9/11

[Charles Anthony]

The missing $2.3 trillion? That thing?

Here's the actual speech where Rumsfeld mentions the $2.3 trillion:

http://www.defenselink.mil/speeches/2001/s...910-secdef.html

--SNIP!!!--

What does it matter??? You are referring to the U.S. Department of Defense website for their version of the transcript. Without a doubt, they must certainly be unbiased.

If the U.S. Department of Defense says so, it must be true!

"Everyone has a horrible fantasy that makes the actual horror seem (to him) worth putting up with."

- Joseph Sobran

[PolyNewbie]

CanadianBlue:Are you kidding, I'm looking at getting into Law School depending on what I do if I get into university, and from what I've seen its no cakewalk.

You are going to have to becomne a very good reader to be a lawyer and that takes practise. Its kind of ironic that you callled me "son" at some point in these threads. You certainly have the arrogance to be a lawyer.

Lawyers have to digest about 300 - 400 pages of reading in one night. You should read a few books on this topic and other topics that you post about to get practise reading and to post based on knowledge rather than your opinion on how you think things should be.

[PolyNewbie]

Charles Anthony:What does it matter??? You are referring to the U.S. Department of Defense website for their version of the transcript. Without a doubt, they must certainly be unbiased.

If the U.S. Department of Defense says so, it must be true!

I saw Rumsfeld make the announcement on Sept 10 on TV news. When I saw the attacks I thought thats why they were doing them - distract everyone from the stolen 2.3 trillion dollars. 2.3 trillion dollars just doesn't dissapear. Obviously they stole it.

kimmy:He says that they can't track those transactions because of outdated record keeping technology.

Thats a stupid excuse. Thats like saying "I can't find my TV in my house. I lost it somewhere" or "I can't find my car in my driveway". A trillion dollars is probably enough to stack $100.00 bills from here to Jupiter. No one can lose that kind of money through transactions and old poorly connected computers. You would have to be a retard to believe that.

[PolyNewbie]

Black Dog :Does it matter? Is there any evidence you would accept?

(re number of engineers that support the official version)

Of course it matters, you guys are always talking about the huge numbers of engineers that support the official version so when there isn't a huge number of engineers that actually support the official version it shows that you have no evidence at all to support your beliefs.

[Jenna]

Every village needs it's idiot's. Personally I think you're one of Polynewbies multiple personalities, however that's just me. It seems like most conspiracy nuts like Lyndon Larouche, Ernst Zundel, Paul Fromm, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, and Pol Pot. Each one has some paranoia about a certain group of people. It's nothing new.

Which is why the 9/11 conspiracy theories are so popular with people on the radical ends of both spectrum. The vast majority of nazis and neo-fascists believe that the official version isn't correct and blame the Jews, on the radical left people blame the corporations and the banks. The people who push these theories are radical, and on the extremes of the political spectrum.

And for christ sake, try making your posts a bit more readable, its like some retarded chimpanzee got a hold of a computer.

reported

haha.

high five, Catchme.

[Black Dog]

Of course it matters, you guys are always talking about the huge numbers of engineers that support the official version so when there isn't a huge number of engineers that actually support the official version it shows that you have no evidence at all to support your beliefs.

There's almost 80 pages on this thread alone: in those and in others, numerous experts have been produiced by others and dismissed by you for some crackpot reason or another. When you're not dismissing experts, you blow right by the evidence given (see the Mark Bingham example above) and you refuse to address arguments that undermine your p.o.v (your ducking of kimmy's questions on the "Osama E" video earlier in this thread was a veritable clinic of slimy evasion). Why, even above you can't answer a simple question:

BD: Is there any evidence you would accept?

PN: Haw! There is no evidence! Lol! Pwned!!!11

Again: if we produced signed statements by 100, 1,000 or one million engineers stating that the probable cause of the WTC collapse was global collapse brought about by the weakening of the structure as a result of the plane impacts and subsequent fires (and not, say ,a nuclear fucking bomb), you wouldn't believe it anyway. The beauty of a conspiracy theory like yours is that it's totally insulated from any evidence. It's a closed system in which all conclusions are foregone and, indeed, any evidence against the conspiracy can be rturne dtyo evidence of the conspiracy simply with a wave of your magic wand and the assertion that the person presenting the evidenc eis part of the conspiracy. So really I have to wonder why you pretend to be interested in debating this subject when you're not actually open to any other points of view (since any evidence that can be produced to counter your point of view can simply be dismissed as part of the conspiracy). Basically, you're asking us to treat your arguments as logical when they are fundamentally illogical.

