Stephane Dion's deal with Elizabeth May in Nova Central

[August1991]

I haven't read the posts in this thread but I think this is a magistral move on Dion's part.

It helps the Liberals, tremendously. Dion is no slouch when it comes to strategy and people selling him short are making a mistake, I think. (Note: What many now say about Dion they once said about Harper.)

I think Canadian politics are entering a fascinating phase. Dion and Harper will be an interesting debate.

---

BTW, Dion is right on substance. His troika of environment, fairness and growth is what Canadians want. IOW, Harper has a handicap.

[Catchme]

Hmmmm, I think this is less shaddy and more democratic than the takeover of the PC's. With MacKay selling them out to the Alliance, I mean nothing much more than that could be less democratic in Canadian politics.

I see absolutely no benefit in this to the CPC at all.

[betsy]

I don't know if your an NDP supporter or not, but on MDL, Ed Broadbent tore Scott Reid into pieces and scattered them the 4 winds, catch the repeat if you want to (on newsnet). People don't like backdoor shenanigans. Good call on the poll numbers though, way too volatile.

Yeah! And Broadbent also revealed that Elizabeth May tried to talk to the NDP too, but was politely told to take a hike. Talk about hunger for power! I'm not that surprised about Dion (since he belongs with the Chretien era, so what do you expect?) BUT, for a rookie like May, she seems quite at ease getting into the political sleaze game in no time at all. Scary to think to what extent she can go once she's in power.

Layton is right! Dion and May had spat on democracy! What about those who believes in Liberal values in Nova Scotia? Why shouldn't they get the option to vote for a Liberal candidate?

What happens to our country if this practice becomes the norm?

MDuffy also said that some prominent Liberal supporters are calling for an open revolt against Dion.

Will hopeful Liberal contenders take advantage of this situation to get rid of Dion?

[geoffrey]

Hmmmm, I think this is less shaddy and more democratic than the takeover of the PC's. With MacKay selling them out to the Alliance, I mean nothing much more than that could be less democratic in Canadian politics.

I see absolutely no benefit in this to the CPC at all.

Well, it definitely secured Peter his riding.

Peter's sell out to the Alliance did cost him, it definitely directed many former PC's towards to the Liberals initially. Joe Clark even said he'd vote Liberal before he voted for Harper. That said, it all settles out in the end.

The PC's were irrelevant at the time, the Liberals still have relevance (they might want to pick a better leader next time if they want to keep that). There is a sizeable difference in that regard.

[jdobbin]

MDuffy also said that some prominent Liberal supporters are calling for an open revolt against Dion.

Will hopeful Liberal contenders take advantage of this situation to get rid of Dion?

I haven't heard anything about prominent Liberals speaking out. Sounds like the prominent Tories who were speaking out prior to the last election on Harper. They turned out to be puffs of smoke once Harper won.

[Michael Bluth]

MDuffy also said that some prominent Liberal supporters are calling for an open revolt against Dion.

Will hopeful Liberal contenders take advantage of this situation to get rid of Dion?

I haven't heard anything about prominent Liberals speaking out. Sounds like the prominent Tories who were speaking out prior to the last election on Harper. They turned out to be puffs of smoke once Harper won.

Of course jdobbin hasn't heard anything. It's easy to turn a deaf ear to news you don't want to hear.

You are right Betsy. Warren Kinsella is definitely one prominent Liberal who has spoken out against this move. Link.

Anybody want to add more?

[betsy]

Hmmmm, I think this is less shaddy and more democratic than the takeover of the PC's. With MacKay selling them out to the Alliance, I mean nothing much more than that could be less democratic in Canadian politics.

But the "selling out" to the Alliance was done with the knowledge of party members! How can you say it was not democratic? Members were told of the plan to merge....and members voted who would lead!

Dion and May, on the other hand, had sprung this surprise on their own members!

And the Green Party is actually a small "c" apparently in their values, at least that's what May was explaining in an interview a few weeks ago. According to a journalist, May is against womens' right to choose...which I would interpret that she is anti-abortion.

And what is this?

The leader of the Green Party is endorsing that her rival party leader (Liberal) will make a better Prime Minister! So where does that leaves her???? She's suggesting she's not as good as Dion to be a Prime Minister? What is she doing leading her party then?

