The Left & Morality

[marcinmoka]

I was recently looking at photos of Anti-Canadian Involvement in Afgahnistan (and by default unfortunately, pro-Taliban ) demonstrations in the Toronto, and I was puzzled by what I saw.

Marching in unison, there were Burka clad women and leftist feminists, secular peacenicks walking alongside members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

WHAT THE ???

Not only was I puzzled, I was laughing a bit too. Lefty's generally preached from their Ivory Towers how they always have the "Moral High Ground". Bullocks. Here they were, protesting a war which one of it's stated goals.

Most were protesting war, which is respectable some times. But did they ever STOP and THINK about the consequences of Canada and our NATO allies pulling out?

Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, the Left has no more "ideological partnerships". Yet there is the constant need to "rebel" and denounce the STATUS QUO.

So since communists are pretty much extinct, by default and perhaps without careful cotemplation, the only major and vocal group with whom they can show solidarity , which sadly in our day, are ISLAMFASCISTS

Why? They are anti American, and if America embodies "Raw Capitalism", than anything which seeks to destroy it must be good. Including Islamic fundamentalism. How sad.

* I fear the day when this is taken to far by impressionable youth. God forbid the day when you see a hostage video of men with Kalashnikovs wearing ski masks, but the Hamas green has been replaced with NDP orange *

The strangest image I saw at the Toronto rally, a placard stating "BOOKS NOT BOMBS"

Right, because if the Taliban came back into power, they would permit books by the millions.

[Charles Anthony]

I get the sneaking suspicion that maybe -- just maybe -- the people at the demonstration have a different take on the matter. Just a feeling on that one.

[Shakeyhands]

is there a link to a story involved here? I must have missed the demonstration in the news.

[guyser]

About the only thing I got out of your post OP is that you somehow make the leap that a protest with women with short hair, burka wearing women, and marching with members of the Muslim community = Islamofascists .

Is that far "assumption" ?

Edit your post and tell us what is wrong.

[marcinmoka]

.

[marcinmoka]

s there a link to a story involved here? I must have missed the demonstration in the news

Nope. I was just looking at photos of Toronto on FLICKR.COM. It took place a few months ago but was refreshed today upon seeing a "Canada out of Afghanistan" sticker on campus.

About the only thing I got out of your post OP is that you somehow make the leap that a protest with women with short hair, burka wearing women, and marching with members of the Muslim community = Islamofascists .

What else would you call the Taliban?

If NATO would pull out, who do you think will set up shop? A liberal democratic institution overnight?

I get the sneaking suspicion that maybe -- just maybe -- the people at the demonstration have a different take on the matter. Just a feeling on that one.

I bet so too. Perhaps out of simple "naivety" they were protesting in what may of seemed as "just cause", but in reality was an implicit wish to get the Taliban back into power.

Think of the "books not bombs" placard. It's a genuine, sincere wish which would do much good. But without those bombs, the Taliban would be back in power, and then what good are the books, except for mass burnings of evil "infidel propaganda".

Or take the case of womens rights, which is AN EXTREMELY VALID CAUSE. If the protesters got their way, would that not be an ENORMOUS SETBACK for womens rights?

[guyser]

About the only thing I got out of your post OP is that you somehow make the leap that a protest with women with short hair, burka wearing women, and marching with members of the Muslim community = Islamofascists .

What else would you call the Taliban?

Your OP did not say it was a Taliban march. So yes you did assume they were marching in favour of the Taliban.

[marcinmoka]

Your OP did not say it was a Taliban march. So yes you did assume they were marching in favour of the Taliban.

They were marching AGAINST Canadian involvment in Afghanistan. What is Canada's current objective in Afghanistan? (keep in mind it is a NATO combat mission, not a UN peacekeeping mission). Who are they to combat?

Realistically, you can't have both worlds, i.e. No NATO military involvement and a stabilized Taliban-free Afghanistan?

Choose one or the other. Which one do you choose, Guyser?