[kimmy]

kimmy:He says that they can't track those transactions because of outdated record keeping technology.

Thats a stupid excuse. Thats like saying "I can't find my TV in my house. I lost it somewhere" or "I can't find my car in my driveway". A trillion dollars is probably enough to stack $100.00 bills from here to Jupiter. No one can lose that kind of money through transactions and old poorly connected computers. You would have to be a retard to believe that.

No, it's like saying I used to have $1000, and now instead of $1000 I have a bunch of clothes and shoes and computer gear. I don't have the receipts anywhere, and I didn't record how I spent the money. In short, I have $1000 of transactions that I can't account for.

OMG, was I robbed? Was the money embezzled from me? Or lost? Or did I just buy $1000 of stuff and fail to do proper book-keeping? The fact that I have all this stuff lying around seems to suggest that I spent the money and just didn't record how I spent it.

Just as the fact that the Department of Defense has trillions of dollars worth of stuff lying around seems to suggest that they spent the money rather than losing it. $2.3 trillion would have been every penny of the Defense budget from the time Bush took office right up to September 10, 2001 PLUS every penny of the Defense budget of Clinton's whole second term. Could every penny of the Defense budget for 5 straight years have been stolen? All the stuff they bought during that span of time proves it wasn't.

You still haven't addressed the other two points I raised about the $2.3 trillion as a motive:

(1) if you've got a massive operation planned to cover something up, why would you talk about this thing you want to cover up in a speech the day before your big cover-up is set into motion? How does that make any sense?

(2) you keep talking about how bankers can create money at will, and you keep talking about how 9/11 was planned by the banking oligarchy. Well, if it was all planned by bankers, why would the bankers even bother stealing money when they can create it at will? How does that make any sense?

Whatever else you believe, at least admit that the supposed "$2.3 trillion" is a ridiculous motive.

-k

[Drea]

"Fundamentally Illogical"...????

from the Portland Independent Media

trenchant quote: "Between August 26 and September 11, 2001, a group of speculators, identified by the American Securities and Exchange Commission as Israeli citizens, sold "short" a list of 38 stocks that could reasonably be expected to fall in value as a result of the pending attacks. These speculators operated out of the Toronto, Canada and Frankfurt, Germany, stock exchanges and their profits were specifically stated to be "in the millions of dollars."

... BD you are usually quite open to discusssion 'cept on this subject... what gives?

My hubby too refuses to really look at the "unofficial" evidence regarding the towers. He's with me on the "no plane hit the Pentagon" because he heard it first hand on the news that day -- a reporter standing near the Pentagon saying "Oh my God, a blackhawk helicopter just crashed!" Now if that reporter would have saw a jet airliner -- he would not have mistaken it for a helicopter.

[Riverwind]

"Between August 26 and September 11, 2001, a group of speculators, identified by the American Securities and Exchange Commission as Israeli citizens, sold "short" a list of 38 stocks that could reasonably be expected to fall in value as a result of the pending attacks.

Stocks are shorted all of the time. The amount of shorts on key stocks were statistically insignificant and, in many cases, there were larger short positions open on the same stocks at other times of the year. Furthermore, American Airlines had just released bad financial data so the fact that short positions increased on 9/10 is not suprising.

This is yet another example of the fundementally irrational nature of truthie arguments. The financial transactions prior to 9/11 are not unusual as far as anyone familar with markets is concerned yet truthies jump on normal random variations and try to claim it is 'proof' of something sinister. Truthies are like someoen who stares at white noise on a TV, sees a face and then claims that is evidence that there is a ghost in the TV.

[Black Dog]

... BD you are usually quite open to discusssion 'cept on this subject... what gives?

Given the number of posts I've made in this thread and other 9-11 threads, I think it is fair to say I am open to discussing the subject. I am, however, no longer interested in discussing this with PN who is, as I pointed out, not arguing in good faith. In case you haven't noticed, "discussions" with PN tend to look a little something like this.

[GostHacked]

From what I understand is the 2.3 trillion was for the fiscal year of 1999 to 2000. Rumsfeld wanted to crack down on bad accounting practices. He said the 2.3 equals about 25% of the Pentagons budget for that year.

