Why Doesn't the US Respect Canada More?

[Kitch]

So its up to the USofA to respect us more, for the sake of the English-speaking world.

And because they don't its Canada's fault.

If wishes were horses beggars would ride.

What would it mean for the U.S. to respect us more? Why do we even feel a need for this?

Besides the fact that it's ridiculous to want the respect of a country when a country is nothing more than a geographical area. A lot of Americans, I'm confident, do respect "us"... our piece of land. I'm sure that there are a lot of people that respect a few Canadian people too.

I think the point of this thread is to advocate for Canada having a stronger international voice. I want to ask, sincerely, why?

[jbg]

What would it mean for the U.S. to respect us more? Why do we even feel a need for this?

**************

I think the point of this thread is to advocate for Canada having a stronger international voice. I want to ask, sincerely, why?

In all sincerity more Americans should at least know something about their neighbor and ally.

[Kitch]

In all sincerity more Americans should at least know something about their neighbor and ally.

I don't know that it's just Americans that don't know much about us though. My fiance's brother travelled Europe for three months, people that I met in teacher's college taught abroad in MANY different countries... and not many people know much about Canada. (I, without any intent on patronizing or insulting Americans, don't think a lot of Americans know much about any other countries).

Maybe this is a problem, maybe it's not. Why would it be a problem though? (For Canada... it's a problem if Americans don't know much about the world when decisions made in America have an impact globally).

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't know that it's just Americans that don't know much about us though. My fiance's brother travelled Europe for three months, people that I met in teacher's college taught abroad in MANY different countries... and not many people know much about Canada. (I, without any intent on patronizing or insulting Americans, don't think a lot of Americans know much about any other countries).

Really? Not even the ones who "visit" Iraq? Or Afghanistan? Or Italy? Or Japan? Or Germany? Or Dubai? Or Korea? Or Israel? Or.....

Maybe this is a problem, maybe it's not. Why would it be a problem though? (For Canada... it's a problem if Americans don't know much about the world when decisions made in America have an impact globally).

Correct...it is a problem for Canada if it chooses to make it one. Decisions made by Canada have far less of an impact.

Edited November 1, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Smallc]

Correct...it is a problem for Canada if it chooses to make it one. Decisions made by Canada have far less of an impact.

And yet your here, talking about them.

[Kitch]

Really? Not even the ones who "visit" Iraq? Or Afghanistan? Or Italy? Or Japan? Or Germany? Or Dubai? Or Korea? Or Israel? Or.....

Correct...it is a problem for Canada if it chooses to make it one. Decisions made by Canada have far less of an impact.

Well, visiting a place doesn't necessarily translate into an understanding of the people in that country. But, I'm sure that there are a lot of Americans that do understand the way other societies work. I'm just saying that there are probably a lot that don't.

And if that's a shot at Canada... the fact that our decisions have little impact on others... I, for one, don't care. So long as the decisions made here benefit the people here and don't hurt people elsewhere.

[bush_cheney2004]

Well, visiting a place doesn't necessarily translate into an understanding of the people in that country. But, I'm sure that there are a lot of Americans that do understand the way other societies work. I'm just saying that there are probably a lot that don't.

This is true of any nation.....even (gulp)...Canada. So what?

And if that's a shot at Canada... the fact that our decisions have little impact on others... I, for one, don't care. So long as the decisions made here benefit the people here and don't hurt people elsewhere.

Really? Does elsewhere include Korea, or Cyprus, or Serbia, or Haiti, or East Timor, or Chile, or Bosnia, or Rwanda, or Peru, or Iraq, or Afghanistan?

[bush_cheney2004]

And yet your here, talking about them.

Yes...if only to remind you that the impact is not zero or without consequences. You can't hide behind the larger American footprint.

[Kitch]

This is true of any nation.....even (gulp)...Canada. So what?

Ya, I'm sure it does include a lot of Canadians. I really don't think that the number of uninformed Canadians is near the number of uninformed Americans though. And really, as you said, what happens here doesn't usually impact people around the world... so what does it matter? But it DOES matter how informed Americans are.

Please don't kid yourself... you can take shots at 'Canada' and I'll be the last to defend it as I have hard time identifying with what it means, in the typical sense, to be patriotic.

Really? Does elsewhere include Korea, or Cyprus, or Serbia, or Haiti, or East Timor, or Chile, or Bosnia, or Rwanda, or Peru, or Iraq, or Afghanistan?