The Green Party should just kick her out of office and find another leader who thinks she/he is a good leader to go head-to-head with any other leaders vying to be Prime Minister....since in a way, Elizabeth May seems to be conceding defeat as a leader, practically saying people should vote for Dion (and not her), since Dion will make a better PM!

[Michael Bluth]

Hmmmm, I think this is less shaddy and more democratic than the takeover of the PC's. With MacKay selling them out to the Alliance, I mean nothing much more than that could be less democratic in Canadian politics.

But the "selling out" to the Alliance was done with the knowledge of party members! How can you say it was not democratic? Members were told of the plan to merge....and members voted who would lead!

Dion and May, on the other hand, had sprung this surprise on their own members!

What is this?

The Alliance-PC merger was approved by a majority vote of the members of both parties.

May made her deal with the Liberals after Jacko wouldn't take her call.

But she didn't make a "backroom deal". Hmmm, what does she consider a backroom deal exactly?

[scribblet]

Hmmmm, I think this is less shaddy and more democratic than the takeover of the PC's. With MacKay selling them out to the Alliance, I mean nothing much more than that could be less democratic in Canadian politics.

I see absolutely no benefit in this to the CPC at all.

There was no selling out - it was quite democratic, the large majority voted for the merger - where you part of the process or are you simply speaking as a biased observer.

[betsy]

MDuffy also said that some prominent Liberal supporters are calling for an open revolt against Dion.

Will hopeful Liberal contenders take advantage of this situation to get rid of Dion?

I haven't heard anything about prominent Liberals speaking out. Sounds like the prominent Tories who were speaking out prior to the last election on Harper. They turned out to be puffs of smoke once Harper won.

Mike Duffy read some names (these people apparently e-mailed Duffy), one being a prominent supporter from Toronto.

[blueblood]

I haven't read the posts in this thread but I think this is a magistral move on Dion's part.

It helps the Liberals, tremendously. Dion is no slouch when it comes to strategy and people selling him short are making a mistake, I think. (Note: What many now say about Dion they once said about Harper.)

I think Canadian politics are entering a fascinating phase. Dion and Harper will be an interesting debate.

---

BTW, Dion is right on substance. His troika of environment, fairness and growth is what Canadians want. IOW, Harper has a handicap.

he's competing with harper, the grand poobah of strategy in Cdn. politics. Scott Reid got torn in half over this on MDL. How is Dion going to explain to Canadians that the only way to honor Kyoto without tanking the economy is to send billions of dollars overseas? I like Harper's strategy, I just wish he had more charisma (Danny Williams type). When Harper has more charisma than Dion, there is a problem.

Dion had an advantage over Harper walking into Ottawa, He's leader of a very popular centrist party. He's been handed popular support on a plate, what does he do, he squanders it?

Harper on the other hand had to work his tail off to shed this scary scary image. Sure the libs had sponsorship, but I'd take that over being a scary radical right wing facist party (according to a sizable portion of urban voters) Harper and co. will spin this very well, hell the NDP is spinning this well too.

Maybe having a lame duck as a leader is excellent strategy on the part of Gerard Kennedy to get to the PMO; back up the crappiest leader, get the party destroyed in the next election, completely overhaul the party with Gerard at the top, who during Dion's tenure will have gained some exposure in a high profile critic post.

But I like Harper's strategy of waiting till 09 to call an election; more time to conduct popular policies, bang the Afghan mission is over, the troops arrive back home with full media coverage, bang the budget comes out soon after riddled with pre-election goodies --> Tory majority. I think that is Harper's strategy.

The question is how long will the Libs hold onto Dion, from what is going on in the media it's like the Liberals want him to be unpopular. The other question is how long will Kennedy wait to spring his trap?

[betsy]

At least the CP will have a field day doing ads depicting this unholy alliance! The CP just got mana from heaven! Two birds in one shot!

Boy, Harper will chew them both when they do their debates! Lol!

Btw, the Liberals, NDP, Green and some Tories are practically pointing out that the Conservatives are starting to look like Liberals. I guess Liberal supporters left out in the cold in Nova Scotia may not find it too hard to support McKay, just so to show Dion and May!

