I Thought They Were Going To Try Harder

blueblood · February 28, 2007

Let's see what the different usernames for Baylee have been shall we; imatitlover, stevenbush, and georgeharper.

Yeah, well I have a PROBLEM with your NAME. EVERY TIME I SEE IT I GET THIRSTY.

THEN I HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE

CANADIAN

or

BLUE.

Never a poll on that.

All kidding aside. Baylee rants and the difficulties in Afghanistan get sidelined on this forum just that fast.

There is a problem with the number of Civilians being killed. It is important to find better ways. Perhaps the Afghans have one. But if you have ever read anything about them, who knows what's gonna happen.

I was hoping to see responses from Weaponeer, Army Guy etc, to get their feedback on Afghans wanting to lead a Canadian Convoy with the intent to reduce civilian casualties.

That's one thing about the media everytime a civilian there gets shot, it gets reported. I think only a very small amount do get shot. Look at it this way 20 kids every year get killed or horribly disfigured in accidents involving PTO shafts, never hear about them. Civilians die in war there's no way around it. The soldiers have a right to defend themselves. As the saying goes it's better to be a defendant than a corpse.

Catchme · February 28, 2007

One would think the tires could've been shot out eh?

blueblood · February 28, 2007

One would think the tires could've been shot out eh?

Wouldn't the recoil on a big gun like that mangle the car up pretty good anyway maybe causing death?

Perhaps more education to the Afghan public about warnings when convoys roll through should help.

madmax · March 1, 2007

That's one thing about the media everytime a civilian there gets shot, it gets reported. I think only a very small amount do get shot. Look at it this way 20 kids every year get killed or horribly disfigured in accidents involving PTO shafts, never hear about them. Civilians die in war there's no way around it. The soldiers have a right to defend themselves. As the saying goes it's better to be a defendant than a corpse.

I understand what you are saying. However, with regards to Civilian Casualties reported here, it is only a bad story. But in Afghanistan, it is bad for the war effort. Of course for the soldier it is better to be a defendant than a corpse. But for the Afghans, their is a large portion of the population that lives by the code and therefore are obligated to extract "retribution" if that is their family member. And that is whether friendly or enemy.

With regards to the PTO shafts, these tragedies don't result in someone else picking up arms to avenge the death. And it is rare to hear of these incidents outside the immediate local media. Hopefully, kids can be safety proofed and not put in unnecessary risk, or without proper instruction.

madmax · March 1, 2007

Wouldn't the recoil on a big gun like that mangle the car up pretty good anyway maybe causing death?
Perhaps more education to the Afghan public about warnings when convoys roll through should help.

Yes to the former.

As to the latter, I have no idea how you are going to educate the Afghan Public. You would have a better chance teaching Canadian Forces all the different Afghan Languages.

If Canadian Soldiers are seen as the source of aid and security and provisions. Part of the 3 block strategy, then they are supposed to be considered friendly. Unfortuneatly the confusion of the 3 block theory is that you are supposed fight one block, secure another and provide human aid in another, all the while being able to identify an enemy whom dresses little different from those you are helping.

There are just as many problems with the strategy as with Afghans.

On top of this, it appears most of the recent shootings are all the results of convoys. Very Vulnerable in assymetrical warfare and therefore more likely to use deadly force when feeling threatened by Afghan actions and responses.

Afghans have been around foreign soldiers for nearly 30 years. We have to learn their ways faster, because they aren't going to figure out our ways anytime soon. Which brings me back to what is going to happen if Afghans are accepted in a lead role in convoy missions.

Army Guy · March 2, 2007

Well, i'm finally back on the ground, here in Canada, And it's fantastic. Still have lots to get used to and to adjust to, little things like running water, taking a shower every day, shouting at cars behind me to stay 100 meters back, waking up and looking for my wpn, little habits that i look forward to getting rid of..

GeorgeHarper:

I really don't know why i'm posting a reply to your ill informed posts, i guess i'm doing it to make it clear to the other posters here that your info is false or faulty.

The shootings have put a strain on relations between Canadian soldiers and civilians, who are often caught in the crossfire or hit by wayward warning shots.

Yes, each shooting puts a strain on relations between us and Afgan civilians be it an inocent civilian or a bad guy nobody wants a shoot out on thier streets period. What is false is you making it out like it occurs everyday on every engagement, your words "who are often" is simply not true. And nobody is hit by wayward warning shots, which are aimed shots at either the soft side of the road, or into the air. They are called warning shots for a reason, they are to warn you of what comes next...