Hammer - 1000 dollars

Toilet seat - 5000 dollars

Kleenex - 100 dollars

New military? Priceless

a trillion is a million million dollars. You can buy alot of stuff with 2.3 trillion. Those who are not recording the transactions should have been held accountable. This is no chump change. I would even guess Bill Gates considers that a large sum of money ... anyways. Money goes unnacounted for all the time in the US. Would you not want to punish those who cannot account for everything?

Just seems like a lot of money for one year.

EDIT

Just to show you that this crap is still ongoing with the money..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6338341.stm

The former head of the US-led civilian administration in Iraq has defended his decision to send billions of dollars in cash to Baghdad in 2003 and 2004.

He added that there was no way of knowing whether the cash - totalling $9bn and flown in pallets from the US - would end up in enemy hands.

More money missing. Could this have been done better? OH HELL YES!! So much corruption.

[PolyNewbie]

Black Dog: I am, however, no longer interested in discussing this with PN who is, as I pointed out, not arguing in good faith.

You were not arguing before !! You have *no evidence* from which to base an arguemnt other than GW Bush and a gang of criminals have told you what happened. I've got more evidence that the Easter Bunny exists ! The official story is nothing more than a poorly concocted fantasy !

[Riverwind]

You were not arguing before !! You have *no evidence* from which to base an arguemnt other than GW Bush and a gang of criminals have told you what happened. I've got more evidence that the Easter Bunny exists ! The official story is nothing more than a poorly concocted fantasy !

It is customary to end a religious chant with the words 'Amen'.

[Black Dog]

QUOTE(PolyNewbie @ Feb 7 2007, 02:06 PM)

You were not arguing before !! You have *no evidence* from which to base an arguemnt other than GW Bush and a gang of criminals have told you what happened. I've got more evidence that the Easter Bunny exists ! The official story is nothing more than a poorly concocted fantasy !

i don't think anyone could have predicted this response. Oh. Wait.

BD: Is there any evidence you would accept?

PN: Haw! There is no evidence! Lol! Pwned!!!11

It is customary to end a religious chant with the words 'Amen'.

[PolyNewbie]

Show me ONE piece of evidence that supports the official version. Just ONE !!!!!

You are just angry with me because I expose the rediculousness of your position on this.

[White Doors]

You're the one using all the exclamation marks sonny.

[Black Dog]

Show me ONE piece of evidence that supports the official version. Just ONE !!!!!

That's not the issue. I'm asking you what evidence you would accept. I don't have the time right now (but I can, believe me) to go through this and the other 9-11 threads to dig up every time you responded to some citation or another with "oh, they depend on government contracts, that's not valid" or "oh that magazine is owned by Hearst, they're in on it!!" or some such, which leads me to wonder what your standard for credibility is. Based on some of the people you've cited as "experts", my guess would be that you're looking for people who have no actual knowledge of the subject of which they are speaking.

(A prime example for the "Greatest Crisis..." thread. Canadian Blue provides a list of some 50 people who contributed to the PM "9-11 myths debunked" article. Your response? "everyone (on the list) has something to gain by supporting the official version - from keeping their jobs to getting gov contracts.")

Oh and then there's the times you just breeze by the holes in your story (see: kimmy's posts on the Osama video, Mark Bingham's mom)...which I mentioned earlier, but you, uh, breezed by it.

You are just angry with me because I expose the rediculousness of your position on this.

No: I'm angry that you expect to be taken seriously, but can't figure out how to spell "ridiculous".

[GostHacked]

Polynewbie - Again, I ask you, please change your tactics. Rehashing the same ol' is NOT going to get you anymore support here. I have been watching this thread and will keep telling you to change your tactics to get more to see your point of view. But you have really offered nothing but rehashing of the same old. This thread is a broken record. Again I state that I agree with you, but from all the other perspectives here, you have not made headway one damn bit with this thread. Not one.

Not one of these posters here, in this thread, that support the official story, is buying anything you have to sell. Maybe the packaging is wrong, maybe the advertising is wrong, could also be the product is wrong. You are not convincing anyone. Even with your tactics (remember I am in the same camp as you) I cannot support things you say, for you offer nothing new.

What you need to do is make more connections. Bill Curtis who did the Power of Nightmares at least gives you alot of backstory for it all. He is pretty convicing that fearmongering is what the powers that be, do. So unless you start giving new information, I would suggest not posting to this thread anymore.

