Radical Islam is Wrecking the World - Or, Why Can't Anyone Tell th

[AndrewL]

But pop music, sports, and patriotism rarely lead people to absolute views on the origin of the universe and the certainty of an afterlife. For me that is the crux of the problem. Such certainty in the afterlife cheapens the reality of the earthly life and makes the living and breathing dispensable.

How does "certainty in the afterlife" cheapen the reality of the earthly life or make the living dispensable?

Because the point of living is just a gateway to heaven. How do you think a suicide bomber justifies his acts?

How do you think a christian capitalist justifies the destruction of the earth?

Both are examples of how religious certainty about death cheapens actual life on earth.

Earth is not important to these people, they only really care about what happens after.

Andrew

[AndrewL]

the thread title says Radical Islam --- if this thread is intended to attack Islam then it needs to be removed as bigotry

Huh? Criticizing religion is not bigotry.

Andrew

[noahbody]

Jesus did not set out to start a religion, nor did Abraham. .

Jesus and Mohammed were similar in this respect. Why do you believe otherwise?

[newbie]

Islam has contributed nothing to humanity. Nothing, not even "Arabic" numerals.

link

[AndrewL]

Islam has contributed nothing to humanity. Nothing, not even "Arabic" numerals.

link

So called Arabic numerals actually date back to the 5th century BCE India. The very fist use of the '0' was found on a cave wall in India dated long before Islam was even a religion.

Andrew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals

[ScottSA]

And where exactly are we today? Sure, in many western nations we have a level of freedom that is mostly unprecedented in human history, and we have a medical science that is really quite a marvel. But from my view this is more a function of our understanding of the natural world, and in more modern times, our insistence on secular principles in government. Without science we have no medical and industrial revolution, and it is those things that put us where we are today more than anything. Im not claiming that the world should be governed by science as if it it is some great panacea for human betterment, but at the very least a scientific/agnostic predisposition towards the world and human spirituality is far superior to an insistence on ancient texts written by men who were very ignorant of things that are now relevant to us.

Perhaps you should read my post again.

[ScottSA]

... Woody obviously hasn't read the Koran or anything about it or ...

This is a lie. No surprise, tho, the guy has been upset with me ever since, after I showed up his failure to understand the meaning of the word 'hegemony,' he was permanently banned from another forum and he blamed me for it.

Two things: If you had read the Koran, you'd know that Allah allegedly told Mohammed precisely what to do. Not in some parable, but right from the lips of Allah to Mohammed's ear. The only one lying here ain't me.

I was banned from some forum and I blame you because you were right about hegemony? I don't know what hegemony means? What exactly are you on about? I have no idea what this part of your rant is about, but it reminds me of some dishevelled bum in a bar mumbling incorently about how another beer will fix his life. Perhaps you should have that professionally looked at.

[Argus]

The big problem is that they never developed the idea of seperation of church and state. There is nothing in the Koran equivilent to "render under Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God that which is God's. There is no such separation in the Islamic world. That has kept them fixated on their religion for centuries. Everything revolves around God. Everything. While Westerners and Easterners have been pouring into Engineering and Science schools for decades Islamic scholars mostly just study the Koran, and argue intricate alternative meanings of minor points of Islamic law and scripture. If a boy is smart in Canada we say he should be a lawyer or doctor or engineer. If a boy is smart in an Islamic country they say he should study the Koran. As for changing societies biases and beliefs - as most of the world has - you can't do that when your entire culture is built up around an interpretation of a religious text which governs every aspect of your life - and when that reopening that text to interpretation is heresy punishable by prison time.

Because of all that the Muslim world has been stuck in place for centuries, and is now actually regressing.

[myata]

That may very well be so, Argus. Or, could be simply a blip in the endless play of things. Remenber, it took Europe next to a thousand years to climb out of its own dark age.

One question it still does not answer, even if we presume that technical inferiority and regression is true in this place and time, is whether it gives us, as technologically superior race, the right to go to them and meddle in their affairs? Expropriate their land, depose and install governments, play one group against another, pump weapons to our proxies, and so on. And if we say that it does, based purely on technological advantage wouldn't it be like saying that might is the right? I.e. the two thousand years of our history, which may very well have been the bloodiest of all existing civilizations, we really havent' learned that much.

