Racism in Lethbridge Causes National Boycott of Tim Horton's

[geoffrey]

If natives were treated equally and not receive any special "status" from the govt then this "percieved" racism would end.

No it wouldn't. People will always make excuses to dislike other people based on the colour of their skin, the amount of money they make, the gender they choose to sleep with, and so on. You have to rationalise it because deep down inside you know it's wrong. Child-molesters, thieves, murderers all do the same thing.

I disagree with you BC Chick. All of my anger towards the FN are because of their privledged status. If they had equal rights and privledges under the law as I had, I simply would disregard their racial status. It's not productive to be racist.

But anger at FN isn't racist in a country like Canada, it's a political process. They are a bloc, a movement, a party even in a way. They are generally a unianimous protest group.

And for that, it creates anger (justifiable) towards them. If they received nothing special, I'm sure most people could care less and would just 'leave them alone'.

[Figleaf]

Next time she should write "NO DRUNK IDIOTS," and watch as the idiots complain and boycott Tim Hortons.

[Figleaf]

Racism lies just beneath the surface in Canada and unless we are outraged at even the most minor of expositions, we simply allow it to fester.

If natives were treated equally and not receive any special "status" from the govt then this "percieved" racism would end.

What do you propose to offer native peoples to buy out the 'status' that you want to end? Remember, that 'status' is part of a set of agreements, and thus are not something for the government to unilaterally end.

[Figleaf]

All of my anger towards the FN are because of their privledged status.

How much anger do you have? Enough to go out and rape and kill a native girl? 'Cause that seems to be part of the 'privileged status' the seem to have. That and the substandard housing, lack of medical care, legacy of being ripped of by officials, racist slurs, and residential schools. Yep, lots of 'privileges'.

And for that, it creates anger (justifiable) towards them. If they received nothing special, I'm sure most people could care less and would just 'leave them alone'.

How? By going back to Europe?

[stignasty]

All of my anger towards the FN are because of their privledged status.

How much anger do you have? Enough to go out and rape and kill a native girl? 'Cause that seems to be part of the 'privileged status' the seem to have. That and the substandard housing, lack of medical care, legacy of being ripped of by officials, racist slurs, and residential schools. Yep, lots of 'privileges'.

And for that, it creates anger (justifiable) towards them. If they received nothing special, I'm sure most people could care less and would just 'leave them alone'.

How? By going back to Europe?

For these privileges, they gave up their land and their way of life. To suggest that the native people have somehow benefited from the development of Canada is extremely self centered. Figleaf is right. If you want to do away with these perceived privileges, you have to turn the clock back to a time before the treaties were signed. As such, we have to look to the Royal Proclamation of 1763 which stated that the land belongs to the people that were living here first.

[geoffrey]

All of my anger towards the FN are because of their privledged status.

How much anger do you have? Enough to go out and rape and kill a native girl? 'Cause that seems to be part of the 'privileged status' the seem to have. That and the substandard housing, lack of medical care, legacy of being ripped of by officials, racist slurs, and residential schools. Yep, lots of 'privileges'.

Bullshit. This the past, you can continue to live in the past like the rest of the racists in this country, or get over it and look at the reality of today.

Today an Indian has way more rights and privledges as the rest of them.

Lots of white people have substandard housing, is that racism too? All of us have a lack of reasonable medical care.

It's a big load of shit to point the past. It's worse then the 'Israel is infaliable in all it does because of the past' crowd.

How? By going back to Europe?

Again, you can be pragmatic and live in today... or you can be a blind ideologue dedicated to reliving the past every waking minute. Apparently you've chosen the later.

There is no justification to base any additional rights and privledges based on DNA, ever. That's the bottom line here.

[Riverwind]

If you want to do away with these perceived privileges, you have to turn the clock back to a time before the treaties were signed. As such, we have to look to the Royal Proclamation of 1763 which stated that the land belongs to the people that were living here first.

The people who were living here in 1763 are no longer alive so it can't really give the land to them. Suggesting the descents of those people have a special claim over the land today is nothing but a perverse form of feudalism.

[gc1765]

Bullshit. This the past, you can continue to live in the past like the rest of the racists in this country, or get over it and look at the reality of today.

Except that, it's not in the past for many people. It is well known that a person who is abused is much more likely to abuse their own children.

[geoffrey]

Except that, it's not in the past for many people. It is well known that a person who is abused is much more likely to abuse their own children.