Why the hell do you think my other 9/11 thread is burried. I have nothing new really to offer to that thread. I am working on it though. Take your time to research things. People watch and use the MSM. Link MSM articles with the 'Alex Jones' type articles and then you can start convincing people of it.

Please dude, for all the truthies out there. Help us out man.

[PolyNewbie]

GhostHacked:Polynewbie - Again, I ask you, please change your tactics. Rehashing the same ol' is NOT going to get you anymore support here.

I will only stick with known fact - I will not venture into the realm of hypothesis. I dissagree with you about me being able to change opinions. Others seem to like my posts but these neocon fascists don't and I don't care. I am under no illusion that I can convert these people - I can only expose them as fools which really angers them. Anger is an early step in realizing truth.

I would accept evidenc ethat supported the neocon/ fascist point of view if there was some. I can't imagine why I wouldn't. The problem is that they have none.

Can anyone describe a sigle piece of evidence that supports the notion that 911 was perpetrated by Islamic terrorists ?

[Black Dog]

I will only stick with known fact - I will not venture into the realm of hypothesis.

But you have, dahling: for instance, you suggested the WTC towers were brought down by a nuclear device. That sounds pretty hypothetical to me.

I dissagree with you about me being able to change opinions. Others seem to like my posts but these neocon fascists don't and I don't care. I am under no illusion that I can convert these people - I can only expose them as fools which really angers them.

Yup. Calling people who disagree with you "neocon facists" is definitely the mark of a sober intellectual.

I would accept evidenc ethat supported the neocon/ fascist point of view if there was some. I can't imagine why I wouldn't. The problem is that they have none.

I can tell you why you wouldn't: because it would undermine your entire world view and likely cau eyou head to burst like an overripe watermelon. Which is why anytime brings up some evidence (like, again, Mark Bingham's mom's explanation of her son's odd mode of address) you ignore it or brush it off as "rediculous".

Can anyone describe a sigle piece of evidence that supports the notion that 911 was perpetrated by Islamic terrorists?

Yeah: the multiple airphone calls made from hijacked aircraft. QED.

[PolyNewbie]

Black Dog: But you have, dahling: for instance, you suggested the WTC towers were brought down by a nuclear device. That sounds pretty hypothetical to me.

I stated it as being a hypothesis that has supporting evidence.

Black Dog: Yup. Calling people who disagree with you "neocon facists" is definitely the mark of a sober intellectual.

Ok. They lie about WMD's, they are forming the North American Union with no voter input or say, they are bringing in the police state on this continent, militarizing the police, and building detention centers. Trillions of dollars are being stolen out of the public purse. The Canadian Military is now fully integrated into the US army. Their wars are our wars now. 911 is being lied about and a real unbiased investigation has never taken place (unless you consider Pentagon propogandists unbiased).

To stick up for this government means that you must be a neocon fascis who thinks they will benefit from all of this. You have to be able to see something is wrong if you can dress yourself in the morning. If you wanted to do some good and you honestly believe 911 was as how the gov says it is then why don't you spend time on some other thread ? Why do you so pationately defend what is obviously a corrupt government ?

What is the matter with you ? Do you think it should be illegal to question 911 ? Do you think you are doing yourself or anyone else a favour by defending a government who could easily defend itself if it had the truth on its side ?

Why are you so dedicated to defending the Bush administration ? Do you think its patriotic to defend the governemnt even when they are obviously criminals ?

[Black Dog]

I stated it as being a hypothesis that has supporting evidence.

So were you lying when you said: "I will only stick with known fact - I will not venture into the realm of hypothesis?"

Ok. They lie about WMD's, they are forming the North American Union with no voter input or say, they are bringing in the police state on this continent, militarizing the police, and building detention centers. Trillions of dollars are being stolen out of the public purse. The Canadian Military is now fully integrated into the US army. Their wars are our wars now. 911 is being lied about and a real unbiased investigation has never taken place (unless you consider Pentagon propogandists unbiased).

To stick up for this government means that you must be a neocon fascis who thinks they will benefit from all of this. You have to be able to see something is wrong if you can dress yourself in the morning. If you wanted to do some good and you honestly believe 911 was as how the gov says it is then why don't you spend time on some other thread ? Why do you so pationately defend what is obviously a corrupt government ?

What is the matter with you ? Do you think it should be illegal to question 911 ? Do you think you are doing yourself or anyone else a favour by defending a government who could easily defend itself if it had the truth on its side ?

