jbg Posted October 25, 2008 Author Report Posted October 25, 2008 I'm jumping in here late and may be misunderstanding what was said... but are you implying that a country's citizens must be patriotic in order to be respected?What does it mean, exactly, to be patriotic anyhow? Patriotism means tears coming to your eyes when the national anthem is sung, or even when the flag is waving in the breeze. Patriotism means thinking "whatever the quality of the leaders, my land is a good land". Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Smallc Posted October 25, 2008 Report Posted October 25, 2008 (edited) Patriotism means tears coming to your eyes when the national anthem is sung, or even when the flag is waving in the breeze. Patriotism means thinking "whatever the quality of the leaders, my land is a good land". And your sure that a great many Canadians don't have those same reactions to the anthem, don't think that way of this country? I can tell you that I do and many others do as well. Edited October 25, 2008 by Smallc Quote
Kitch Posted October 25, 2008 Report Posted October 25, 2008 And your sure that a great many Canadians don't have those same reactions to the anthem, don't think that way of this country? I can tell you that I do and many others do as well. What is it about a country that can make a person so emotional? Is this necessarily a good thing? Quote
jbg Posted October 25, 2008 Author Report Posted October 25, 2008 What is it about a country that can make a person so emotional?Is this necessarily a good thing? Yes it is. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Guest American Woman Posted October 25, 2008 Report Posted October 25, 2008 What is it about a country that can make a person so emotional?Is this necessarily a good thing? Not if they blindly support their leaders. I have a button that says "proud to be American, ashamed of my government." Quote
Kitch Posted October 25, 2008 Report Posted October 25, 2008 Yes it is. But what if you feel so strongly that your country is 'great' that, if such a time should come that your leaders do things that you disagree with... torture people... and the citizens of your country respond with patriotic apathy? Then you have reason to be ashamed of your government and fellow citizens. Just asking. I'm assuming that some one would disagree with torturing people. Quote
jbg Posted October 25, 2008 Author Report Posted October 25, 2008 Not if they blindly support their leaders. I have a button that says "proud to be American, ashamed of my government." That, AW, I can live with even if I don't agree with you on the "ashamed" part. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
jbg Posted October 25, 2008 Author Report Posted October 25, 2008 But what if you feel so strongly that your country is 'great' that, if such a time should come that your leaders do things that you disagree with... torture people... and the citizens of your country respond with patriotic apathy? Then you have reason to be ashamed of your government and fellow citizens. Just asking.I'm assuming that some one would disagree with torturing people. I disagree with torture. I pose you the following question, though. How gentle was/is the Taliban with their opponents? I suspect Gitmo is a walk in the park compared to what goes on in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Even if the impossible stories of Korans being flushed down toilets at Gitmo were true, how does that compare to the fate of someone bringing a Bible into Saudi Arabia? And while we're at it, Canada and the U.S. welcome Muslim immigration. How would most Muslim countries receive a Christian or Jewish immigrant? With heads flying? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Kitch Posted October 26, 2008 Report Posted October 26, 2008 I disagree with torture. I pose you the following question, though. How gentle was/is the Taliban with their opponents?I suspect Gitmo is a walk in the park compared to what goes on in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Even if the impossible stories of Korans being flushed down toilets at Gitmo were true, how does that compare to the fate of someone bringing a Bible into Saudi Arabia? And while we're at it, Canada and the U.S. welcome Muslim immigration. How would most Muslim countries receive a Christian or Jewish immigrant? With heads flying? So patriotism is based on comparisons to other countries? It makes sense to be proud of some of the ways your own society works compared to other societies, but if your focus is on others who you perceive to be 'behind' you in some way, then you likely won't progress. Let me flip the question. What does it mean to be unpatriotic? Quote
jbg Posted October 26, 2008 Author Report Posted October 26, 2008 So patriotism is based on comparisons to other countries? It makes sense to be proud of some of the ways your own society works compared to other societies, but if your focus is on others who you perceive to be 'behind' you in some way, then you likely won't progress.The fact is that when Americans travel abroad, however much we enjoy the vacation we generally thank G-d wkere travelling on an American passport. Comparisons to other lands are highly relevant.Let me flip the question. What does it mean to be unpatriotic?Treating other countries and systems as being the moral equivalent of your own. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Oleg Bach Posted October 26, 2008 Report Posted October 26, 2008 The question should be, why does Canada not respect America anymore? Respect is the tranfere of power and mutual co-operation...seeing America has rendered itself powerless...they had better hope we respect them....and that hope maybe waining. WE hold the power at this point - even Conrad (the lord) - (keeper of the bread) stated . "America is in good hands" Sometimes the smaller younger brother has to take care of that big oaf --- older bigger brother - god knows that Mexico is useless as a sibling. Quote
