Is Harper being Clarked/Mulroneyed?

[August1991]

To be Clarked? That means to be turned into an Ottawa politico. No doubt, at some point in his life, Joe Clark was an Albertan. Whatever that means, he lost it somewhere along the path.

To be Mulroneyed? That means to be turned into a Liberal. No doubt, at some point in his life, Brian Mulroney was a fiscal conservative who wanted to change things for the better. Then he decided that it was easier to pander.

So. Has Harper been Clarked? Mulroneyed? Already, so fast?

[geoffrey]

I think this idea is more of a reflection on Canadians in general than Harper himself. Harper hasn't been Clarked from my impression, but he's certainly been Mulroneyed, especially in regards to dealing to Quebec.

The bottom line is now, today in Canada, you have to sell to the west to gain your minority, then preach autonomy and throw gifts at Quebec for your majority (all before the west gets so angry they form another protest party). Hold that for 5 years and then your done. That is, for a conservative to be elected.

As a westerner, I've come to the conclusion that we just can't win, not even with our own guy in the PMO. Our views were better represented, better defended and we got better results with Mr. Manning sitting across from Chretien then Harper in the big man's chair himself.

I'd take a strong, Western opposition (along the lines of the BQ this time, not more asking for the RoC's support) to a Liberal government over what we have today.

There is no conservatism in Harper's policy. None at all, especially on the fiscal side.

If I can't elect a fiscal conservative that wants to pull the government out of my life just a little bit, then people in my position (many Albertans) need to start taking a long hard look at pulling ourselves out of the government... leaving Canada so our views can really be represented. We can stand on our own just fine, I don't see why we shouldn't.

The current Federalism has been a failure to the West. It needs to change now, or we should just leave.

[Shakeyhands]

you are funny Geoffrey.

[Who's Doing What?]

I'd take a strong, Western opposition (along the lines of the BQ this time, not more asking for the RoC's support) to a Liberal government over what we have today.

So can your local Liberal candidate expect your support in the next election?

[scribblet]

I don't think there's any doubt that Harper is moving further towards the centre, maybe simply because he has a minority gov't and has to be more flexible and give a little bit to all. Heck, maybe a minority gov't is really the way to go.

[M.Dancer]

The current Federalism has been a failure to the West. It needs to change now, or we should just leave.

You want some cheese to go with that?

Jesus Murphy.....basically what you are asking for a political clout greater than what your population will give you...in effect, an Albertan dictatorship....whine whine whine...if we can't play by our rules we're taking our pro0vince and are going home......shit, the west just about owns Ottawa and now that the Reeeeform party/ CCRAParty/Alliance Party/Conservative Party finally has a leader who is palpable to the MAJORITY of mainstream Canada, one who is politically mature enough to see that the vision of Canada is greater than Edmonton, Red Deer and Fort Fred McMurry what do we start to hear from the fringes.......more fucking whine and cheese...........

[Leafless]

To be Clarked? That means to be turned into an Ottawa politico. No doubt, at some point in his life, Joe Clark was an Albertan. Whatever that means, he lost it somewhere along the path.

To be Mulroneyed? That means to be turned into a Liberal. No doubt, at some point in his life, Brian Mulroney was a fiscal conservative who wanted to change things for the better. Then he decided that it was easier to pander.

So. Has Harper been Clarked? Mulroneyed? Already, so fast?

Speaking of pandering, you have left out the most important political transformation of all and that is Harper has been 'Quebeced'.

August, you could have easily summed up this nonsensical post into saying, that the boundaries of a corrupt dysfunctional political system knows and has no limits to the degree of personal corruption one must endure in order to politically survive in this country.

[fellowtraveller]

To be Clarked? That means to be turned into an Ottawa politico. No doubt, at some point in his life, Joe Clark was an Albertan. Whatever that means, he lost it somewhere along the path.

To be Mulroneyed? That means to be turned into a Liberal. No doubt, at some point in his life, Brian Mulroney was a fiscal conservative who wanted to change things for the better. Then he decided that it was easier to pander.

So. Has Harper been Clarked? Mulroneyed? Already, so fast?

Joe Calrk was never an Albertan, he was born and will die a simpering weiner filled with mush, one of the worst PMs ever. he got nothing done in his short tenure. Actually, that might not be such such a bad thing.

No, I'd have to agree with the notion that Harper is in the process of being Quebeced.

