9/11

[PolyNewbie]

(about 10 min)

Explosions before collapses, firefighters talking, first hand witnessses, pulling the building, etc.

Anyone that tries to explain this away deserves to win the Golden Hockey Puck award.

[kimmy]

But ignore all this again, Bin Laden was responsible for it all. Anyone else see a problem with this? Honestly.

What? Are you saying that Osama Bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11 because one of his lieutenants planned the details of the operation?

As Al Qaeda leader, Bin Laden is certainly responsible. That's not to say that he did the planning of the mission. It is similar to saying, for example, that George W Bush is responsible for the invasion of Iraq, even though the planning and details were left to his staff.

Dimwits have been saying stuff like "how could have he have done 9/11, when he lives in a cave?" and similar idiotic remarks, but the claim has always been that it was an Al Qaeda operation, and the focus on Bin Laden in particular is

It's a simple enough concept. When people march around blaming George W Bush for killing Iraqi children, do you correct them by pointing out that Bush hasn't killed Iraqi children because he's in Washington and has never been to a combat zone in his life? Of course not. As Al Qaeda chief, Bin Laden bears responsibility and by his own words was involved in the genesis of the idea. Whether the details were carried out by him or by others in his organization is a matter of academic interest, but doesn't change anything.

-k

[DogOnPorch]

Anyone that tries to explain this away deserves to win the Golden Hockey Puck award.

He shoots!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5S0sVqMU51I (exposes 9-11 Truth)

He scores!!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I never broke my nose playing ice hockey; but eleven other guys did.

---Gordie Howe

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:Dimwits have been saying stuff like "how could have he have done 9/11, when he lives in a cave?"

The ex German Defence minister says 911 had to be the work of the government and that no NGO could accomplish what was done on 911. I guess he must be a dimwit and you could teach him a few things.

The "cave from Afhanstan" is an illustrative exaggeration that really is made to state the above.

No one could make Cheney give the stand down order or make those planes stay on the ground at Andrews or allow hijacked planes to fly around unescorted in the most protected airspace on the planet except the US governement.

[PolyNewbie]

sunsettommy: just see another example of your unwillingness to make a full rebuttal.

You seem to confuse speculation with fact. If any debunker site speculates anything you are going to take it as fact.

[kimmy]

Why do you keep calling SunsetTommy "kimmy"? Are you more confused than usual, or is this a new conspiracy theory you're promoting?

kimmy:Clearly, the means to perform the 9/11 attacks were easily within Osama's capability; he's astoundingly wealthy and has access to many willing recruits.

No way. He did not have the capability to get Cheney to give the stand down order for Pentagon defences (surface to air missiles)

That's an urban legend. There are no permanent air-defenses on site at the Pentagon. This article points out that mobile air defenses were deployed in Washington DC on Sept 11 2002, the one year anniversary of 9/11, and that

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/10/ar911.air.defense/

after two buildings had already been hit and the plane was 50 miles away from the Pentagon and techincally a UFO. This is congressional testimony by two witnesses.

50 miles by jetliner equates to less than 5 minutes of warning. Even if mobile anti-aircraft defenses were scrambled at that exact moment, they'd have had no time to get in place anyway.

He did not have the capability to prevent the White House from launching fighters from Andrews air force base to protect the White House & Penthouse Pentagon after two buildings had already been hit.

The US armed forces were not confused on that day. Excercises could have been called off after the second building was hit. Fighters could have been launched to intercept these planes that went off course just like they do in every other case. Planes that go off course are intercepted as a matter of policy.

Fighters needed explicit authorization to shoot down any planes, and as the Olbermann showed during his investigation of 9/11 audio from NORAD, they weren't given this authorization until too late. The recordings also reveal confusion over how many planes had been hijacked and what the fighters were actually allowed to do.

Bin Laden did not have the capability to have the authority to do these intercepts taken away from the armed forces and handed over to Dick Cheney a short time before 911.

uh-huh riiight

Also note that prior to 9/11, protocols concerning hijacked aircraft concerned situations such as hostages and planes being taken to other destinations; situations where it was assumed that hijackers wanted to survive. A suicide attack of this nature was outside the training and preparedness of anyone involved.