It does include those places. I didn't say Canada hasn't harmed people elsewhere. I said so long as our decisions don't then I'm happy.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ya, I'm sure it does include a lot of Canadians. I really don't think that the number of uninformed Canadians is near the number of uninformed Americans though. And really, as you said, what happens here doesn't usually impact people around the world... so what does it matter? But it DOES matter how informed Americans are.

Why? Because your impotence can only lead to more self adjudicated victimhood? Canadian bombs and artillery shells really don't know the difference. (Obviously there are more Americans than Canadians...informed or not. There is a reason for this.)

Please don't kid yourself... you can take shots at 'Canada' and I'll be the last to defend it as I have hard time identifying with what it means, in the typical sense, to be patriotic.

Far from that...I embrace the role of America pursuing self interests in geo-political conflict. I have cited as much many times in this forum. Why some Canadians refuse to accept responsibility for doing the same is curious indeed, choosing to hide behind the American footprint.

It does include those places. I didn't say Canada hasn't harmed people elsewhere. I said so long as our decisions don't then I'm happy.

But your decisions do...and continue to do so, even if you think Canadians are better informed. PM Harper and the CPC were returned to power. The "stupid" Americans may actually choose a different direction.

Edited November 1, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[jbg]

I don't know that it's just Americans that don't know much about us though. My fiance's brother travelled Europe for three months, people that I met in teacher's college taught abroad in MANY different countries... and not many people know much about Canada.

The difference is that geography and linguistic and cultural similarities create a relationship between two neighboring nations that is unique in this world. THr closest comparable relationship, between Australia and New Zealand, involves two countries with similar history and language separated by water.

South America contains a numbe of bordering states with the same language, but historical and cultural differences swamp the similarities, say,between Peru and Ecuador, or Ecuador and Columbia.

[bush_cheney2004]

The difference is that geography and linguistic and cultural similarities create a relationship between two neighboring nations that is unique in this world. THr closest comparable relationship, between Australia and New Zealand, involves two countries with similar history and language separated by water.

It doesn't always work that way....as in the case of North and South Korea, for example. From a human perspective, Mexico influences America more than Canada IMHO.

[Kitch]

It doesn't always work that way....as in the case of North and South Korea, for example. From a human perspective, Mexico influences America more than Canada IMHO.

No, not always, but I think he's (she's?) giving reason for people perceiving Canada as indistinguishable from the U.S. He's not trying to describe a world wide truth.

[Kitch]

Why? Because your impotence can only lead to more self adjudicated victimhood? Canadian bombs and artillery shells really don't know the difference. (Obviously there are more Americans than Canadians...informed or not. There is a reason for this.)

Far from that...I embrace the role of America pursuing self interests in geo-political conflict. I have cited as much many times in this forum. Why some Canadians refuse to accept responsibility for doing the same is curious indeed, choosing to hide behind the American footprint.

But your decisions do...and continue to do so, even if you think Canadians are better informed. PM Harper and the CPC were returned to power. The "stupid" Americans may actually choose a different direction.

Dude, don't get me wrong. I am in no way claiming that 'Canada' is less guilty than the 'U.S.' for harming people around the world. Canada manufactured a lot of the weapons that the U.S. used in the Vietnam war! Things have been done in my name that I am VERY ashamed of. But that's part of what leads me to my reluctance to feel any sort of 'national pride'. Not because I'm ashamed... but because I wasn't part of any such decisions nor do I agree with them, but I'm still included in this heterogeneous group called "Canadian".

However, when I say that decisions made in either country have unequal consequences for people around the world, I'm not necessarily talking about bombs! I don't know why you automatically assumed that.

When you say we refuse to accept responsibility for "this", what exactly do you mean? That we benefit from the U.S. doing what they do to serve self interest because our interests are similar? Well, I don't know what to say about that... assuming this is what you meant. But how exactly do we benefit from the pursuit of American self interests in geopolitical conflict? Do European countries benefit from this as well? How about Asian?

Dude, I don't know what to tell you. It seems that we're engaged in a competition to see who's better or more responsible for their actions... and when I say "their", please understand how I perceive the idea of a 'nation'. I'm not personally responsible for decisions that are made by people who are in control of the people that share the same geographical space that I live in. Can I be considered responsible for such decisions made by a government that I didn't vote for? Sure. I don't feel that way, but I can't disagree with people who make this assertion; that's the nature of democracy.