[Topaz]

To be Clarked? That means to be turned into an Ottawa politico. No doubt, at some point in his life, Joe Clark was an Albertan. Whatever that means, he lost it somewhere along the path.

To be Mulroneyed? That means to be turned into a Liberal. No doubt, at some point in his life, Brian Mulroney was a fiscal conservative who wanted to change things for the better. Then he decided that it was easier to pander.

So. Has Harper been Clarked? Mulroneyed? Already, so fast?

Joe Calrk was never an Albertan, he was born and will die a simpering weiner filled with mush, one of the worst PMs ever. he got nothing done in his short tenure. Actually, that might not be such such a bad thing.

No, I'd have to agree with the notion that Harper is in the process of being Quebeced.

Lets see.. Harper born in Ontario, moved to Alberta, was a Liberal, Reformer, Alliance and now a Conservative. It seems to me Harper has be Harperized! Meaning whatever is best for Harper.

[geoffrey]

So can your local Liberal candidate expect your support in the next election?

No. I'm not going to trade bad for worse.

You want some cheese to go with that?

Not if it's inflated Quebec cheese.

Jesus Murphy.....basically what you are asking for a political clout greater than what your population will give you...in effect, an Albertan dictatorship....whine whine whine...if we can't play by our rules we're taking our pro0vince and are going home......shit, the west just about owns Ottawa and now that the Reeeeform party/ CCRAParty/Alliance Party/Conservative Party finally has a leader who is palpable to the MAJORITY of mainstream Canada, one who is politically mature enough to see that the vision of Canada is greater than Edmonton, Red Deer and Fort Fred McMurry what do we start to hear from the fringes.......more fucking whine and cheese...........

I disagree strongly. Between Alberta and BC, we have a population nearly equal to Quebec and economic activity ~25% greater than Quebec. We don't see that reality in politics when compared to the political clout of Quebec.

I don't blame the rest of Canada, they should be out fighting for their political representation as well, and I certainly don't want Alberta controlling the lives of Quebecers or Ontarians. But I don't want that region controlling the way we do things out west.

And I saw some potential for change with Harper, being from my riding, but in the end we saw Quebec pandering that makes the Liberals look like loyal Albertans. He hasn't put anything into policy that is really a big issue thing for Albertans.

And again, I don't blame him, he's got an election to win, just like Mulroney. You can't win by giving anything to Alberta. So I figure that means the system is terribly flawed, when a province population 7 million controls much more of the political game than a richer two provinces population a tad short of 7 million.

Canada can't work, it never could, we just pretended too long. Alberta's interests will never be Ontario's. Newfoundlands will never be Manitobas. In fact, there are very few regions in Canada that would have similar interests. So instead of having half the country suffer at the whim of the other half and switch that back and forth every 10 years or so, I think we should just split her up and let everyone make their own decisions more regionally.

There is no reason why we can't participate in mutual defense, combined foreign policy, that sort of thing. But in terms of services, taxation and other domestic policy, it all should be in the provinces hands.

After all, that's how Canada was designed, but it quickly became not that way. Look at the difference in your Federal and Provincial tax rates, my effective rates were 15.68% federally and 7.5% provincially excluding any education amounts (which actually lower provincial even faster). That said, 90% of the services I use, which is pretty typical, come from the provincial government, paid for by transfers from Ottawa.

That allows whoever is in Ottawa to chart their course giving to likely areas of support, and forgetting the rest (including Harper forgetting Alberta, where else can we go?).

Way too much power in Ottawa. And Harper is only ramping it up with more transfers to fix the fiscal imbalance, someone committed to decentralisation would have cut the Federal tax rate and let the provinces take up the slack. He didn't, so he lost in my books.

[M.Dancer]

The above post clearly illustrates why the Reeeeform party/CCRAParty were doomed to be forever a fringe regional blip.....

Between Alberta and BC, we have a population nearly equal to Quebec and economic activity ~25% greater than Quebec.

Boy, the fixation about Quebec.....try adding Ontario to that central Canadian mix....you know, the provinces that gave the Resurected Conservatives the minority and will most likely give them the majority....btw......economic activity is irrelevant in a democracy

[geoffrey]

Boy, the fixation about Quebec.....try adding Ontario to that central Canadian mix....you know, the provinces that gave the Resurected Conservatives the minority and will most likely give them the majority....