[BubberMiley]

I don't see how it's anti-democratic to choose to not run in a particular riding. In fact, there's considerable precedent of deals like that being made in parliamentary politics. It's not like Canadians have a constitutional right to be able to vote Liberal. In fact, when Stockwell Day was breaking the law to run in the by-election for Okanagan–Coquihalla on 9/11, 2000, the Liberals (surprise!) didn't run a candidate against him (or Joe Clark) as a courtesy because they were party leaders. Where was the indignant outrage from Conservatives then?

http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?sectio...&textonly=false

[jdobbin]

Mike Duffy read some names (these people apparently e-mailed Duffy), one being a prominent supporter from Toronto.

I'd like to see some of those names. I can't find information anywhere on it.

[jdobbin]

I don't see how it's anti-democratic to choose to not run in a particular riding. In fact, there's considerable precedent of deals like that being made in parliamentary politics. It's not like Canadians have a constitutional right to be able to vote Liberal. In fact, when Stockwell Day was breaking the law to run in the by-election for Okanagan–Coquihalla on 9/11, 2000, the Liberals (surprise!) didn't run a candidate against him (or Joe Clark) as a courtesy because they were party leaders. Where was the indignant outrage from Conservatives then?

http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?sectio...&textonly=false

I'm sure they will argue it was a bye-election and quite different. I don't see how it is really different though.

[Canadian Blue]

I wonder if the local riding association approved this deal. Either way it seems pretty shady, and it has nothing to do with principle. Where is the principle in taking out one cabinet minister in Nova Scotia.

I think Ed Broadbent said it best with regards to this deal.

"Did they have telephone conversations in front of the cameras?" former NDP leader ED Broadbent sarcastically asked.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[Catchme]

I don't see how it's anti-democratic to choose to not run in a particular riding. In fact, there's considerable precedent of deals like that being made in parliamentary politics. It's not like Canadians have a constitutional right to be able to vote Liberal. In fact, when Stockwell Day was breaking the law to run in the by-election for Okanagan–Coquihalla on 9/11, 2000, the Liberals (surprise!) didn't run a candidate against him (or Joe Clark) as a courtesy because they were party leaders. Where was the indignant outrage from Conservatives then?

http://www.elections.ca/content.asp?sectio...&textonly=false

Don't cha know, it is do as I say, not as I do too.

Just like they forget about the shaddy MacKay Orchard nonsense and then MackAy selling out the PC's and them slipping in the oh, you can hold a dual membership, and vote twice. We have no dirt on hands lies.

100 million dollars are missing in DND contracts, but it is "oh. no big deal", "so what if we are feeding heavily at the trough the Liberals did",

[jdobbin]

I wonder if the local riding association approved this deal. Either way it seems pretty shady, and it has nothing to do with principle. Where is the principle in taking out one cabinet minister in Nova Scotia.

Two former candidates have said they understand Dion's strategy.

The principle is to deny the Tories a majority.

As far as Broadbent's criticism, his party routinely has targeted seats they can win and starved others of financial support.

[Canadian Blue]

One seat won't deprive the Tories of a majority, unless the Liberals decide to concede more seats to the Greens, and the Greens concede seats to the Liberals.

I think May isn't thinking straight since I'd imagine Green Party supporters are simply gonna leave and vote Liberal if May is endorsing the Liberals; especially considering the Liberal Party doesn't exactly have a stellar environmental record.

As far as Broadbent's criticism, his party routinely has targeted seats they can win and starved others of financial support.

The difference being that they don't concede seats simply to beat a cabinet minister. I could understand if the Liberals and Greens joined in a coalition of some sort, but this is just ridiculous. Depriving the Tories of one seat won't make much of a difference, and I highly doubt Dion was in danger of losing his seat.

[Canadian Blue]

Just like they forget about the shaddy MacKay Orchard nonsense and then MackAy selling out the PC's and them slipping in the oh, you can hold a dual membership, and vote twice. We have no dirt on hands lies.

Catchme I hate to break it to you but the PC's always had that rule, Peter Mackay didn't use any dirty tricks. Even if a few CA members did join it wouldn't have been enough to sway the vote.

100 million dollars are missing in DND contracts, but it is "oh. no big deal", "so what if we are feeding heavily at the trough the Liberals did",

A link perhaps.

[Michael Bluth]

Mike Duffy read some names (these people apparently e-mailed Duffy), one being a prominent supporter from Toronto.

I'd like to see some of those names. I can't find information anywhere on it.

1. Warren Kinsella Link Uhhh, prominent former Liberal candidate, advisor to Jean Chretien and Barney the Dinosaur doll brandisher.