Bin Laden could not have planeted bombs inside the Pentagon and set them off 5 minutes before anything hit it. (See Seven Hours In September - written by a Colonel at the Pentagon.)

Barbara Honegger is not a Colonel. Her only connection with the military is that she works at the PR department at the Naval Postgraduate School. (which is in California, not Washington DC, if you were wondering.)

Her job is to write press-releases:

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=6904

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=27574

"By Barbara Honegger, Naval Postgraduate School Public Affairs"

"For related news, visit the Naval Postgraduate School Navy NewsStand page at www.news.navy.mil/local/nps "

Pentagon insider? She writes press releases for the "Naval NewsStand" web-page.

I guess she's a Colonel in the same sense that David Hawkins is a doctor of thermodynamics or James Fetzer is a "theoretical physicist".

kimmy: Sure, money does go missing from the Pentagon, and it could be (and undoubtably some of it is) used to fund all kinds of shenanigans

Three trillion dollars have gone missing from Pentagon with no investigation and a very laughable explanation from Donald Rumsfeld that consists of transaction losses due to old poorly connected old computers. Three trillion dollars is enough to build and fully equip 500 Nimitz class aircraft carriers or 3000 Los Angeles class nuclear submarines. Three trillion dollars is four times the entire yearly economic output of Canada.

Do you think they have a bag of 3 billion hammers buried somewhere that they paid $1000.00 each for ?

And once again you have no response to the fact that the $2.3 trillion dollars would represent every penny of the DoD budget for a whole decade, which in itself disproves the "truthie" interpretation of what the $2.3 trillion represents. Once again you use your "old computers" saw, which is not actually what Rumsfeld said. And once again you have no possible explanation why Rumsfeld would admit to this supposed heist the day before a massive operation to cover it up.

The "stolen money" and the "dead investigators" are just an attempt to weave a John Grisham mentality into the events of that day. Like, come on, even if the whole thing really *was* a huge conspiracy planned an executed by government operatives, they'd have a way better motive than this Hollywood style caper movie silliness.

Think about it logically. If there was really $2.3 trillion in stolen money, how would they really cover it up?

-reassign nosey accountants to other tasks

-assign really nosey accountants to other countries

-if an accountant still won't take no for an answer, arrange for him to turn up dead with a prostitute and an armful of bad heroin.

-NOT talk about the stolen money in speeches.

Like, come on. The whole "stolen money" narrative is complete nonsense from every angle. And given your beliefs about how banking operates, how is stealing money a motive anyway? In your world view, bankers stealing money would make about as much sense as eskimos stealing snow.

-k

[kimmy]

(about 10 min)

Explosions before collapses, firefighters talking, first hand witnessses, pulling the building, etc.

Anyone that tries to explain this away deserves to win the Golden Hockey Puck award.

It's a whole bunch of spur-of-the-moment speculation from people who are hearing loud noises and seeing dust and debris flying around. They don't actually know what's going on but are in panic mode and are already thinking "terrorists" and "bombs" because of the situation.

However, if you do put a lot of faith in the idea that there were actually explosions, I guess that would destroy your theory about a "mini-nuke" that "dustifies" the building as it's dropped.

-k

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy: That's an urban legend. There are no permanent air-defenses on site at the Pentagon. This article points out that mobile air defenses were deployed in Washington DC on Sept 11 2002, the one year anniversary of 9/11, and that

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/10/ar911.air.defense/

I guess the congressional testimony must be purgery then. I wonder how come it hasn't made the news.

Maybe the military is lying like they did with those Osama confession tapes or WMD's.

kimmy:50 miles by jetliner equates to less than 5 minutes of warning. Even if mobile anti-aircraft defenses were scrambled at that exact moment, they'd have had no time to get in place anyway.

Right - only surface to air missiles could be sent up to respond. See Stand Down Order Details

kimmy:Fighters needed explicit authorization to shoot down any planes, and as the Olbermann showed during his investigation of 9/11 audio from NORAD, they weren't given this authorization until too late. The recordings also reveal confusion over how many planes had been hijacked and what the fighters were actually allowed to do.

Which is why the authority was taken away from the military and handed to Cheney who had no military experience.

A suicide attack of this nature was outside the training and preparedness of anyone involved.