And I should pay for that why?!?!

Am I responsible for the actions of all white men?!? Your supporting the most brutal form of racism, because it gets off looking like the 'nice' thing to do.

I never abused any Indian, I never stole their land. I certainly should never pay a dime. Blaming me for the actions of people of the same colour 200 years ago is absolutely absurd and reeks of the dirtiest levels of racism.

[Riverwind]

Except that, it's not in the past for many people. It is well known that a person who is abused is much more likely to abuse their own children.

Providing financial support to clean up the mess created by dumb government policies is an absolute necessity. Using these past wrongs to justify permanent rights given to a specific ethnic group is wrong.

[stignasty]

Today an Indian has way more rights and privledges as the rest of them.

Lots of white people have substandard housing, is that racism too?

No, but it's racist to hang a sign that says "No Drunk Indians." It's also racist to justify that sign by whining about how wonderful the natives have life compared to us poor white-folk.

[gc1765]

Except that, it's not in the past for many people. It is well known that a person who is abused is much more likely to abuse their own children.

And I should pay for that why?!?!

Am I responsible for the actions of all white men?!? Your supporting the most brutal form of racism, because it gets off looking like the 'nice' thing to do.

I never abused any Indian, I never stole their land. I certainly should never pay a dime. Blaming me for the actions of people of the same colour 200 years ago is absolutely absurd and reeks of the dirtiest levels of racism.

whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there. I never said anything about you having to pay for it or being responsible for it. All I said was you can't pretend like what happened 50 years ago doesn't still impact people today.

[geoffrey]

whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down there. I never said anything about you having to pay for it or being responsible for it. All I said was you can't pretend like what happened 50 years ago doesn't still impact people today.

Sure it impacts people today. I agree. I don't see what I or anyone else other then those directly responsible have to do with it though?

I see people as individuals, not as parts of a racial collective. It's the mistake most FN supporters make. They blame the white people (often their own racial group) for their abuses. Many a white man did abuse FN people, but that doesn't matter.

The individuals should be held to account, not a racial group. And that's the current mess we live in. We are all being blamed for something none of us had a hand in.

[gc1765]

We are all being blamed for something none of us had a hand in.

I'm not blaming you for anything. I blame the politicians 50-100 years ago, yes, but I don't blame you and never have. All I ever said was don't pretend like things in the past don't have an impact on people today. If you don't want to give your money, that's completely understandable, but perhaps you could give some of your sympathy and understanding? At least it won't cost you anything.

[BC_chick]

But anger at FN isn't racist in a country like Canada, it's a political process. They are a bloc, a movement, a party even in a way. They are generally a unianimous protest group.

Sure things might improve with less political tension, I would agree with you there... but disappear as Drea was saying - never, I stand by what I said. Some people just dislike others for being different and use excuses to rationalise their hate. I think you may be projecting your own good nature onto others when saying that it's all about the politics.

[geoffrey]

I'm not blaming you for anything. I blame the politicians 50-100 years ago, yes, but I don't blame you and never have. All I ever said was don't pretend like things in the past don't have an impact on people today. If you don't want to give your money, that's completely understandable, but perhaps you could give some of your sympathy and understanding? At least it won't cost you anything.

It's unfortunate that alot of those kids grow up in substandard conditions, but it exists throughout Canada and on a much worse scale throughout the world.

As for the adults, they are just that, adults, and responsible for their own actions.

If we want to talk about programs that assist the kids get out of abusive situations, then I'm onboard with that. Beyond that I start to question what the motivation is.

Sure things might improve with less political tension, I would agree with you there... but disappear as Drea was saying - never, I stand by what I said. Some people just dislike others for being different and use excuses to rationalise their hate. I think you may be projecting your own good nature onto others when saying that it's all about the politics.

Perhaps to some extent. There will always be racists... but I don't think it would be as disporportionatly towards the FN as it is today.

[BC_chick]

Perhaps to some extent. There will always be racists... but I don't think it would be as disporportionatly towards the FN as it is today.

I dislike the politics surrounding Quebec, but that wouldn't excuse my behaviour if I were to put a sign up in the local Tim Horton's saying "no frogs allowed" and say, oh well, they brought it on themselves for all the political stunts they pull.

I would never do that though. Why? Because like you, I dislike the politics of some Quebecers, but I can distinguish between people and politics. This sign was clearly an indication of racism, it had nothing to do with politics.