2. Rodger Cuzner, Liberal MP Cape-Breton Casno check out the story on tonight's National.

[gc1765]

Layton is right! Dion and May had spat on democracy! What about those who believes in Liberal values in Nova Scotia? Why shouldn't they get the option to vote for a Liberal candidate?

What happens to our country if this practice becomes the norm?

I'll repeat a post I made in another thread:

"Just heard Jack Layton complaining that the Liberals are depriving people of choice by not running a candidate. Nice try Jack. The NDP might not be such a bad option if this guy wasn't the leader.

Gues what Jack, I'm not running in the next election either, does that mean I am depriving the people in my riding of a choice in the election? "

Seriously though, someone please explain to me how this is undemocratic. Voters in that riding can still vote for the Conservatives, NDP, Green, any minor parties/independents... If you're still not satisfied with those choices, run yourself! What if an independent ran with "liberal" values? Is that still undemocratic? Come on...

[August1991]

Dion had an advantage over Harper walking into Ottawa, He's leader of a very popular centrist party. He's been handed popular support on a plate, what does he do, he squanders it?

Harper on the other hand had to work his tail off to shed this scary scary image. Sure the libs had sponsorship, but I'd take that over being a scary radical right wing facist party (according to a sizable portion of urban voters) Harper and co. will spin this very well, hell the NDP is spinning this well too.

That's a good comparison. Harper confronting the *scary, scary* against Dion dealing with Adscam. Neither Dion nor Harper have much mojo - they're both policy wonks. All things considered, Dion is sexier. He's thinner and less vain - Dion wears his glasses in public.

But reading through this thread (and why do we have two threads - this one was started first), all that I can find are smarmy, whining complaints. Tories are bad losers, and bad winners.

----

If you don't think the environment will be a major issue in the future, then you don't understand economics, ecology or Canadian politics. On a simple level, let me try this argument: as people get richer, they are cleaner. Canadians are rich.

IOW, Dion is on the right side of this issue (and Harper knows this too because he replaced Ambrose with Baird). Quibble as the posters on this thread choose, dems da simple facts.

As to Dion's integrity, there's an old tradition of stepping aside to let a party leader win a by-election. And where was Harper's integrity in making Fortier a cabinet minister or accepting Emerson across the floor?

On the whole, I think Dion will better Harper on the broad strokes of the future. Dion is a better thinker. We have yet to see Harper appeal to people's better angels.

Canadians should take pride: they have created such a society where such men of diverse origin debate in for Canadian votes. Harper may well win more votes in Quebec than Dion. And Dion more votes in Ontario than Harper.

[Canadian Blue]

As to Dion's integrity, there's an old tradition of stepping aside to let a party leader win a by-election. And where was Harper's integrity in making Fortier a cabinet minister or accepting Emerson across the floor?

Then I'll assume no Tory or NDP candidates will run against Dion, no Liberals, NDP, or Green candidates against Harper, and so on. This isn't a by-election, we're talking about a general election, if they wanted May in parliament they shouldn't have run a candidate against her in London.

On the whole, I think Dion will better Harper on the broad strokes of the future. Dion is a better thinker. We have yet to see Harper appeal to people's better angels.

I don't think so, in my own opinion Dion does what most politicians do, including Harper, do whatever it takes to get into power.

"Just heard Jack Layton complaining that the Liberals are depriving people of choice by not running a candidate. Nice try Jack. The NDP might not be such a bad option if this guy wasn't the leader.

Gues what Jack, I'm not running in the next election either, does that mean I am depriving the people in my riding of a choice in the election? "

I think Jack Layton's major issue was that the Green Party shouldn't treat the Liberals as though they are the saviors of the environment. I highly doubt we'll see a larger commitment from the Liberals if they do get into power.

My personal opinion is that people were joining the Green Party because they wanted an alternative, with this deal it seems that the Green Party is simply the little brother of the Liberal Party. Its a damn shame to, I know that I won't be voting for them in the next election since they have basically conceded to a party which has done little for the environment.

[gc1765]

I think Jack Layton's major issue was that the Green Party shouldn't treat the Liberals as though they are the saviors of the environment. I highly doubt we'll see a larger commitment from the Liberals if they do get into power.

If that was what Jack said, I would agree with him.

But Jack's beef was that this was some sort of "undemocratic" backroom deal, depriving Canadians of a choice in the election. That is B.S.