All that I'm saying is that because Canada is smaller (in population... reason being that it's so damn cold up here and there aren't a lot of places that many people want to live because of the climate) and less powerful, there are fewer decisions made here that affect the rest of the world. Harper being elected has less impact than the new American president will have... because both will make decisions other than to bomb people.

[bush_cheney2004]

Dude, don't get me wrong. I am in no way claiming that 'Canada' is less guilty than the 'U.S.' for harming people around the world.

I don't care about time wasted on guilt....it is irrelevant. The curiosity is the consistent references to American domestic / foreign policy as explanations for Canada's decisions/actions, not only in this forum, but for Canadian media in general. Last night I was watching a C-SPAN tape of a U.K. defense minister briefing. The difference was startling, with very few references to the USA or Americans wrt to their Afghanistan / Iraq missions and commitments. They own their decisions completely, good or bad, without whining about "Bush". It's a totally different mind set compared to the lesser god that is Canada.

However, when I say that decisions made in either country have unequal consequences for people around the world, I'm not necessarily talking about bombs! I don't know why you automatically assumed that.

Again, by defintion, the USA has ten times the impact just from the 'git go, and because of historical circumstances, a lot more than that. This does not change the underlying nature of such decisions (or lack thereof) from the perspective of national policies.

When you say we refuse to accept responsibility for "this", what exactly do you mean? That we benefit from the U.S. doing what they do to serve self interest because our interests are similar? Well, I don't know what to say about that... assuming this is what you meant. But how exactly do we benefit from the pursuit of American self interests in geopolitical conflict? Do European countries benefit from this as well? How about Asian?

There are always winners and losers from American policies, but it is not by chance. The oft used word "West" has become a code word for this sphere of influence and beneficiaries, even though it is more complex than that. Apologists for Canada's enemies invoke this term as the target of their judgements and criticisms, even as they live and thrive in same. Some will claim that Canada would have no enemies were it not for the USA, which leads right back to choices made by Canada.

Dude, I don't know what to tell you. It seems that we're engaged in a competition to see who's better or more responsible for their actions... and when I say "their", please understand how I perceive the idea of a 'nation'. I'm not personally responsible for decisions that are made by people who are in control of the people that share the same geographical space that I live in. Can I be considered responsible for such decisions made by a government that I didn't vote for? Sure. I don't feel that way, but I can't disagree with people who make this assertion; that's the nature of democracy.

Again....I don't care about "better". Nation states have interests...my constant references to such things when it comes to Canada has nothing to do with guilt and everything to do with reality. Yet it is often perceived as "there BC goes slamming Canada again". Individual Americans have no more control over their government than you do yours, but apparently they are fair game for all manner of such criticism. In the end, America is not disliked for pursuing her interests, but for doing it better than anybody else.

All that I'm saying is that because Canada is smaller (in population... reason being that it's so damn cold up here and there aren't a lot of places that many people want to live because of the climate) and less powerful, there are fewer decisions made here that affect the rest of the world. Harper being elected has less impact than the new American president will have... because both will make decisions other than to bomb people.

Does this mean you are backing off the "less informed" mantra...because the "more informed" Canadians just made a choice for Harper-Bush (again)? (It's cold in Russia too, but people don't leave just because of the weather.)

All that I'm saying is to own the decisions that Canada does make, regardless of their impact. Americans do not need Canada as a foil to help define themselves.

[Kitch]

I don't care about time wasted on guilt....it is irrelevant. The curiosity is the consistent references to American domestic / foreign policy as explanations for Canada's decisions/actions, not only in this forum, but for Canadian media in general. Last night I was watching a C-SPAN tape of a U.K. defense minister briefing. The difference was startling, with very few references to the USA or Americans wrt to their Afghanistan / Iraq missions and commitments. They own their decisions completely, good or bad, without whining about "Bush". It's a totally different mind set compared to the lesser god that is Canada.

Again, by defintion, the USA has ten times the impact just from the 'git go, and because of historical circumstances, a lot more than that. This does not change the underlying nature of such decisions (or lack thereof) from the perspective of national policies.

There are always winners and losers from American policies, but it is not by chance. The oft used word "West" has become a code word for this sphere of influence and beneficiaries, even though it is more complex than that. Apologists for Canada's enemies invoke this term as the target of their judgements and criticisms, even as they live and thrive in same. Some will claim that Canada would have no enemies were it not for the USA, which leads right back to choices made by Canada.