[kimmy]

Next time she should write "NO DRUNK IDIOTS," and watch as the idiots complain and boycott Tim Hortons.

That would cost them about 90% of their business.

-k

[geoffrey]

I'm in no way supporting the action of the kid that posted the sign. It was wrong to do so... racist? Debateable but I'll say yes. Rude and disrespectful? Most definitely.

[BC_chick]

I'm in no way supporting the action of the kid that posted the sign. It was wrong to do so... racist? Debateable but I'll say yes. Rude and disrespectful? Most definitely.

Well, those actions were what Drea was justifying when I addressed her post. Either way, good to see we're on the same page, both about rationalisations as well as the actions of this kid.

[phdinoppression]

NOTHING will stop me from gettin' my large double double or iced cap... mmmm

Somebody driving thru probably taped it there. Nothing to do with the rest of the customers or the owner.

Now go out and get yer coffees! LOL

You see this kind of narrow comments is what native people have had to deal with since the first western settlers came to these lands, just turn your head the other way and do not acknowledge the problem. Now let me educate Mr. Drea. The Tim Hortons company has already taken action and punished the party involved with the sign. So you can rule out your theory of somebody drivin through slapping it up there. Also, There is a question of boycot. I belive this to be a good thing. Imagine a country that didn't have access to water and mines and natural gas. imagine a country that didn't have roads or forestry or animals and plant life. We are luck because Canada is a diverse country that does have these resources. Now imagine it all ripped away from you. what do you got now? These are just a few of the things that FN people have had to deal with. First Genocide , then Assimulation. Oppression is a way of life for FN people and it should not be so. When a Indian Band builds new homes or projects who do you think makes money off of the Indians? outside contractors thats who. When a big company moves in to treaty land to say "open up a mine or something like that", you know the first thing they promise is money and jobs. Did you know that these companies never keep their promises. do you know how many court claims are filed right now? thousands. and only maybe 2or3 will have a ruling and that probably takes 5 to 10 years. So when these situations happen who suffers? Fn peoples have suffered enough at the hands of westerners and today we have educated and well financed proffesional role models that have done everything to fit in to your society. They are your equals now. But, it is sad to say that society will still not share the same views. I believe today for Fn people that we are not being allowed to move forward as a whole and we are not falling back any further, I believe that society has us at a stand still " just turn your head the other way". I think that this situation with Tim Hortons is just a new beggining to the same old song. YES to all First Nation People stay away from Tim Hortons.

[White Doors]

"White man guilt" is the background motivator behind alot of bad policy today.

[stignasty]

Also, There is a question of boycot. I belive this to be a good thing. . . . I think that this situation with Tim Hortons is just a new beggining to the same old song. YES to all First Nation People stay away from Tim Hortons.

I disagree. I understand that by boycotting Tim Horton's (and by making it very public) it does put the issue into the public spotlight. However, it also makes a statement that Tim Horton's is solely responsible for an attitude that is a much larger animal. This is not an indication of how the company or even the employees think, it is an indication of how Canadians (as demonstrated by some on this board) think.

Publicize it, sure. Just remember that this was a symptom, not the cause. A boycott does nothing to address those deeper issues.

[noahbody]

we have educated and well financed proffesional role models that have done everything to fit in to your society. They are your equals now. But, it is sad to say that society will still not share the same views. I believe today for Fn people that we are not being allowed to move forward as a whole and we are not falling back any further, I believe that society has us at a stand still " just turn your head the other way". I think that this situation with Tim Hortons is just a new beggining to the same old song. YES to all First Nation People stay away from Tim Hortons.

One person does something racial at a Tim Hortons, therefore all Tim Hortons are bad. Isn't this the type of thinking behind racism?

Secondly, you mentioned there are professional role models who have fit into society, then mentioned FN people are not allowed to move forward as a whole. I would suggest this is because modern society is about the individual, not group success. Many native leaders have taken the role as union leader and claimed "we" can't get ahead. This is in contrast with the role models who have shown yes "you" can.

[phdinoppression]

"White man guilt" is the background motivator behind alot of bad policy today.

YES. But educating the white man to what has happened and still is happening is a better policy, Your key word is motivator. Well' where is the motivation for the white man today to make amends? All I see him doing is still running around eating up everything in his path. As far as this boycot goes don't we as a canadian citizen have the right to protest in a peaceful manner as well, according to the Constitution Act of Canada we reserve that right.