[AndrewL]

And where exactly are we today? Sure, in many western nations we have a level of freedom that is mostly unprecedented in human history, and we have a medical science that is really quite a marvel. But from my view this is more a function of our understanding of the natural world, and in more modern times, our insistence on secular principles in government. Without science we have no medical and industrial revolution, and it is those things that put us where we are today more than anything. Im not claiming that the world should be governed by science as if it it is some great panacea for human betterment, but at the very least a scientific/agnostic predisposition towards the world and human spirituality is far superior to an insistence on ancient texts written by men who were very ignorant of things that are now relevant to us.

Perhaps you should read my post again.

I did read your post, and your argument comes across as if someone were singing the virtues of chemotherapy after it cured their lung cancer, when in fact they could have just avoided lung cancer and chemo altogether if they just didn't smoke.

Andrew

[DogOnPorch]

Remenber, it took Europe next to a thousand years to climb out of its own dark age.

The Dark Ages...a loose term at best, began with the 'fall' of Rome in 476AD...it ended with the Battle of Hastings in 1066AD which is pretty much the start of the classic High Middle-Ages. A period of about 590-600 years, anyways...not a thousand. Probably seemed like a thousand....

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I've heard drug experts say they believe if penicillin were discovered today, the FDA wouldn't license it.

---President Ronald Reagan

[scribblet]

it's not "radical Islam" under discussion; it's Islam.

the thread title says Radical Islam --- if this thread is intended to attack Islam then it needs to be removed as bigotry

In that case next time some one starts attacking Zionists or those evil Christian fundamentalists better remove that one too.

[Guthrie]

it's not "radical Islam" under discussion; it's Islam.

the thread title says Radical Islam --- if this thread is intended to attack Islam then it needs to be removed as bigotry

In that case next time some one starts attacking Zionists or those evil Christian fundamentalists better remove that one too.

so, are you saying ALL Christians are evil? and when you say, 'Zionist,' do you include all Jews into that group??? or do you just practice your bigotry against Muslims?

[scribblet]

it's not "radical Islam" under discussion; it's Islam.

the thread title says Radical Islam --- if this thread is intended to attack Islam then it needs to be removed as bigotry

In that case next time some one starts attacking Zionists or those evil Christian fundamentalists better remove that one too.

so, are you saying ALL Christians are evil? and when you say, 'Zionist,' do you include all Jews into that group??? or do you just practice your bigotry against Muslims?

Not saying anything of the kind don't put words in my mouth, otherwise Balderdash

[Guthrie]

it's not "radical Islam" under discussion; it's Islam.

the thread title says Radical Islam --- if this thread is intended to attack Islam then it needs to be removed as bigotry

In that case next time some one starts attacking Zionists or those evil Christian fundamentalists better remove that one too.

so, are you saying ALL Christians are evil? and when you say, 'Zionist,' do you include all Jews into that group??? or do you just practice your bigotry against Muslims?

Not saying anything of the kind don't put words in my mouth, otherwise Balderdash

ok, what is it you were attempting to say?

[ScottSA]

And where exactly are we today? Sure, in many western nations we have a level of freedom that is mostly unprecedented in human history, and we have a medical science that is really quite a marvel. But from my view this is more a function of our understanding of the natural world, and in more modern times, our insistence on secular principles in government. Without science we have no medical and industrial revolution, and it is those things that put us where we are today more than anything. Im not claiming that the world should be governed by science as if it it is some great panacea for human betterment, but at the very least a scientific/agnostic predisposition towards the world and human spirituality is far superior to an insistence on ancient texts written by men who were very ignorant of things that are now relevant to us.

Perhaps you should read my post again.

I did read your post, and your argument comes across as if someone were singing the virtues of chemotherapy after it cured their lung cancer, when in fact they could have just avoided lung cancer and chemo altogether if they just didn't smoke.

Andrew

Well, even supposing things were as simplistic as all that, I guess it's something to take up with the Romans for having the effrontry to fall. Unfortunately things are not that simple after all, and I sincerely doubt the Romans would have succeeded in building a similar society, simply because the evolution of western thought is not a unilinear thing. Are you suggesting that the renaissance was merely a pick up point where Greco-Roman thought left off? It wasn't you know. The renaissance was quite a novel thiong, and had it's roots far more deeply embedded in the reformation than in Rome.