Wrong again. The attacks of Sept 11 had been rehearsed by the Pentagon for defensive purposes. This has been on mainstream. Both Pentagon and wtc attacks had been simulated/excercised.

kimmy:Barbara Honegger is not a Colonel. Her only connection with the military is that she works at the PR department at the Naval Postgraduate School. (which is in California, not Washington DC, if you were wondering.)

I believe she was a colonel. If she was there and could read the time I think it makes her qualified to say that explosions occured 5 minutes before a plane hit.

kimmy:

Think about it logically. If there was really $2.3 trillion in stolen money, how would they really cover it up?

-reassign nosey accountants to other tasks

-assign really nosey accountants to other countries

-if an accountant still won't take no for an answer, arrange for him to turn up dead with a prostitute and an armful of bad heroin.

-NOT talk about the stolen money in speeches.

kill off the investigators of the missing funds in the 911 attack, pay off the one surviving member and tell congress to go to hell when they asked where the money went.

kimmy:And once again you have no response to the fact that the $2.3 trillion dollars would represent every penny of the DoD budget for a whole decade, which in itself disproves the "truthie" interpretation of what the $2.3 trillion represents.

A fully equiped aircraft carrier costs 6 billion dollars, a nuclear submarine costs 1 billion dollars. Do the math.

kimmy:Why do you keep calling SunsetTommy "kimmy"?

You both sound so much alike - sorry.

[Canadian Blue]

Everybody stop replying, have you even met someone that just goes on such an irrational rant that you don't even bother replying.

Well, stop replying.

[PolyNewbie]

CanadianBlue:Everybody stop replying, have you even met someone that just goes on such an irrational rant that you don't even bother replying.

Well, stop replying.

I wish you would. Your constant nonsense about me being a NAZI and holocaust denier is getting old. You are apathetic excuse for a human being for using up such trash. I hear no one defending you. Go away.

[Black Dog]

Like Canadian Blue said: stop encouraging the mentally ill individual.

[Canadian Blue]

Just to add on, if you go to Polynewbies profile, there is an ignore option, hit it, and we won't be bothered with these conspiracy theories anymore and can get back to real debate instead of a thread made up of nothing but youtube videos and Alex Jones conspiracies.

[PolyNewbie]

didn't like that 10 minute 911 video I posted huh ? - the one showing all the explosions and firefighetrs talking and explosions from the basements , etc.

I guess ignoring me is your only choice because you cannot win the arguement with insults and lies.

get back to real debate

about what ? You would say the same stuff about any of the other truthies if they were as determined as I was. Then who would you debate ?

What have any of you guys debated about. You all believe 100 % of the official story is true. You all believe that was BinLaden in those confession tapes.

[kimmy]

kimmy: That's an urban legend. There are no permanent air-defenses on site at the Pentagon. This article points out that mobile air defenses were deployed in Washington DC on Sept 11 2002, the one year anniversary of 9/11, and that

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/10/ar911.air.defense/

I guess the congressional testimony must be purgery then. I wonder how come it hasn't made the news.

Maybe the military is lying like they did with those Osama confession tapes or WMD's.

I doubt it's perjury, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that the testimony doesn't refer to what the truthies say it refers to, because the "truth movement" never quotes anything accurately or in context.

Which is why the authority was taken away from the military and handed to Cheney who had no military experience.

The decision to fire on civilian aircraft is a decision with immense political ramifications (see KAL flight 007) and would not be undertaken without the highest authorization in any event.

A suicide attack of this nature was outside the training and preparedness of anyone involved.

Wrong again. The attacks of Sept 11 had been rehearsed by the Pentagon for defensive purposes. This has been on mainstream. Both Pentagon and wtc attacks had been simulated/excercised.

I recall reading that there had been memos written about the possibility of airliners being used as battering rams by somebody with either the DoD or the antiterrorism advisory group. If I recall correctly, these memos were not given serious consideration at the time. I've never heard any suggestion that there were simulations done, and certainly nothing to suggest that this ever became part of the training for field personnel such as fighter pilots or NORAD air control staff. If you can provide any information to the contrary, I'd love to hear it.

kimmy:Barbara Honegger is not a Colonel. Her only connection with the military is that she works at the PR department at the Naval Postgraduate School. (which is in California, not Washington DC, if you were wondering.)

