biggest market.

It would be sad to lose all those cheap Happy Meal toys, but then again we can do without the poison pet food from CanChina.

[kuzadd]

...Americans are fond of lecturing others on how to behave, as they are now doing with China.

But not nearly so fond of lecturing as Canada....especially when it comes to "human rights". There would be articles about this too, except that nobody really gives a damn what Canada thinks in China, but the Americans can put serious restrictions on their biggest market.

It would be sad to lose all those cheap Happy Meal toys, but then again we can do without the poison pet food from CanChina.

oh but BC, America takes it so much further then lecturing

especially on human rights and fweedum and democracy. lol.

I detest McDonalds!

anyway.................the article writer seems to be saying the US is to blame for it's own mess.

and where do you come in on that?

[bush_cheney2004]

anyway.................the article writer seems to be saying the US is to blame for it's own mess.

and where do you come in on that?

Wouldn't have it any other way....you know...like Canada blaming somebody else for its "mess". LOL!

Went to China in the late 90's for manufacturing technology transfer in quality and reliability engineering. Shanghai was so polluted I wanted to wear a Michael Jackson style face mask. But then they would have copied that too.

China and Japan keep buying American debt....because it is still the best game in town.

[Argus]

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/229004

"The United States may be about to do something really stupid, which is to launch a trade war with China.

Such a misguided step would do much damage to the world economy and reinforce the view, not only in China but in other emerging market countries, that the United States does not really want them to succeed. Moreover, China would be bound to retaliate.

What's driving the "blame China" crusade in the U.S

Gee, could it be repeated violations of every known trade rule? Predatory pricing. Massive counterfeiting? The export to the US and other nations of poisoned food products? Massive, countinuing economic espionage activities directed against US corporations? Massive military build-up? Endemic corruption? Human rights violations?

[margrace]

Yes deny deny deny, of course China is wrong, it is doing exactly what it has learned from the great American way of life. But we don't want that do we. One thing we can do is to stop buying their products but that will never happen. If we went back to the 50s and 60s then we would have a lot more stay at home moms and one car families. Of course the continuation of that would never have achieved what we have today. The great North American mess.

[ScottSA]

Yes deny deny deny, of course China is wrong, it is doing exactly what it has learned from the great American way of life. But we don't want that do we. One thing we can do is to stop buying their products but that will never happen. If we went back to the 50s and 60s then we would have a lot more stay at home moms and one car families. Of course the continuation of that would never have achieved what we have today. The great North American mess.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Can you focus on a point, make it, and then move on to the next one? Ramming them all into the mouth of the cannon and then firing them scattershot doesn't make for good debate.

[Leafless]

Yes deny deny deny, of course China is wrong, it is doing exactly what it has learned from the great American way of life. But we don't want that do we. One thing we can do is to stop buying their products but that will never happen. If we went back to the 50s and 60s then we would have a lot more stay at home moms and one car families. Of course the continuation of that would never have achieved what we have today. The great North American mess.

"China has built its economy on the basis of manufacturing of commodity-type products.

"What we have seen in the US is that our new jobs that are being created are in the area of higher value manufacturing, differentiation of products, higher technology, and in many cases new services,"

"US lawmakers have threatened to slap a 27.5 percent tariff on China's US-bound exports unless Beijing revalues its currency, the yuan, although momentum for a vote has declined after two key senators visited Beijing. "

The United States says the yuan is undervalued, giving an unfair advantage to China and fuelling a massive bilateral trade deficit. "

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-04...tent_557679.htm

Condoleezza Rice had this to say relating to China and India as to not being a threat to the U.S:

http://content.msn.co.in/News/Internationa...07_1037.htm#top

[kimmy]

Not a week goes by without a new news item about corruption and horrific labor practices in China.

Poisoned pet-food made from contaminated Chinese protein.

Corrupt inspectors being bribed to overlook gross deficiencies in product safety.

Corrupt inspectors being bribed to overlook deadly environmental practices.

Whistleblowers being thrown in jail.

This week, there was even an item about slaves. (you are clicking here for learn more!)

Why *shouldn't* we stop buying things from this country, at least until such time as they can demonstrate that they have a credible record on these issues?

I'm all for competition, but it doesn't seem fair to ask our industries to match prices against competitors who are allowed to pump raw toxic waste into the air and water, benefit from slave labour, and seem to have rather low standards in regard to consumer safety.

-k

[capricorn]

A new concern over Chinese imports involves faulty tires.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...7062602089.html

Some of these tires under the brand name Westlake have reportedly been sold in Mississauga.

Would measures to protect consumers by imposing strict measures on imported goods be considered a trade war? I don't care what my government calls it, I don't accept shoddy manufacturing practices in China that threatens the health and safety of my family and me.

Now on the question of which country is more powerful than another, here is a great article on the shift of power presently going on in the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6246080.stm

[August1991]

OMG!

We have some sort of strange consensus among disparate posters. Argus, Margrace and Kimmy all agree. China is bad. I think this is time for the Chinese government to hire some heavy duty PR/lobbying frims in Washington, Brussels and maybe even Ottawa. (Any Chinese bureaucreats reading, here's a plug for my firm: 1-800-FIX-YREP.)