[jbg]

So yes, Radical Islam has brought nothing of value to the world. But i really have trouble seeing what any other religion has brought to the world except superstition and resistance to knowledge of the natural world and excuses for murder. Religion is a cancerous tumor on the human capacity for compassion, growth, understanding, and progress.

What do we do about it though?

Andrew

A few examples of positive contributions to society coming almost purely from a religious motive:

1. Link here about Montreal Jewish Hospital - The Montreal Jewish General Hospital (JGH) was built with Jewish money, and has been maintained from its inception with many millions of dollars annually, donated through legacies and trusts from the Jewish community who have long since died.
   But there are many Jews who still reside in Montreal, or who have family living in Montreal, or people like Anne and myself who live outside of Quebec but still use the hospital, who contribute to the JGH every year.
   *snip*
   In no time at all, the Montreal Jewish General Hospital became one of the best hospitals in the world. I don’t exaggerate. The JGH is really that good.
   
2. Aneglo Rancalli, eventually known as Pope John XXIII (link)
   NEW YORK, OCT. 26, 2005 (Zenit.org).- A Jewish leader considers the Second Vatican Council's declaration "Nostra Aetate" of 40 years ago a landmark that completely redefined relations between Catholics and Jews.
   *snip*
   Roncalli's risks
   He said that, according to research reports carried out by this committee, "Angelo Roncalli (later known as Pope John XXIII) risked his position and security by providing thousands of Turkish visas, 'temporary' baptismal certificates, and immigration certificates, authorizing the entry to Palestine of Hungarian Jews persecuted by the Nazis."
   "According to testimonies given at the Nuremberg trials, his interventions helped to save tens of thousands of people," Tenembaum continued. "Catholic sources point out that about 80,000 certificates were issued. Roncalli was also involved in the fate of Jews of France, Slovakia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Romania and Italy.
   "Monsignor Roncalli not only acted directly to save thousands of men, women and children condemned to extermination, but he was also a tireless person who, during the war, denounced before the Vatican and Allied nations the genocide carried out by the Nazis; and
   
3. Link to speech given by Baptist Minister Martin Luther King
   Martin Luther King, Jr., a Baptist minister, was a driving force in the push for racial equality in the 1950's and the 1960's. In 1963, King and his staff focused on Birmingham, Alabama. They marched and protested non-violently, raising the ire of local officials who sicced water cannon and police dogs on the marchers, whose ranks included teenagers and children. The bad publicity and break-down of business forced the white leaders of Birmingham to concede to some anti-segregation demands.
   (Excerpts from speech)I am happy to join with you today in what will go down in history as the greatest demonstration for freedom in the history of our nation.
   Five score years ago, a great American, in whose symbolic shadow we stand today, signed the Emancipation Proclamation. This momentous decree came as a great beacon light of hope to millions of Negro slaves who had been seared in the flames of withering injustice. It came as a joyous daybreak to end the long night of their captivity.
   *snip*
   Go back to Mississippi, go back to Alabama, go back to South Carolina, go back to Georgia, go back to Louisiana, go back to the slums and ghettos of our northern cities, knowing that somehow this situation can and will be changed. Let us not wallow in the valley of despair.
   I say to you today, my friends, so even though we face the difficulties of today and tomorrow, I still have a dream. It is a dream deeply rooted in the American dream.
   I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
   I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.
   I have a dream that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.
   I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
   I have a dream today.
   I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right there in Alabama, little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.
   I have a dream today.
   I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight, and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.
   

[Guthrie]

Link

Project Overview

The Islamic Relief Healthcare Programme has been implemented in Ingushetia since 2000. From January 2002 the Healthcare Programmes in Sputnik and Alina IDP camps have been sponsored by CAFOD (Catholic Fund for Overseas Development), and the "Bella" clinic has been funded by HCI (Human Concern International) Canada. Islamic Relief also works in partnership with UNICEF.

It is very rare for a patient attending the clinics to have a single health problem. Generally most of the patients suffer from at least 2 or 3 diseases.

Children suffer from serious diseases that are often accompanied by indigestion, while adults suffer from chronic diseases of the internal systems

[ScottSA]

Link

Project Overview

The Islamic Relief Healthcare Programme has been implemented in Ingushetia since 2000. From January 2002 the Healthcare Programmes in Sputnik and Alina IDP camps have been sponsored by CAFOD (Catholic Fund for Overseas Development), and the "Bella" clinic has been funded by HCI (Human Concern International) Canada. Islamic Relief also works in partnership with UNICEF.