Why are you so dedicated to defending the Bush administration ? Do you think its patriotic to defend the governemnt even when they are obviously criminals ?

Dubious allegations about government activities aside, accepting the official narratve of 9-11 is not the same thing as supporting the government. To equate the two is to engage the same manichean "us v.s them/with us/against us" dynamics the government uses to railroad people into supporting its endeavours. If you had a clue, you'd know that there's few posters on this board more critical of the Bush administration and less acceppting of "official" narratives than I. Simply because I don't buy your whacked-out, paranoid crap about secret Satan worshipping cabals running the world does not make me an apologist: it makes me sane.

Now then: how about those airphone calls?

[Canadian Blue]

Ok. They lie about WMD's, they are forming the North American Union with no voter input or say, they are bringing in the police state on this continent, militarizing the police, and building detention centers. Trillions of dollars are being stolen out of the public purse. The Canadian Military is now fully integrated into the US army. Their wars are our wars now. 911 is being lied about and a real unbiased investigation has never taken place (unless you consider Pentagon propogandists unbiased).

That's odd, considering I've been to CFLRS St Jean, CFB Borden, CFB Gagetown, CFB Kingston, and CFB Winnipeg, and haven't noticed the American's leading us. However I actually did have a British CO in Kingston.

To stick up for this government means that you must be a neocon fascis who thinks they will benefit from all of this.

No, it mean's I'm somewhat sane, and don't buy into everything a known fascist [Lyndon Larouche] spouts off. Last time I remember you wanted Larouche as president, didn't he say some nasty things about the Jews and Homosexuals.

What is the matter with you ? Do you think it should be illegal to question 911 ? Do you think you are doing yourself or anyone else a favour by defending a government who could easily defend itself if it had the truth on its side ?

You know how I can show we are not living in a police state, because their's people like you still around along with a bunch of 9/11 revisionist sites.

Why are you so dedicated to defending the Bush administration ? Do you think its patriotic to defend the governemnt even when they are obviously criminals ?

But what you're talking about is an enemy which has no face that we should all go after. This whole NWO thing is just a big hoax, wasn't that Pat Robertson's big thing.

I criticize my government, I just don't like to fall off the political spectrum into a pit of insanity.

What you need to do is make more connections. Bill Curtis who did the Power of Nightmares at least gives you alot of backstory for it all. He is pretty convicing that fearmongering is what the powers that be, do. So unless you start giving new information, I would suggest not posting to this thread anymore.

Why the hell do you think my other 9/11 thread is burried. I have nothing new really to offer to that thread. I am working on it though. Take your time to research things. People watch and use the MSM. Link MSM articles with the 'Alex Jones' type articles and then you can start convincing people of it.

What's so great about Alex Jones, did he drop out of clown college when he decided to pursue the truth about 9/11. Personally I'll go with what all of those civil enginners say, even though they apparently don't know anything about engineering according to truthies.

QUOTE

BD: Is there any evidence you would accept?

PN: Haw! There is no evidence! Lol! Pwned!!!11

Polynewbie are you a big World of Warcraft fan, isn't that what all of those types with no lives say.

I would accept evidenc ethat supported the neocon/ fascist point of view if there was some. I can't imagine why I wouldn't. The problem is that they have none.

I provided you with point's of view from the left which supported the official events.

Do you even know what a Neocon is Polynewbie?

[GostHacked]

Black Dog

Now then: how about those airphone calls?

Edit :

I guess some calls were made from in-plane phones, and some were from cell phones. I am not sure how valid the cell phone calls from the planes are. For what I know, is that the technology was limiting in the range, and could not get up to that height. 10,000 feet is about 3 KMs. Cell phones don't quite have that range today. So I think if anything, people were calling from an in-plane phone for those calls.

But it was after 9/11 (couple years it seems) that devices were installed in planes so people could make their own calls from their own cell phones. I don't get it for whatever reason.

Possible? Indeed

Probable? Personaly I think it is low.

I wonder if anyone tried to make calls back to those on the planes?

[jbg]

Of course it matters, you guys are always talking about the huge numbers of engineers that support the official version so when there isn't a huge number of engineers that actually support the official version it shows that you have no evidence at all to support your beliefs.

At last you and I find something to agree upon. I assume, from your screen name, you're a Led Zeppelin fan?