The last civilian Canadian soldiers murderd a week and a half ago was a man on foot with a mental disabiity

Yes but what you failed to mention, is that same man had all kinds of eletrical wires coming out of his vest. simlar to what a suicide bomber would have. Which brings me to this piont, have you ever seen what 30 lbs of explosive straped onto a mans chest can do, now add, 10 lbs of 1 inch ballbearings, or nails or small metal plates or anything thier evil little minds can think of, all of these evil things have a range of well over 100 meters.

So now put yourself in this soldiers boots, out of the corner of your eye you spot this guy you bring your rifle up and peer through the scope, what you see is a vest with all kinds of wires coming out of it, You now holding up your hands telling him to stop, he advances, you fire a warning shot into the side of the road...

your memory flashes back a week when you seen the results of another bomber attempt, and what you see is soldiers laying on the ground screaming, because they have had limbs ripped off, theres blood every where, and in that mix is Afgan civilians women and children all screaming for help....2 seconds later you snap back to reality, your training kicks in you aim center of mass and squezze off 2 rounds, that man drops dead. And in a shorter time it took you to read this para, it's all over.

At anytime while you were reading this para did you have time to evalute whether he was mentally stable, why did he not heed the warnings, why did'nt the Afgan civilains stop him, they knew him, they knew what was going to happen...and you have the balls to pin the label of murderer on this soldier, Like i've said before you do not have the experiance nor the knowledge to judge this man for his actions. you where not there, your just some arm chair critic that knows it all, but in reality your just a fool spouting off foolishness because that is all you know..

Army Guy · March 2, 2007

Madmax:

There is a problem with the number of Civilians being killed. It is important to find better ways. Perhaps the Afghans have one. But if you have ever read anything about them, who knows what's gonna happen.

There are plenty of NON lethal wpns out there, but they are expensive, and in this envirment not practical or dangerous to the user....NoN lethal force is for situations that are controled to a certain piont, ie riots, that are only throwing rocks or bricks etc...and you want to subdue a certain indiv ie ring leader, etc etc...They are not always 100% effective...something you need when the other guy has a AK or RPG pionting at you.

They are dangrous to the user because in the heat of the moment when you need lethal force you may grab the wrong wpn...I'm sure that when things become alittle more secure you'll see more non lethal wpns used.

I was hoping to see responses from Weaponeer, Army Guy etc, to get their feedback on Afghans wanting to lead a Canadian Convoy with the intent to reduce civilian casualties.

I would be extremily surprised if they went to this, for lots of reasons. Not all the afgans on the government side are loyal to the government....and money does alot of talking over here if you know what i mean...

To lead or provide security for any convoy you need to know the route, the convoy compostion, ie wpns, manpower, veh type....all this info is closely gaurded for good reason, and released to only those that need to know, and not until the last possiable moment. ( these precautions are taken with Canadian soldiers) Now throw into the mix uncertainity of the loyality of your escort or for that matter giving them advance warning so they could block off routes etc etc ...Not a very good idea...All it would take to throw this country into a severe public and media frenzy is to have 30 or 40 Canadian soldiers killed in one action in one day, if that happened i believe we would be home by the end of that week.

leonardcohen · March 3, 2007

One Question Baylee,Has there ever being a war without civilan casualties?

This is a rhetorical question.

People die,men,women,children, innocent or guilty,all the time-get over it.

It is regrettable when innocent people die,the split second decisions a soldier has to make as to whether somebody is a friend or enemy, is not something i would wish on anybody,the wrong decision will most likely haunt them for the remainder of their days.

Are you incapable of putting yourself in a soldiers shoes and seeing that?

It is easier to criticise,but what punishment would you mete out in your opinion?

madmax · March 3, 2007

One Question Baylee,Has there ever being a war without civilan casualties?

Baylee has been banned. However, there are many people whom have posted in the various Afghan threads, whom claim this is not a war.

People die,men,women,children, innocent or guilty,all the time-get over it.

You want to tell that to a Pashtun? The Afghan Army and the Canadian Forces had a tense standoff after one incident.

When the US Bombed our troops, I wouldn't expect anyone to write the incident off and state "get over it". They are to be investigated and procedures checked. If the procedures are ineffective they need to be changed. If the Procedures haven't been followed, that person, is held accountable. Unfortuneately for the combat soldier on patrol, he is going to be judged over a split second decision that could have negative repurcussions if he is incorrect.

madmax · March 3, 2007

Well, i'm finally back on the ground, here in Canada, And it's fantastic. Still have lots to get used to and to adjust to, little things like running water, taking a shower every day, shouting at cars behind me to stay 100 meters back, waking up and looking for my wpn, little habits that i look forward to getting rid of..