Good for Ontario. They are getting theirs too, Harper is building a new subway isn't he? Since when is bulding subways a Federal job? It's ridiculous, Federal powers and spending have skyrocketed under Mr. Firewalls.

btw......economic activity is irrelevant in a democracy

But not in reality. You can't expect a marginalised region to pay the bills for the rest forever.

[Catchme]

As a westerner, I've come to the conclusion that we just can't win, not even with our own guy in the PMO.

Heh, stop broadbrushing a notion that Harper is "our" guy. You geoffery are NOT representative of ALL westerners.

Our views were better represented, better defended and we got better results with Mr. Manning sitting across from Chretien then Harper in the big man's chair himself.

Well, you could be able to vote for Mr Manning, or at least support him again soon.

May, however, remains adamant that the next parliament will feature at least one Green MP: a while back, she made cryptic remarks about having a “star candidate” for the Green Party in Alberta, where the Greens have traditionally been the strongest. According to May, her star is so popular that (conservative) Albertans will vote for him (or her) no matter what his party affiliation is. Based on her description, the only “star” to fit this profile is Preston Manning, formerly of the right-wing Reform Party/Canadian Alliance. Manning has become quite the environmentalist over the last year or so, giving speeches and writing articles about his new “green-conservative movement”. If Manning is that star May keeps talking about, there is no doubt that he will indeed return to the House of Commons, but he will be elected on his name and reputation and not because of May’s leadership.

http://www.albertapundit.com/?p=1336

I'd take a strong, Western opposition (along the lines of the BQ this time, not more asking for the RoC's

Again AB is NOT 'the west'

The current Federalism has been a failure to the West. It needs to change now, or we should just leave.

Oh yes, the wst, meaning of course AB, is so hard done by. And even if you do mean BC, you have to be part of the group of 3 that feels this way.

[M.Dancer]

Boy, the fixation about Quebec.....try adding Ontario to that central Canadian mix....you know, the provinces that gave the Resurected Conservatives the minority and will most likely give them the majority....

Since when is bulding subways a Federal job?

When the voters and tax payers of Ontario asked for federal funding......didn't I hear some yapping awhile back from the otherside of the house about infrastucture....well, a LRT is infrastructure....and it isn't, BTW, a subway....

The GTA has a population hovering around 5.3 million....that's two million more than the Province of Alberta. Thes people are the power house of the Canadian economy, and unless we want the chaos and sprawl of LA, developing infrastucture is the sensible thing for any governement that has it's eye on the health of the nation.

[geoffrey]

Not a Federal responsibility.

[M.Dancer]

Not a Federal responsibility.

No per se it isn't....fostering a healthy nation is.....sort of like the Conservative's Green plan....not a federal responsibility, per se....

One Day Calgary may grow into a big City it it will need a modern transit system....or maybe the voters will want an urban sprawl connected by dead strips of highway......

Your definitions of what are and aren't federal responsibities is so narrow you would have to be two dimensional to go along withit. Needless to say the majority of Canadians disagree, and that why a Mature Conservative party is in power today and not the Reform.

[Michael Bluth]

Needless to say the majority of Canadians disagree, and that why a Mature Conservative party is in power today and not the Reform.

So you agree that the Conservative Party of Canada is measurably different from the previous two parties that preceeded it as the Official Opposition?

Then why post this?

now that the Reeeeform party/ CCRAParty/Alliance Party/Conservative Party finally has a leader who is palpable to the MAJORITY of mainstream Canada

Did you change your opinion in the 3 1/2 hours between your posts? Or are you having trouble maintaining consistency?

I personally think the CPC is significantly different from the Reform or the Alliance. I never voted for either party in a Federal election, but I do support the CPC.

[M.Dancer]

Needless to say the majority of Canadians disagree, and that why a Mature Conservative party is in power today and not the Reform.

So you agree that the Conservative Party of Canada is measurably different from the previous two parties that preceeded it as the Official Opposition?

Then why post this?

now that the Reeeeform party/ CCRAParty/Alliance Party/Conservative Party finally has a leader who is palpable to the MAJORITY of mainstream Canada

Did you change your opinion in the 3 1/2 hours between your posts? Or are you having trouble maintaining consistency?

I personally think the CPC is significantly different from the Reform or the Alliance. I never voted for either party in a Federal election, but I do support the CPC.

No change in opinion...but this....

Reeeeform party/ CCRAParty/Alliance Party/Conservative Party

represents the evolution of the party from fringe to mainstream.....