I believe she was a colonel. If she was there and could read the time I think it makes her qualified to say that explosions occured 5 minutes before a plane hit.

Of course you believe she was a Colonel. That's exactly what I've come to expect from you.

However, back in the real world, she's not, and never has been. She did work for the Reagan administration briefly during the early 1980s. As a gender equity consultant. Not a Colonel. Not a Pentagon Insider, or Military Advisor, or Naval Historian, or any of the other stuff she's been called by truthies attempting to inflate her credentials to anything beyond "public relations desk".

Any evidence that she was actually at the Pentagon? As far as I can tell, her account is based on alleged interviews, not first-hand observation. Nothing about her background indicates that she'd have the knowledge of the Pentagon to guess at where the accounting group's offices were located or the access to assess that the accounting group's offices were attacked with bombs rather than the external impact, or the knowledge to distinguish between bombs and building fires and external impacts anyway.

kimmy:And once again you have no response to the fact that the $2.3 trillion dollars would represent every penny of the DoD budget for a whole decade, which in itself disproves the "truthie" interpretation of what the $2.3 trillion represents.

A fully equiped aircraft carrier costs 6 billion dollars, a nuclear submarine costs 1 billion dollars. Do the math.

What's that got to do with anything?

From the end of the Gulf War until 9/11, the Department of Defense budget averaged around $200 billion dollars per year. (I guess that's 30 aircraft carriers and 20 subs, if that's how you insist on measuring it.)

For the "stolen $2.3 trillion" theory to be true, Rumsfeld would have had to have stolen EVERY SINGLE PENNY of the Department of Defense budget from the end of the first Gulf War right up to Sept 11, AND A LOT MORE!

Do you not see a problem with this? Do you just not get why this doesn't make any sense?

-k

[GostHacked]

But ignore all this again, Bin Laden was responsible for it all. Anyone else see a problem with this? Honestly.

What? Are you saying that Osama Bin Laden was not responsible for 9/11 because one of his lieutenants planned the details of the operation?

As Al Qaeda leader, Bin Laden is certainly responsible. That's not to say that he did the planning of the mission. It is similar to saying, for example, that George W Bush is responsible for the invasion of Iraq, even though the planning and details were left to his staff.

ap

Sure fair enough. So why has the US been able to capture or kill many high level Al-Queada operatives, like Zarchawi in Iraq, and KSM a few years ago, but no matter they cannot nail Osama. WHY HAVE THEY NOT FOUND OSAMA ????

If the US and Canadian argiculture can trace the source and find ONE SINGLE INFECTED COW AMONG MILLIONS, but cannot find one man.

Dimwits have been saying stuff like "how could have he have done 9/11, when he lives in a cave?" and similar idiotic remarks, but the claim has always been that it was an Al Qaeda operation, and the focus on Bin Laden in particular is

It was an Al Queda operation from what they say, and the news media reported that Osama?AQ had something to do with it for it had tell tail signs of being Al Queada. But what are these tell tale signs, I mean right after the crashes it was OSAMA OSAMA OSAMA. How can there be telltae signs of AQ being behind this, when they had not attempted anything like this on this kind of scale.

Also if it was true terrorism, why not fly planes into malls, apartment buildings. Attacking civilian centers. WTC was as much a military asset as it was civilian. Why blow up embasies? Blow up the houses where those people live that work in embassies.

It's a simple enough concept. When people march around blaming George W Bush for killing Iraqi children, do you correct them by pointing out that Bush hasn't killed Iraqi children because he's in Washington and has never been to a combat zone in his life? Of course not. As Al Qaeda chief, Bin Laden bears responsibility and by his own words was involved in the genesis of the idea. Whether the details were carried out by him or by others in his organization is a matter of academic interest, but doesn't change anything.

So why have we not found the leader yet? Would that not be 100% top priority. NO. The Coalotion of the 'Willing' invaded and occupied Iraq which before had NO TIES to AQ or Bin Laden. You can say AQ may have been in Iraq before the war, but they were not working with Hussein. Remember Hussein did not like AQ (remember the difference between Sunni, Shiite, ect??? remember this for it is important)

For me, I have somehow woke up in the past 3 years. I felt like I have been asleep most of my life. Now my mind is seeing things I never noticed before. I have become more skeptical of many things. Sure you can say I am crazy, but I guaruntee you I am not 'Polynewbie'. Get to know me and you wont think I am crazy,and you will not think that the 9/11 inside job is crazy as well.