Kitch Posted October 26, 2008 Report Posted October 26, 2008 The fact is that when Americans travel abroad, however much we enjoy the vacation we generally thank G-d wkere travelling on an American passport. Comparisons to other lands are highly relevant. Well, that's an assumption that the 350 million people in America, or at least those that travel, share your views about those other countries. But, as I said, I'm not trying to say that comparing America to other countries shouldn't leave you feeling proud (I don't know that it should either though). Again, how does America progress socially or otherwise if they're always using other countries as a standard of comparison? Does that imply a dependence on these countries? (I know the answer will be no, but I'd like to know why that's so). Treating other countries and systems as being the moral equivalent of your own. That's unpatriotic? Saying that another country is as good (or better) than your own? That seems limiting to me. What if another country does come up with a great idea. Are you going to shun it simply because America didn't come up with it itself? I'd also like to note the ridiculousness of us (everyone seems to do it) referring to Americans, or Canadians as a homogeneous group of people, or a single entity. It's like referring to a corporation as an entity. Legally it is, but it is composed of a group of people each with their own mind and different (even if only slightly) opinions. Quote
jbg Posted October 26, 2008 Author Report Posted October 26, 2008 Again, how does America progress socially or otherwise if they're always using other countries as a standard of comparison? Does that imply a dependence on these countries? (I know the answer will be no, but I'd like to know why that's so).That's unpatriotic? Saying that another country is as good (or better) than your own? That seems limiting to me. What if another country does come up with a great idea. Are you going to shun it simply because America didn't come up with it itself? That's not what I'm saying and you know it. But do you see a "brain drain" from the U.S. to any other country, at least on a scale of Europe to America during the late 1800's-early 1900's? Where are the American emigrants to China? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Kitch Posted October 27, 2008 Report Posted October 27, 2008 That's not what I'm saying and you know it. But do you see a "brain drain" from the U.S. to any other country, at least on a scale of Europe to America during the late 1800's-early 1900's? Where are the American emigrants to China? I know that's not what you're saying, you're giving me evidence that Americans are proud of being American... or living in America... if those are two different things to be proud of. I'm aware that people are immigrating to both America and Canada, implying that there are things to be proud of here, I suppose. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that we, or you or they, have no reason to be proud, I'm asking about the nature of patriotism vs. unpatriotism. According to what you said, and correct me if I'm wrong, to be patriotic is to be proud of the country that you live in because it is more desirable than others, for whatever reason (apparently so much so that one becomes emotional upon hearing the national anthem). And to be unpatriotic is to like something or everything about another country or to agree with something about another countries society. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 (edited) The question should be, why does Canada not respect America anymore? Respect is the tranfere of power and mutual co-operation...seeing America has rendered itself powerless...they had better hope we respect them....and that hope maybe waining. WE hold the power at this point - even Conrad (the lord) - (keeper of the bread) stated . "America is in good hands" Sometimes the smaller younger brother has to take care of that big oaf --- older bigger brother - god knows that Mexico is useless as a sibling. Actually, Mexicans are more important to the USA than Canadians. You must mean that little 'bro. Edited October 28, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
jbg Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 And to be unpatriotic is to like something or everything about another country or to agree with something about another countries society.No. It's to favor policies that dismantle what made our respective countries' great. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Hcheh Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 Where did you get the idea that Canadians are not proud of Vimy Ridge and Juno Beach? Is this the joke question of the year? Only 36% can identify any type of association with Vimy Ridge. In Quebec they faired much worse. http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=1474 Juno Beach failed the popularity test also. "Sadly, today, not a lot of young Canadians remember or even know what Juno Beach is. Perhaps only their grandfathers and grandmothers would know how important Canada’s role was in World War II. It is important for all of us to remember, especially now. By looking at Juno Beach as an example, we can remember how hard we Canadians tried to fight for and restore peace in our world." http://www.histori.ca/fairs/studentProject...omcat1?id=16009 Canada really does not have any war in which it fought to protect the actually country, to claim some sort of identity. The closest Canada could have came to this one IMV, was participating in the Iraq war which Canada declined. Both countries experienced loss of its citizens relating to '999' terrorist attack. Canada participating in Afghanistan is a noble effort, but is not on the same level as the direct '999' attack had on America, affecting both Americans and Canadians pertaining to loss of life. That is just sad.. Horrendous.. It brings tears to my eyes whenever I read about Vimy, Juno beach, the Dieppe Raid AS WELL AS the Italian Campaign during WW2 with the battle of Ortona, the Gothic Line and Hitler's line with his elite paratroopers. How could anybody not respect what those soldiers have done for us? Quote