Welcome Back.

White Doors · March 3, 2007

Yes but what you failed to mention, is that same man had all kinds of eletrical wires coming out of his vest. simlar to what a suicide bomber would have. Which brings me to this piont, have you ever seen what 30 lbs of explosive straped onto a mans chest can do, now add, 10 lbs of 1 inch ballbearings, or nails or small metal plates or anything thier evil little minds can think of, all of these evil things have a range of well over 100 meters.
So now put yourself in this soldiers boots, out of the corner of your eye you spot this guy you bring your rifle up and peer through the scope, what you see is a vest with all kinds of wires coming out of it, You now holding up your hands telling him to stop, he advances, you fire a warning shot into the side of the road...

your memory flashes back a week when you seen the results of another bomber attempt, and what you see is soldiers laying on the ground screaming, because they have had limbs ripped off, theres blood every where, and in that mix is Afgan civilians women and children all screaming for help....2 seconds later you snap back to reality, your training kicks in you aim center of mass and squezze off 2 rounds, that man drops dead. And in a shorter time it took you to read this para, it's all over.

At anytime while you were reading this para did you have time to evalute whether he was mentally stable, why did he not heed the warnings, why did'nt the Afgan civilains stop him, they knew him, they knew what was going to happen...and you have the balls to pin the label of murderer on this soldier, Like i've said before you do not have the experiance nor the knowledge to judge this man for his actions. you where not there, your just some arm chair critic that knows it all, but in reality your just a fool spouting off foolishness because that is all you know..

Actually.. The motivations are even WORSE than that. Those type of people don't even CARE to know.

Their mind is made up and that's it.

Sad isn't it?

jbg · March 4, 2007

I just simply reported the news.Its not my fault Canadian soldiers have been acting like American soldiers and blowing away innocent people.

Who the h*** is this?

jbg · March 4, 2007

Because according to the forum rules:
http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/index.p...&CODE=01&HID=17

RESEARCH YOUR POST

If you are stating a fact, be prepared to back it up with some official sources (websites, links etc). It is also important to structure your post in a way that everyone can understand. That means writing complete sentences and paragraphs with the appropriate grammar. If for some reason, you enjoy writing long confusing sentences and paragraphs riddled with poor grammar and spelling mistakes, your post, and therefore your opinions, will likely be discarded. Therefore, it is in your best interest to make sure that your post includes sufficient sources and contains a well-researched and well-organized argument.

Then how come such words as labor, harbor, defense, etc. are repeatedly mis-spelled?

Wilber · March 4, 2007

Then how come such words as labor, harbor, defense, etc. are repeatedly mis-spelled?

Please stop.

madmax · March 4, 2007

Then how come such words as labor, harbor, defense, etc. are repeatedly mis-spelled?

Cheeky monkey.

jbg · March 4, 2007

Then how come such words as labor, harbor, defense, etc. are repeatedly mis-spelled?

Please stop.

Another person who can't tolerate either humor or humour.

Topaz · March 4, 2007

I see as Canadians, we are doing what the Americans do, accusing the other of being left or right. This war can't be won by the military or by the NATO and that is the opinion of a CIA Operative that was stationed and worked over there. The Taliban are rebuilding and OBL is stronger than ever and the only way to end this war is through Iran and Rice going there and talking peace in the region, as said by CIA operative. I understand why some soldiers shoot and kill innocent people, their nerves are on edge every second they trust no one and they can't. I'm sorry our government felt they had to STAY over there. I like to see Harper over shooting at the Taliban for one day and wonder if he would have a change of mind!! I also, feel if Harper gets a majority government, he will bring in a draft because the military needs 6000-7000 yearly to maintain what it does have and they aren't getting the numbers.

madmax · March 4, 2007

This war can't be won by the military or by the NATO and that is the opinion of a CIA Operative that was stationed and worked over there.

You won't find an assessment that say this war can be won militarily.

The Taliban are rebuilding and OBL is stronger than ever and the only way to end this war is through Iran and Rice going there and talking peace in the region, as said by CIA operative.

The Taliban are rebuilding. This is largely because the US decided to not consider Afghanistan a priority in security and funding and development and had a larger agenda to invade Iraq, which has completely backfired, and resulted in exactly what the critics said would occur. More people moving toward Islamic Fundamentalism and a strengthening of Al Qaida.

I think the operative is on glue if he thinks Iran has the key to peace in Afghanistan. Pakistan is the larger piece of the puzzle. Iran has a key to peace in Iraq, but I have no reason to believe that Iran is going change direction now that they have become a large player on the scene thanks to the US making a complete and utter disaster of Iraq.