Gee, could it be repeated violations of every known trade rule? Predatory pricing. Massive counterfeiting? The export to the US and other nations of poisoned food products? Massive, countinuing economic espionage activities directed against US corporations? Massive military build-up? Endemic corruption? Human rights violations?

Yes deny deny deny, of course China is wrong, it is doing exactly what it has learned from the great American way of life. But we don't want that do we. One thing we can do is to stop buying their products but that will never happen. If we went back to the 50s and 60s then we would have a lot more stay at home moms and one car families. Of course the continuation of that would never have achieved what we have today. The great North American mess.

Why *shouldn't* we stop buying things from this country, at least until such time as they can demonstrate that they have a credible record on these issues?

I'm all for competition, but it doesn't seem fair to ask our industries to match prices against competitors who are allowed to pump raw toxic waste into the air and water, benefit from slave labour, and seem to have rather low standards in regard to consumer safety.

-k

Argus blames the Chinese for being sneaky. Margrace blames the Chinese for being American wannabes. And Kimmy blames the Chinese for all manner of despicable activities.

----

If your neighbour finds a faster route to get to work in the morning, how does that affect you?

If you can't answer that question intelligently, you probably won't understand why this thread's title is silly.

[Argus]

If your neighbour finds a faster route to get to work in the morning, how does that affect you?

If you can't answer that question intelligently, you probably won't understand why this thread's title is silly.

If the faster way involves strapping a rocket engine to his car and endangering me and my kids by racing down the middle of the road I think I have a right to complain.

How about you go fill your mouth with some nice Chinese made, bacteria filled "Colgate", August, and get back to us?

[Riverwind]

I think this is time for the Chinese government to hire some heavy duty PR/lobbying frims in Washington, Brussels and maybe even Ottawa.

We should not be trading with a country that does not have a functioning legal/regulatory system. Why should we risk being poisoned or otherwise harmed by products from a country that is incapable of enforcing its own laws?

You also have to remember that the consumer no longer has a choice when it comes to buying products from china because:

1) All available brands in many categories come from china.

2) The Chinese content is hidden in products labelled with another country of origin.

2) is the most worrisome. A consumer may buy a jar of spaghetti sauce that is 'made in the USA' and be completely unaware that the product contains tomato paste from china.

That is why we need to government to step in and level the playing field with serious restrictions on products with content from china.

[betsy]

You also have to remember that the consumer no longer has a choice when it comes to buying products from china because:

1) All available brands in many categories come from china.

2) The Chinese content is hidden in products labelled with another country of origin.

2) is the most worrisome. A consumer may buy a jar of spaghetti sauce that is 'made in the USA' and be completely unaware that the product contains tomato paste from china.

Is this not against consumer law?

This is indeed worrisome....a lot of Chinese products had been recalled in the past due to lead content.

[Riverwind]

Is this not against consumer law?

No it is not. The country of origin is the place where the final product is produced. Another example: apple juice concentrate is imported from china, mixed with water and resold as a product 'made in canada'.

[Moxie]

Read labels, and if you suspect it's been made in China boycotte it. I do, I don't support a Communist Regime or a poisonous food chain. China gives new meaning to the word greedy buggers.

[SkyhookJackson]

Sadly, China owns us - Fearless Leader has charged his Iraqi war on a Chinese credit card. That is why the U.S. government is so reluctant to stop bacteria-ridden fish, tainted produce and deadly toys from coming into our country. All you can do is read labels and hope for the best and not buy the $3.99 a pound Chinese tilapia. I try to buy only whole foods from U.S. sources and keep my large vegetable garden going from early May to early November. I hope the Chinese clean up their act. It would be nice to buy a can of mandarin oranges again someday.

[runningdog]

Not a week goes by without a new news item about corruption and horrific labor practices in China.

Poisoned pet-food made from contaminated Chinese protein.

Corrupt inspectors being bribed to overlook gross deficiencies in product safety.

Corrupt inspectors being bribed to overlook deadly environmental practices.

Whistleblowers being thrown in jail.

This week, there was even an item about slaves. (you are clicking here for learn more!)

Why *shouldn't* we stop buying things from this country, at least until such time as they can demonstrate that they have a credible record on these issues?

I'm all for competition, but it doesn't seem fair to ask our industries to match prices against competitors who are allowed to pump raw toxic waste into the air and water, benefit from slave labour, and seem to have rather low standards in regard to consumer safety.

-k

good points Kimmy. This would mean that people would have to start boycotting most of the discount stores, including Walmart. I can't see this happening as most people have zero clue inregards to Chinas' trade policies, and even if they did, they can't afford to shop anywhere else.

[Bonam]

Imo it's a temporary issue. China has been getting plenty of international pressure to clean up its act, and gaining a better reputation for product safety and quality would be beneficial to the Chinese economy as well, and they know it. The problem isn't that they purposefully are trying to poison us with contaminated products, but just that their rate of economic growth in recent years has completely outstripped the capability of any regulatory bodies to keep track of everything.