Again....I don't care about "better". Nation states have interests...my constant references to such things when it comes to Canada has nothing to do with guilt and everything to do with reality. Yet it is often perceived as "there BC goes slamming Canada again". Individual Americans have no more control over their government than you do yours, but apparently they are fair game for all manner of such criticism. In the end, America is not disliked for pursuing her interests, but for doing it better than anybody else.

Does this mean you are backing off the "less informed" mantra...because the "more informed" Canadians just made a choice for Harper-Bush (again)? (It's cold in Russia too, but people don't leave just because of the weather.)

All that I'm saying is to own the decisions that Canada does make, regardless of their impact. Americans do not need Canada as a foil to help define themselves.

You're going way deeper into this than I ever intended. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're accusing... maybe not JUST me, but me included... of claiming no responsibility for 'Canadian' decisions but asserting that Americans ARE responsible for 'American' decisions.

That may very well be the approach of some Canadians, but certainly not me. I will go about my business talking about 'America' and its imperialistic ways in the middle east, South America, and wherever else 'they've' been involved. Perhaps I should change the language I use, but I don't think that the average American is responsible for these things. I (intend to) apply the same logic to everyone that I apply to myself.

Beyond that I'm having a hard time understanding your posts. Not because they're complicated, but because I can't figure out why you're going down those roads. I think we're on different pages... maybe even different books.

And, the notion that more Canadians are informed than Americans has nothing to do with the election of Harper. I'm referring to the level that people are 'informed' about the world outside of our own.

Take a look at this and tell me what you think:

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...ficial%26sa%3DN

[bush_cheney2004]

That may very well be the approach of some Canadians, but certainly not me. I will go about my business talking about 'America' and its imperialistic ways in the middle east, South America, and wherever else 'they've' been involved. Perhaps I should change the language I use, but I don't think that the average American is responsible for these things. I (intend to) apply the same logic to everyone that I apply to myself.

That's fine, but does not address the larger question related to this thread. Many Americans have the perception that Canada won't step up and own their actions and experiences without constant references to the United States. It's a malaise born of history and attitude.....self inflicted.

Beyond that I'm having a hard time understanding your posts. Not because they're complicated, but because I can't figure out why you're going down those roads. I think we're on different pages... maybe even different books.

Same book....different chapter and ending.

And, the notion that more Canadians are informed than Americans has nothing to do with the election of Harper. I'm referring to the level that people are 'informed' about the world outside of our own.

This is a common refrain....but discounts not only the experiences of millions of veterans, but many other sectors of the US/global economy. Immigrants to America (far more than in Canada), would also take exception to your broad brush.

Take a look at this and tell me what you think:

No big deal.....that's how all the planets look in my telescopes.

[Smallc]

That's fine, but does not address the larger question related to this thread. Many Americans have the perception that Canada won't step up and own their actions and experiences without constant references to the United States.

Many Americans would be wrong.

[bush_cheney2004]

Many Americans would be wrong.

One would hope so, but there is evidence otherwise. Will the real Canada please stand up?

[Smallc]

One would hope so, but there is evidence otherwise. Will the real Canada please stand up?

Do you expect us to not talk about you, when we are right next door. Many things that we take part in do in fact involve you, and references to your country are almost impossible to avoid. That does not mean that we're trying to pass off responsibility to you, no matter what you might think.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you expect us to not talk about you, when we are right next door. Many things that we take part in do in fact involve you, and references to your country are almost impossible to avoid.

Talk all you wish.....but it is a poor substitute for action.

[Smallc]

Talk all you wish.....but it is a poor substitute for action.

It doesn't really matter whether I show you action or not, because what you think of Canada and what Canada does is actually quite irrelevant.

Edited November 2, 2008 by Smallc

[bush_cheney2004]

It doesn't really matter whether I show you action or not, because what you think of Canada and what Canada does is actually quite irrelevant.

You don't need to show me anything....do it and own it....sans whining about the American impact as an excuse for not doing so.

[Smallc]

do it and own it

We do, you just don't seem to realize it.

[bush_cheney2004]

We do, you just don't seem to realize it.

Great...then I can look forward to bold statements about Canada's role in the world regardless of the Americans and their policies. No more whining about poodles or paralysis in Ottawa.

Looks like Rwanda is backsliding....this time don't let General Dallaire down.