I understand why some soldiers shoot and kill innocent people, their nerves are on edge every second they trust no one and they can't. I'm sorry our government felt they had to STAY over there.

Our soldiers have participated since early on. The new search and destroy missions were the work of the Liberal Government, and this was a bad idea. The fact that Harper extended this mission, will not result in the betterment of Afghanistan, but continue to put our soldiers in situations were individuals have to make decisions based on their safety first. The fact that the Taliban are stronger today suggests something has been deeply amiss because if anything, the Taliban should not be stronger.

I like to see Harper over shooting at the Taliban for one day and wonder if he would have a change of mind!!

He's too fat.

I also, feel if Harper gets a majority government, he will bring in a draft because the military needs 6000-7000 yearly to maintain what it does have and they aren't getting the numbers.

Your fears are unfounded. It will not happen. What you will see are large recruiting drives.

Army Guy · March 5, 2007

It's not just a case of soldiers nerves on edge, every precaution that can be taken is taken or already in place. it's hard to explain but a soldiers nerves are only part of the problem.

For instance on all Canadian convoys the last veh in the convoy has a 5 ft by 5 ft sign, it's day glow red, with large white letters, both in pushtin, and english, easily readable from 100 meters. It's a warning to all to remain 100 meters from convoy, failure to so will be met with deadily force...thats the first warning,

Second last veh drives in the center of the road way to prevent anyone from passing, effectivily blocking the road from the rear...warning number two,

next get to close, there is the rear gunner, or air sentry who is clearly visable, he thru hand signals is warning the drivers to stay back warning number three...

Next is a warning shot, the report from a machine gun is clearly audible even thru a cranked up version of jimmy hendrixs purple haze warning number four....

after all these warnings the air sentry will try and put a small burst into the rad, however Afgan road network is not like anything in North america, and this feat is extremily hard to do, as a small pot hole can mean the difference between hitting the rad or hitting the driver. That all being said our ROE's (rules of engagements does state that deadly force can be used...

When one of our vehs breaks down the road is blocked, No traffic in or out, a security cordone is put out to keep all foot and veh traffic away from the convoy, again the same warnings above are given...

That being said these warning proceedures have not changed in over 6 years, and are standard across Nato, if you drive in Afgan you'd have to be familar with them...

And still unexplainably the some Afgans still fail to heed all the warnings, and come charging up towards the convoy, just as a sucuide bomber would. It all comes down to if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it's a good chance it's a duck...top all this off with a soldiers will to live,and protect his comrads at all cost. your looking at a reciept for diaster.

Charles Anthony · March 6, 2007

Welcome to the forum, DOAP.

na85 · March 6, 2007

Funny how all these stories of soldier's killing innocent's is just brushed off, but yet a thread about Micheal Moore maybe owning stocks goes on for a year and a half

flame bait

Army Guy · March 6, 2007

dogonaporch:

Wonder if these people were behaving like ducks?

No, they were not ducks, and thier deaths are regrettable, But your story does not tell of all the details such as was the taliban fighting from the same house, or compound etc etc but you are making a big leap suggesting other wise, as you fill in the blanks, like some hot rod pilot failed to hit the right target, or just for shits and giggles decided to blow something up. Your also at the same time excusing the talibans actions and blaming NATO.

Also funny how a suicide bomber is called a coward when he kills civillians, but yet Nato forces( American) are forever dropping bombs on civillians from the safety of a few thousand feet in the air and considered to be brave

It's funny how someone can find fault with only one side, NATO soldiers are not perfect, in fact they are human and make mistakes just like you do.combine that with combat and murphys law and huge mistakes happen. they are investagated and if the pilots screwed up they will pay thru our justice system.

A suicide bomber knows his target, he walks among them, he looks them in the eyes before he press the button, he knows exactly who he is going to kill. he kills because he is making a statement, thats it...

And if all they did was attack military targets then there would be no problem, because we are prepared for that, but he attacks women and children and other inocent people that makes him a coward...

guyser · March 7, 2007

QUACK

Dont be so hard on yourself. With a little effort you could achieve the same IQ as one.

Canadian Blue · March 7, 2007

Reported.

Baylee, go get a life.

I find it funny how the people that throw out the most judgement of others, are the ones who are living in the most comfortable of situations. DOAP is a perfect example.

Canadian Blue · March 7, 2007

Where does it say that an American soldier was involved, I haven't read that anywhere yet?

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.ht...75e1de6&k=78754

What makes me sad is when people jump to conclusion's based on little or no evidence because they want to turn this into some kind of partisan attack.