Challenge to all of you. Stop watching TV for a couple weeks, I mean altogether stop. Be critical. I know Polynewbie sounds crazy to you, and he sounds a little crazy to me. Zealous in a way, passionate you may say. But he is quite insulting to many posters here, and I'd like for him to stop insulting others, and the others stop insulting him as well. It does no good for any of you.

I will be back in a few more pages to tell Polynewbie again that he must change his approach in order to get the likes of you readers on board.

To me, 9/11 was more important than anyone really realizes, and what it means for 'freedom'.

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:For the "stolen $2.3 trillion" theory to be true, Rumsfeld would have had to have stolen EVERY SINGLE PENNY of the Department of Defense budget from the end of the first Gulf War right up to Sept 11, AND A LOT MORE!

Do you not see a problem with this? Do you just not get why this doesn't make any sense?

This again is a meaningless arguement. It makes sense if Rumsfeld himself had admitted to the missing 2.3 trillion dollars. Its now over 3 trillion dollars and its enough to buy 500 fully equiped Nimitz class aircraft carriers.

Pentagon Missing Trillions Sept 10 2001

When I saw the sept 11 attack I thought it was an inside job to distract people from this announcement I saw on sept 10 2001 on CNN with Rumsfeld.

kimmy:Do you not see a problem with this? Do you just not get why this doesn't make any sense?

It makes perfect sense if the government has gone criminal which it has.

This is what you need to figure out.

[PolyNewbie]

GhostHacked:I will be back in a few more pages to tell Polynewbie again that he must change his approach in order to get the likes of you readers on board.

I appreciate your advice 8-). I know where you are if I need it.

[kimmy]

kimmy:For the "stolen $2.3 trillion" theory to be true, Rumsfeld would have had to have stolen EVERY SINGLE PENNY of the Department of Defense budget from the end of the first Gulf War right up to Sept 11, AND A LOT MORE!

Do you not see a problem with this? Do you just not get why this doesn't make any sense?

This again is a meaningless arguement. It makes sense if Rumsfeld himself had admitted to the missing 2.3 trillion dollars. Its now over 3 trillion dollars and its enough to buy 500 fully equiped Nimitz class aircraft carriers.

Yes, we all understand that $2.3 trillion dollars is a lot of money.

In fact, it's far more than they had access to.

If somebody told you that a gas station got robbed, and that a million dollars was taken from the cash register, would that make sense? You'd be skeptical, right? You'd say that's not possible? You'd say there's no possible way that the cash register had a million dollars in it, right? You'd be suspicious of the whole story?

So how does it make sense that $2.3 trillion was stolen from a department that only had an annual budget of $200 million?

Pentagon Missing Trillions Sept 10 2001

When I saw the sept 11 attack I thought it was an inside job to distract people from this announcement I saw on sept 10 2001 on CNN with Rumsfeld.

kimmy:Do you not see a problem with this? Do you just not get why this doesn't make any sense?

It makes perfect sense if the government has gone criminal which it has.

This is what you need to figure out.

You're claiming they stole over 10 times as much money as they even had access to.

That only makes sense if you're bad at math.

And that is what YOU need to figure out.

-k

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:You're claiming they stole over 10 times as much money as they even had access to.

Rumsfeld admits the missing money cannot be traced. What is the matter ? Are you going to say it was a fake Rumsfeld making this admission on TV ?

Get A Grip !!!!!

[kimmy]

kimmy:You're claiming they stole over 10 times as much money as they even had access to.

Rumsfeld admits the missing money cannot be traced. What is the matter ? Are you going to say it was a fake Rumsfeld making this admission on TV ?

Get A Grip !!!!!

And once again we return to the fact that the phrase "According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions" means something a lot different from the meaning that truthies have attributed to it.

My own banking information indicates that I've engaged in tens of thousands of dollars through my bank account during my lifetime, and yet I can't track any of the transactions older than a month or two.