jbg Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 That is just sad.. Horrendous.. It brings tears to my eyes whenever I read about Vimy, Juno beach, the Dieppe Raid AS WELL AS the Italian Campaign during WW2 with the battle of Ortona, the Gothic Line and Hitler's line with his elite paratroopers. How could anybody not respect what those soldiers have done for us? When people don't know about something they don't respect it. When history is not taught, but is replaced in courses on "cultural sensitivity" and the spending is on "official bi-lingualism" (in parts of the country that speak only Canadian, and not in French-speaking areas) what do you expect? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Kitch Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 No. It's to favor policies that dismantle what made our respective countries' great. But what if the policies created a long time ago, that made one's country great, aren't what's best for one's country today? Society has changed. Perhaps it's best to re-evaluate some of the 'truths held to be self evident', no? Quote
White Doors Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 But what if the policies created a long time ago, that made one's country great, aren't what's best for one's country today? Society has changed. Perhaps it's best to re-evaluate some of the 'truths held to be self evident', no? Hmm... So what about the preamble of the US Constitution would you like to change? Quote Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.~blueblood~
jbg Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Posted October 28, 2008 Hmm... So what about the preamble of the US Constitution would you like to change?That's from the Declaration of Independence (link to text), which many Canadians might indeed have difficulty with. When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident , that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. (emphasis supplied) Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Kitch Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 which many Canadians might indeed have difficulty with. Well that's not fair. I don't believe that you REALLY think that Canadians are stupid, or that we don't understand America. (In case you're correcting me, I wasn't quoting the thing... as indicated by the ' instead of "... and I wasn't referencing anything. Just paraphrasing a well known American sentence). Anyway, White Doors... I don't know bud. I don't claim to have any answers for America's problems, I just asked a question. It doesn't hurt to re-examine things that you hold to be true every once in a while. I mean, you wouldn't turn the furnace on all year if you lived in New York, would you? When the weather changes, you have to make a decision... and it's likely not the same decision you made a few months ago. But, maybe I'm wrong and the climate (read: economy or culture or society) where you live never changes. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 The face of America is changing before our very eyes. No one imagined that they in their life time would witness the utter collapse of the American empire - No one would have imagined that Canadians would suffer the internal displacement of the founding population with a wave of mindless immigration that only makes the Trotskyites at the UN smile with glee. I don't get it - why the hell did we destroy our nation and our prosperity? Lunitics from the left did this as a collective conspiratorial mass while the rich right looked on in amusement and assumed they were untouchables - LOOK now as the markets crash globally - apparently the rich were not untouchables and should have looked out for the average Canadian and American..now they will pay the price of selfish bad managment and neglect of their own tribe. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 Well that's not fair. I don't believe that you REALLY think that Canadians are stupid, or that we don't understand America. (In case you're correcting me, I wasn't quoting the thing... as indicated by the ' instead of "... and I wasn't referencing anything. Just paraphrasing a well known American sentence). OK...but it is well known for a reason, no? America has been very successful, with ups and downs along the way, since those words were penned. Today's events are in keeping with that fine tradition. As for the quote, no biggee, since most Americans wouldn't know the distinction either. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Topaz Posted October 28, 2008 Report Posted October 28, 2008 I believe that the US started to slide down hill when JF Kennedy was murdered by their own people just like they did with King and Bobby Kennedy. Every president since then except for Reagan and Carter, have take the country closer the the bottom of the barrel and leave it to GW to hit the bottom!! I remember the US as a country with respectability and now its known for torturing, invading and a war mongering country. I hope the next president can, not turn the page, but start a new book and get the US back were it once was. Quote
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