[marcinmoka]

By the way, please don't distort my posts:

marching with members of the Muslim community

Yes, they are members, but had you preceded the portion "members of the Muslim community" with "radical", than I would of let it pass.

The minority who wears Burkas or supports the Muslim Brotherhood is not even remotely representative of the whole Muslim community. You should know better. They are a fraction, albeit a far more radical fraction.

Most Muslims immigrated here for the same reason we did, peace, prosperity and to be removed from the region we left behind.

The ultimate point of my post: Maybe what they were protesting against wasn't really too thought out. Anger can cloud rational judgement

[guyser]

[They were marching AGAINST Canadian involvment in Afghanistan.

Choose one or the other. Which one do you choose, Guyser?

I would think your teacher would fail you on this one sir. They may be marching to protest the war in afghan.

You made the connection to terrorists not me.

[guyser]

By the way, please don't distort my posts:

marching with members of the Muslim community

Her are your words..."walking alongside members of the Muslim Brotherhood."

Brotherhood ..community , I would call that semantics, not distortion.

A distortion is the alteration of the original shape (or other characteristic) of an object, image, sound, waveform or other form of information or representation

Semantics (Greek semantikos, giving signs, significant, symptomatic, from sema, sign) refers to the aspects of meaning that are expressed in a language, code, or other form of representation

[August1991]

You can see some of the photographs here although I didn't see one showing clearly Lady Burkha beside Bearded Leftist (but I didn't look a long time either).

As to this question, I happen to prefer this image of Elvis Gratton.

I once started a thread on this contradiction of feminist leftists supporting the mullahs. Here's the OP:

Individual "Leftists" have different opinions and support different causes. But I think the Left fits a certain generalization.

The Left likes to champion the rights of the oppressed against dominant forces.

Once, this meant nationalizing the economy and creating socialism. The purpose was to protect exploited workers against rich capitalists. Now, for example, the modern Left has taken up social liberal causes - the defense of minority gays and others against majority social conservatives.

This cartoon business poses a contradiction for the Left.

The Left wants to defend the oppressed minority of Muslims against the dominant philosophy of Western liberal values. To do this however, the Left looks absurd defending the rank social conservatism and sheer ignorance of the mullahs - in direct contradiction of its support for oppressed women, for example.

The core problem here is that "dominant" and "oppressed" are arbitrary terms. The Left's language of "power politics" and "class relations" is hollow. An individual can be a member of a so-called dominant group in one circumstance and a member of a so-called oppressed group in another.

If you click on the arrow in the quote, you'll get directed to the thread.

[marcinmoka]

Brotherhood ..community , I would call that semantics, not distortion.

dis·tor·tion (dĭ-stôr'shən) pronunciation

n.

2. A statement that twists fact; a misrepresentation.

Wow. Thank you. But I take it you've never heard of the Muslim Brotherhood.

That's like saying "Klu Klux Klan" - and then pointing out "Klan" means tightly knit group and that's all there is to say about them.

Notice - "Brotherhood" not "brotherhood"

The capital implies a proper noun.

Or Columbia Encyclopedia:

officially Jamiat al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun [Arab.,=Society of Muslim Brothers], religious and political organization founded (1928) in Egypt by Hasan al-Banna. Early opposed to secular tendencies in Islamic nations, the organization has sought to foster a return to the original precepts of the Qur’an. It grew rapidly, establishing an educational, economic, military, and political infrastructure. Threatened by its power, Egypt’s government twice banned (1948, 1954) the organization. It has since existed largely as a clandestine but militant group, marked by its rejection of Western influences. The Muslim Brotherhood remains strong in Egypt, Syria, Sudan, and other Arab countries and has resorted to acts of political violence. It was permitted to operate openly in Egypt in the late 1980s and early 90s after disavowing violence in the 1970s, but the government again moved against the group in the mid- and late 1990s. Members have been elected to Egypt’s parliament as independents. In Jordan the Muslim Brotherhood’s political arm, the Islamic Action Front, is an important opposition party. The Muslim Brotherhood has given rise to a number of more militant and violent organizations, such as Hamas, Gama’a al-Islamiya, and Islamic Jihad.