Ingushetia must be thrilled Woody. Is that before or after it was shut down for funneling money to terrorists? Oh, and look at this:

Islamic Relief (IR) does not meet the following 5 Standards for Charity Accountability. http://charityreports.give.org/Public/Repo...?CharityID=1265

Oh dear. I wonder if they use those wonderful traditional Islamic medicines like...ummm...whatever they used to use in the good old days before they beheaded all the doctors? I bet they work better than modern western medicine.

[Guthrie]

Link

Project Overview

The Islamic Relief Healthcare Programme has been implemented in Ingushetia since 2000. From January 2002 the Healthcare Programmes in Sputnik and Alina IDP camps have been sponsored by CAFOD (Catholic Fund for Overseas Development), and the "Bella" clinic has been funded by HCI (Human Concern International) Canada. Islamic Relief also works in partnership with UNICEF.

Ingushetia must be thrilled Woody. Is that before or after it was shut down for funneling money to terrorists? Oh, and look at this:

Islamic Relief (IR) does not meet the following 5 Standards for Charity Accountability. http://charityreports.give.org/Public/Repo...?CharityID=1265

Oh dear. I wonder if they use those wonderful traditional Islamic medicines like...ummm...whatever they used to use in the good old days before they beheaded all the doctors? I bet they work better than modern western medicine.

here is the kind of racist clap trap this thread is a magnet for

[mcqueen625]

Guthrie;

Certainly, modern mathematics is still built on the work of Islamic scholars?

Islamic scholars are defined as what? Only males, since these radicals deem that female are little more than chattel and are not allowed to be educated? Think how smart these extremists would be if they became enlightened and actually stepped out of the 7th and 8th centuries. Instead of developing their shills at building bombs and finding cowards with a screw loose to strapped these bombs around their bodies or loading them into a vehicle and deliver them with the purpose of killing as many people as possible? The crazy part is that it does not seem to matter whether those killed are also Muslims. Look at Iraq for God's sake they're targeting other Muslims for death, now that makes a lot of sense especially if their declared enemy is the West.

The West is not going anywhere, and the sooner these radicals are eliminated from the world the sooner people can get back to living a peaceful existence. Just remember it was these radical who brought this fight to North America through 9/11, and for whatever reason they do not want peace, what they want is for the world to convert to this backward radicalism. Mainstream Islamists proclaim that Islam is not all about violence yet these same supposed moderates are not willing to stop the radicals, so to me the absence of their willingness to stop these radicals is in fact condoning this action.

The World was appalled by the ongoing civil war in Ireland between the Catholics and the Protestants, yet this same world is now willing to make excuses for radical Islam to declare war on the West simply because they do not like the idea that Westerners are not flocking to convert to their brand of radical Islam. Talk about intolerence, when they would rather kill Westerners than to allow people the free-will to think and worship as we see fit. I am Christian, but if the only choice was radical Islam which holds no value for human life, or nothing I would choose no religious affiliation.

[Guthrie]

and that is the other racist clap trap this thread draws

[ScottSA]

and that is the other racist clap trap this thread draws

And this is the typical lame argument we get when kumquats try to argue but find that they can't remember their name much less respond with a point.

[GostHacked]

Islamic scholars are defined as what? Only males, since these radicals deem that female are little more than chattel and are not allowed to be educated?

And women in the western world were only given the right to vote only about 6 decades ago. There is still a mentality in many western cultures that the MAN is the MAN, and women are secondary. So if you think that Islam needs growing up, so does the rest of the world in order to help with the growing. It takes a long time for change in a society. Unless some outside force decides to say what is what. And well history shows us how that plays out.

[ScottSA]

Islamic scholars are defined as what? Only males, since these radicals deem that female are little more than chattel and are not allowed to be educated?

And women in the western world were only given the right to vote only about 6 decades ago. There is still a mentality in many western cultures that the MAN is the MAN, and women are secondary. So if you think that Islam needs growing up, so does the rest of the world in order to help with the growing. It takes a long time for change in a society. Unless some outside force decides to say what is what. And well history shows us how that plays out.

So, the moral equivalency meme is stooping to these depths? Western civilization is no different from a civilization which bags it's female chattel and stones them to death for being raped because generations ago women didn't have the vote in the west? Are you serious?