As China modernizes, growth rates will slow, and regulatory bodies will be able to enforce better safety standards. I'd say in a decade or two, when China is a full fledged first world country, most of the problems in regards to product safety will have gone away. Until then, it's up to consumers to avoid buying products that they think are contaminated and up to import control agencies to increase the level of inspection to filter out dangerous goods, both of which is already happening.

As for the US losing its power over China, yes, that is true, but its also not necessarily a bad thing. A world that has two (or more) major powers competing with each other progresses much more quickly than a world that is dominated by just one nation.

[Riverwind]

The problem isn't that they purposefully are trying to poison us with contaminated products, but just that their rate of economic growth in recent years has completely outstripped the capability of any regulatory bodies to keep track of everything.

The problem is the corrupt communist government that expends huge amount of time ensuring that the Chinese people are kept as ignorant as possible. Such an attitude creates an environment where businesses that cut corners and cover it up can thrive because they have no fear of being exposed by the media and that government officials will assist with the cover up.

The Chinese government has been trying to crack down on counterfeiters for decades with zero success. There is no reason to believe they will be anymore successful stopping dangerous products.

[ScottSA]

As China modernizes, growth rates will slow, and regulatory bodies will be able to enforce better safety standards. I'd say in a decade or two, when China is a full fledged first world country, most of the problems in regards to product safety will have gone away. Until then, it's up to consumers to avoid buying products that they think are contaminated and up to import control agencies to increase the level of inspection to filter out dangerous goods, both of which is already happening.

All things being equal, I'd agree with you. Under the circumstances though, I think it much more likely though that China will not become a first world state anytime soon, and faces the more likely prospect of destablizing into either martial law or anarchy. The political infrastructure is simply not there to become a first world country. The military is largely self-regulating, the bureaucracy is better suited to the Ching dynasty than to the modern world, and the social dynamics are in a state of flux and have been since the turn of the century, from warlordism to militarism, to Japanese invasion, to communist militarism, to radical communist social change, and over the last 40 years back to capitalism. Add to that the minority problems, the inequal regional changes and a host of other problems, including perhaps most significantly a growing adventurism in foreign policy, and things don't look good for either China or anything China touches.

[kuzadd]

As China modernizes, growth rates will slow, and regulatory bodies will be able to enforce better safety standards. I'd say in a decade or two, when China is a full fledged first world country, most of the problems in regards to product safety will have gone away. Until then, it's up to consumers to avoid buying products that they think are contaminated and up to import control agencies to increase the level of inspection to filter out dangerous goods, both of which is already happening.

All things being equal, I'd agree with you. Under the circumstances though, I think it much more likely though that China will not become a first world state anytime soon, and faces the more likely prospect of destablizing into either martial law or anarchy. The political infrastructure is simply not there to become a first world country. The military is largely self-regulating, the bureaucracy is better suited to the Ching dynasty than to the modern world, and the social dynamics are in a state of flux and have been since the turn of the century, from warlordism to militarism, to Japanese invasion, to communist militarism, to radical communist social change, and over the last 40 years back to capitalism. Add to that the minority problems, the inequal regional changes and a host of other problems, including perhaps most significantly a growing adventurism in foreign policy, and things don't look good for either China or anything China touches.

scottsa: out of touch as always?

"In 2005, the top five economies in the world were the U.S., Japan, Germany, France and Britain. By 2050, Goldman Sachs estimates, they will be China, United States, India, Brazil and Mexico. What the Americans cannot accept is that at some point they will no longer be number one. "

China will be the top world economy.

It seems to be a widely accepted fact, this is certainly not the first time i have come across this type of projection.

Some have even stated a little sooner then 2050.

If the US continues to overextend itself, on it's little wacked out military missions, it will be sooner.

[Bonam]

and over the last 40 years back to capitalism.

Exactly, back to capitalism, the same system that got the rest of the first world to where it is now.

[ScottSA]

and over the last 40 years back to capitalism.

Exactly, back to capitalism, the same system that got the rest of the first world to where it is now.

Yes, but it drove Asia, and in particular the Pacific seaboard, into virtual bancruptcy in the mid 90s. One does not simply drag a third world state into the first world overnight. Sure it will someday drag itself into the first world, but it won't happen overnight, and it won't happen under it's current political system.

Oh, and to Kuzzad...go back and research what Goldman Sachs said about the "Pacific Tigers" in 1990. Then investigate what DID happen to the Pacific Tigers.

[Topaz]

The US is concerned over Iran and the Taliban getting aid from Iran. I heard a guy on the radio say that CHINA is supporting Iran and that is were the Taliban are getting their surface to air missiles to shoot down US aircraft. We already know how the Chinese govt treats their people but the all mighty $$ is not stopping US corporations from investing in this country!!! I don't understand their thinking. They stop US citizens from going to Cuba but politicans, CEO's etc go to China! Maybe, OBL is hiding in China and Bush knows this but doesn't want to get into with China because they hold 1 Bil US treasury notes.