I would think your teacher would fail you on this one sir. They may be marching to protest the war in afghan.

If I avoided the question like you, yes they would.

I repeat:

No NATO military involvement and a stabilized Taliban-free Afghanistan?

Choose one or the other. Which one do you choose, Guyser

Not "why", but "which" do YOU choose".

You made the connection to terrorists not me.

Where? Funny, I don't re-call using that term. I made a joke (unless a smiley face has some alternate connotations for you) about radical NDP, but hardly this connection you speak of.

But here is some more reading:

http://www.adl.org/terrorism/symbols/musli...otherhood_1.asp

[Figleaf]

Most were protesting war, which is respectable some times. But did they ever STOP and THINK about the consequences of Canada and our NATO allies pulling out?

Well, I can't speak for the left, but indeed, let us stop and think about consequences. Can Afghanistan be re-envisioned, given the resources that are available to be brought to bear?

[Mad_Michael]

* I fear the day when this is taken to far by impressionable youth. God forbid the day when you see a hostage video of men with Kalashnikovs wearing ski masks, but the Hamas green has been replaced with NDP orange *

I fear people who equate the existence of the NDP with terrorism.

[Shakeyhands]

I looked at probably about one hundred of the pictures August linked to, and I didn't see one Burkha... I feel gipped!

[guyser]

Brotherhood ..community , I would call that semantics, not distortion.

Wow. Thank you. But I take it you've never heard of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Not in that sense, I thought you meant small "b" brotherhood, not the group.

You made the connection to terrorists not me.

Where? Funny, I don't re-call using that term.

I mean no disrespect , but would it be honest for you to say you do not recall connecting to terrorists when you post ...." the only major and vocal group with whom they can show solidarity , which sadly in our day, are ISLAMFASCISTS"

What are islamfascists (sic) ? Terrorists. The connection is not mine sir.

[marcinmoka]

Not in that sense, I thought you meant small "b" brotherhood, not the group

Well I didn't because

a) The would be stupid and very naive.

I would of presented it as a proper noun.

What are islamfascists (sic) ? Terrorists. The connection is not mine sir.

Well sir, nor is it my doing.

But you do seem to be implying that all Islamofascists are terrorists, no? There is a considerable amount of people subscribing to such an ideological stream (though still a minority), but most are devoid of any will to act in an illegal manner. Some use elections, others the court of law in an attempt to bring forth their desire. (Though I do find great irony in the use of democratic institutions to impose non democratic principles)

Just seeking clarification.

[guyser]

Did you write this ?

"So since communists are pretty much extinct, by default and perhaps without careful cotemplation, the only major and vocal group with whom they can show solidarity , which sadly in our day, are ISLAMFASCISTS"

If so, what does Islamofascists mean?

[Black Dog]

marcinmoka

They were marching AGAINST Canadian involvment in Afghanistan. What is Canada's current objective in Afghanistan? (keep in mind it is a NATO combat mission, not a UN peacekeeping mission). Who are they to combat?

Realistically, you can't have both worlds, i.e. No NATO military involvement and a stabilized Taliban-free Afghanistan?

Choose one or the other. Which one do you choose, Guyser?

Ah, I love the smell of false dilemmas in the spring.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I was recently looking at photos of Anti-Canadian Involvement in Afgahnistan (and by default unfortunately, pro-Taliban ) demonstrations in the Toronto, and I was puzzled by what I saw.

Marching in unison, there were Burka clad women and leftist feminists, secular peacenicks walking alongside members of the Muslim Brotherhood.

WHAT THE ???

Not only was I puzzled, I was laughing a bit too. Lefty's generally preached from their Ivory Towers how they always have the "Moral High Ground". Bullocks. Here they were, protesting a war which one of it's stated goals.

Most were protesting war, which is respectable some times. But did they ever STOP and THINK about the consequences of Canada and our NATO allies pulling out?

Ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, the Left has no more "ideological partnerships". Yet there is the constant need to "rebel" and denounce the STATUS QUO.