Not sure what opinion you see as changing, since they both state that the conservative party has matured to the point where they are accepted by mainstream Canada.

[Canadian Blue]

Lets see.. Harper born in Ontario, moved to Alberta, was a Liberal, Reformer, Alliance and now a Conservative. It seems to me Harper has be Harperized! Meaning whatever is best for Harper.

Topaz how many times do we have to go over this fallacious argument.

1. Harper was a Liberal in high school, I believe Trudeau was a New Democrat before joining the Liberals, in all honesty who cares what a politicians previous political affiliation was thirty years ago.

2. Harper was a PC until the Reform Party was created, the Reform Party dissolved to create the Canadian Alliance, which then united with the PC's to create the CPC. So Harper hasn't jumped ship much, it doesn't make much sense for Harper to be a part of a non-existent party.

[Guest chilipeppers]

Lets see.. Harper born in Ontario, moved to Alberta, was a Liberal, Reformer, Alliance and now a Conservative. It seems to me Harper has be Harperized! Meaning whatever is best for Harper.

Topaz how many times do we have to go over this fallacious argument.

1. Harper was a Liberal in high school, I believe Trudeau was a New Democrat before joining the Liberals, in all honesty who cares what a politicians previous political affiliation was thirty years ago.

2. Harper was a PC until the Reform Party was created, the Reform Party dissolved to create the Canadian Alliance, which then united with the PC's to create the CPC. So Harper hasn't jumped ship much, it doesn't make much sense for Harper to be a part of a non-existent party.

I think Harper is a Liberal at heart, my gosh other than wanting to reform gov't that is.

[Topaz]

The above post clearly illustrates why the Reeeeform party/CCRAParty were doomed to be forever a fringe regional blip.....

Between Alberta and BC, we have a population nearly equal to Quebec and economic activity ~25% greater than Quebec.

Boy, the fixation about Quebec.....try adding Ontario to that central Canadian mix....you know, the provinces that gave the Resurected Conservatives the minority and will most likely give them the majority....btw......economic activity is irrelevant in a democracy

Voters have to remember if you vote and give the Cons a majority than that means you believe in EVERYTHING Harper has done since being PM. That includes keeping the troops over there fighting. If you don't ,than keep him a minority govt.

[madmax]

Voters have to remember if you vote and give the Cons a majority than that means you believe in EVERYTHING Harper has done since being PM. That includes keeping the troops over there fighting. If you don't ,than keep him a minority govt.

Harper is following through on the Liberals committment to an expanded mission of counter insurgency. Whether or not you agree with the methods employed or its results, there isn't any difference between the CPC or the LPC.

So what are you suggesting? Vote for another party to keep Harper to a minority?

[Fat Freddie]

Lets see.. Harper born in Ontario, moved to Alberta, was a Liberal, Reformer, Alliance and now a Conservative. It seems to me Harper has be Harperized! Meaning whatever is best for Harper.

Topaz how many times do we have to go over this fallacious argument.

1. Harper was a Liberal in high school, I believe Trudeau was a New Democrat before joining the Liberals, in all honesty who cares what a politicians previous political affiliation was thirty years ago.

2. Harper was a PC until the Reform Party was created, the Reform Party dissolved to create the Canadian Alliance, which then united with the PC's to create the CPC. So Harper hasn't jumped ship much, it doesn't make much sense for Harper to be a part of a non-existent party.

All politicians jump from party to party during their crawl to the top. A great example of that is Ontario's very own Bob Rae. he's slept with every party except the Conservatives. For that reason alone I'll vote Conservative because the other parties have proven their inability to lead and balance the budget. I also think the criminal elements being right in your face with the NDP and Liberals makes it an easy decision. i may not love Harper, but he at least has a clean history of knowing how to deal with finances.

[Michael Bluth]

Voters have to remember if you vote and give the Cons a majority than that means you believe in EVERYTHING Harper has done since being PM. That includes keeping the troops over there fighting. If you don't ,than keep him a minority govt.

Is that really what a CPC majority would mean?

Does that mean voters believed in EVERYTHING Chretien did before the 1997 and 2000 elections?

I don't think so...

[Canadian Blue]

If Harper got a majority, I think the major changes we would see would be with regards to the provinces. I believe the federal government would hand over more responsibilities to the provinces, and respect their jurisdiction more than previous governments. I just don't see any religious right faction taking power anytime soon.