If I was applying truthie logic to this situation, I would be jumping up and down with rage shouting "OMG I have been robbed of tens of thousands of dollars!!!!"

Since I'm not a truthie, I look at the situation rationally, note that I never actually had tens of thousands of dollars at any point, observe that the tens of thousands of dollars of transactions I've made consist of both withdrawals and deposits spaced over a number of years, and remind myself that I have not kept very good records of what I've spent my money on when I've withdrawn it.

The fact of the matter is that Rumsfeld was calling for improved accounting procedures, not announcing a gigantic theft. The fact $2.3 trillion figure exceeds the DoD budget by an order of magnitude proves that the $2.3 trillion of transactions they can't track had to be made over at least a decade, and more likely over the course of many decades.

And, the fact that he mentioned the money at all casts doubt on the idea that they thought it was anything to cover up. Like, duh.

-k

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:My own banking information indicates that I've engaged in tens of thousands of dollars through my bank account during my lifetime, and yet I can't track any of the transactions older than a month or two.

I've been in business for over ten years and done all my transactions by computer. I can track every single penny of my business expenses just by looking at a computer screen. If I can do it the Pentagon can do it. The banks do it.

The banks do millions of dollars of transactions every day. They track every single penny.

You can't track your personal transactions because you don't need to - you do not need to account to anyone if you go out for a few beers and tip the waiter. Its your money but if you were managing someone elses money for them and you made errors you would be held responsible.

kimmy:And, the fact that he mentioned the money at all casts doubt on the idea that they thought it was anything to cover up. Like, duh.

No, he knows he can't hide it and announces it himself to look better rather than have someone else do it.

[na85]

na85:All right Poly, I've watched that Osama tape. I am uncertain about its authenticity. I could be persuaded either way.

I'm waiting for you to admit that the overweight black man with a pug nose is not Bin Laden.

It's not bin Laden

[PolyNewbie]

OK. (re 2nd law of thermo)

Just give me tonight because its not a simple thing and requires some info for me to look up and get it right.

Can you discuss 911 with profs ?

[kuzadd]

Hello !

I am up for the debate on 9/11 and prefer no name calling, unless one wishes to display, the inherent weakness in their own arguement.

Hey PN!

[GostHacked]

Kimmy

My own banking information indicates that I've engaged in tens of thousands of dollars through my bank account during my lifetime, and yet I can't track any of the transactions older than a month or two.

Actually you can ask for a history from your bank of every transaction you have made for the past few years. When I log into my banking info online I can view 1 year back of all my transactions I have made with online payments and debit purchases. Ok some money is unaccounted for, for I took out cash for things. HOWEVER there is still a record of me taking out money at an ATM.

And again, I must point out that it is a government/military we are talking about. Accountable to the people. So I demand more diligent work when it comes to tracking how a government spends the people's money. So don't tell me they have overlooked something.

The article about Rumsfeld and the missing 2.3 trillion is suspicious...

If I was applying truthie logic to this situation, I would be jumping up and down with rage shouting "OMG I have been robbed of tens of thousands of dollars!!!!"

But you handle your own finances and bookeeping correct? I know I do. And Polynewbie is correct, ever since ATMs have been in place, transactions have been recorded and stored somewhere. Hell even when we were all on a paper system we still were able to track all the money.

Its your money but if you were managing someone elses money for them and you made errors you would be held responsible.

Either someone is hiding something, or there is gross imcompetence in the government. ACCOUNTABILITY, and no one really is responsible for this mismanagement of the people's tax money. Imagine what kind of healthcare system 2.3 trillion could buy. In a way I also have to trust the bank to provide me with a system that can allow me to easily track and record my finances. The options are there, go look for them.

If somebody told you that a gas station got robbed, and that a million dollars was taken from the cash register, would that make sense? You'd be skeptical, right? You'd say that's not possible? You'd say there's no possible way that the cash register had a million dollars in it, right? You'd be suspicious of the whole story?

Of course, I'd be suspicious. A gas station does not have 1 million in cash, but some money in assets (like fuel, land, ect) so yeah, kind of a bad analogy. I will use your argument, that 2.3 trillion is unaccounted for.

Was the theaft internal or external??