So since communists are pretty much extinct, by default and perhaps without careful cotemplation, the only major and vocal group with whom they can show solidarity , which sadly in our day, are ISLAMFASCISTS

Why? They are anti American, and if America embodies "Raw Capitalism", than anything which seeks to destroy it must be good. Including Islamic fundamentalism. How sad.

* I fear the day when this is taken to far by impressionable youth. God forbid the day when you see a hostage video of men with Kalashnikovs wearing ski masks, but the Hamas green has been replaced with NDP orange *

The strangest image I saw at the Toronto rally, a placard stating "BOOKS NOT BOMBS"

Right, because if the Taliban came back into power, they would permit books by the millions.

What a superb post.

You said it perfectly. And this isn't a theory - it's fact in at least one case.

I have a relative who is every bit the snivelling coffee house grump that Black Dog is - and he used to love the commies back in the day. Was I surprised that he has converted to Islam in the wake of it's new found status as the antithesis of America? Not at all.

[Black Dog]

What a superb post.

You said it perfectly. And this isn't a theory - it's fact in at least one case.

I have a relative who is every bit the snivelling coffee house grump that Black Dog is - and he used to love the commies back in the day. Was I surprised that he has converted to Islam in the wake of it's new found status as the antithesis of America? Not at all.

In addition to the glaring need for remedial logic and reading comprehension training, it seems you also need a brush-up on stats. A sample size of one is not sufficient to draw conclusions from.

[JerrySeinfeld]

What a superb post.

You said it perfectly. And this isn't a theory - it's fact in at least one case.

I have a relative who is every bit the snivelling coffee house grump that Black Dog is - and he used to love the commies back in the day. Was I surprised that he has converted to Islam in the wake of it's new found status as the antithesis of America? Not at all.

In addition to the glaring need for remedial logic and reading comprehension training, it seems you also need a brush-up on stats. A sample size of one is not sufficient to draw conclusions from.

Again, DOGGY, with the enlightening a new information. Your contributions to this forum are a shining example of stating the obvious. Let's see so far today you've burst onto the scene with the shocking revelations that:

1. Not all Muslims are Terrorists and

2. A sample of one doesn't comprise statistical significance

What's next?

The sky is blue?

sidenote: I fugured it out..I KNOW now what you are: you're the guy behind the counter at an internet cafe. how else would you have the time to sit around and pretend yuo know something all fucking day long

hahahahahahaha

[Black Dog]

Again, DOGGY, with the enlightening a new information. Your contributions to this forum are a shining example of stating the obvious. Let's see so far today you've burst onto the scene with the shocking revelations that:

1. Not all Muslims are Terrorists and

2. A sample of one doesn't comprise statistical significance

What's next?

The sky is blue?

One of the first rules of writing is to know one's audience. If my replies are trite, consider the dreck I have to work with.

sidenote: I fugured it out..I KNOW now what you are: you're the guy behind the counter at an internet cafe. how else would you have the time to sit around and pretend yuo know something all fucking day long

You have an unhealthy obsession with my daily activities. If you actually lived in the same city as me (and weren't, as I suspect, 13 years old) I'd be a little squicked out.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Again, DOGGY, with the enlightening a new information. Your contributions to this forum are a shining example of stating the obvious. Let's see so far today you've burst onto the scene with the shocking revelations that:

1. Not all Muslims are Terrorists and

2. A sample of one doesn't comprise statistical significance

What's next?

The sky is blue?

One of the first rules of writing is to know one's audience. If my replies are trite, consider the dreck I have to work with.

sidenote: I fugured it out..I KNOW now what you are: you're the guy behind the counter at an internet cafe. how else would you have the time to sit around and pretend yuo know something all fucking day long

You have an unhealthy obsession with my daily activities. If you actually lived in the same city as me (and weren't, as I suspect, 13 years old) I'd be a little squicked out.

ookaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

careful - the lentils are falling out of your castro beard. don't you have a "taliban back into afghanistan" rally to go whine at?

i'm off for a friday beer. have a great weekend all!