Outlaw spanking?

[Hicksey]

HERE is a link to an article about a bill in the California State Legislature about banning spanking and making it punishable by fines and prison time.

My question to you is: Unless said punishment injures a child (done properly, corporal punishment does not), does the government belong in our homes like this? I say no. You?

[Drea]

Pussy parents.

That is why the youth culture of today is lost and drugged.

My generation of parents has coddled the children from birth to their 30's -- giving them every thing they ever wanted. And what is the result? Drugged baggy pants little gangsta wannabes and girls whoring around at age 10.

Can you imagine 30 years ago teens on a greyhound bus snearing and jeering at the seniors NOT being booted off? This happened just a couple months ago. The teens were really nasty to the seniors on the bus saying "you washed up wrinkled prune people, you will die soon and we will cheer!" and the like.

30 years ago the bus driver would have simply booted them off, middle of nowhere or not -- freeze to death you little ingrates! But NOOOO, the driver did nothing, none of the other passengers did anything either.

A parent needs to PARENT. That means doling out appropriate punishment which sometimes means a good spanking.

Why is there 10 and 11 year olds committing crimes? Because they KNOW that their parents, their teachers and the police can do absolutely nothing.

[geoffrey]

Drea,

Parents can be strict and not spank their children. This is a difficult issue, I don't really think physical violence should be condoned... but then again I'd like to smack some of today's kids around myself. Who knows. Is it up to the parents? To an extent, but I'd hate to see protection for parents when they take things far too far.

I'm an independant responsible 20-something and my parents didn't need to hit me to do that. There are many hooligan kids out there that had parents that spanked them regularly.

I don't agree that spanking is a required ingredient in raising children 'correctly'.

[ClearWest]

Can you imagine 30 years ago teens on a greyhound bus snearing and jeering at the seniors NOT being booted off? This happened just a couple months ago. The teens were really nasty to the seniors on the bus saying "you washed up wrinkled prune people, you will die soon and we will cheer!" and the like.

30 years ago the bus driver would have simply booted them off, middle of nowhere or not -- freeze to death you little ingrates! But NOOOO, the driver did nothing, none of the other passengers did anything either.

---

Why is there 10 and 11 year olds committing crimes? Because they KNOW that their parents, their teachers and the police can do absolutely nothing.

To me that screams that there is a problem with our legal system. People can be prosecuted for dealing strictly with a troubled ten year old, so they don't. That bus driver could probably be sued for sending troublemakers off of his bus, so he didn't.

While I agree with Geffrey's concerns, I think we need to change the laws to allow for a bit more leeway in situations like this. Otherwise criminals run our society under the protection of the law.

[Catchme]

This is a multi-faceted issue.

Pain and suffering short circuits developing minds.

Too many parents can go over board with abuse and spanking.

Then again, too many parents see thir children as angels when they are not.

Too many parents let their own intolerances be exposed to their children, those children in turn think it is ok to voice and act upon their own intolerances.

[guyser]

I would suspect that most spanking is done because the parent is mad. It seemed that way when I was a kid and got the licks from my dad. And I never recall him being calm about it either.

Was I affected? Who knows , and I doubt it.

Parenting , not friendship is part of the problem we have seen in the past couple of decades. (or vice versa?)

To make it criminal is a bit much because abuse is on the books everywhere. Abuse is abuse.

But spanking is IMO always done out of frustration , not to actually teach a kid something. The only punishment that ever hurt me was denial of sports, or the old sage " I am dissapointed in you" line that cut to the heart.

Spanking? Pfft....I knew it would be over in mere seconds.

[BubberMiley]

It seems the nanny state argument is only brought up when people disagree with the legislation. People who are happy to see the state invade people's homes looking for small-time grow-ops for some reason feel the state should mind their own business when it comes to most everything else. Perhaps it's just because they don't smoke pot but they beat their kids.

[Hicksey]

This is a multi-faceted issue.

Pain and suffering short circuits developing minds.

Too many parents can go over board with abuse and spanking.

Then again, too many parents see thir children as angels when they are not.

Too many parents let their own intolerances be exposed to their children, those children in turn think it is ok to voice and act upon their own intolerances.

Done properly, corporal punishment is not overly painful. Its about power, not pain. The objective is to make them fear the consequences of the action they are being punished for.

Only when parents do it improperly do we ever hear about corporal punishment.

BM: You are mistaking a conservative for a libertarian. Conservatives, though to a much lesser point than Liberals and NDP, also advocate letting the government into our everyday lives on issues we hold dear to us. Your beef, marijuana use, is against the law. The last I checked, though we are able to do just about any kinky thing the worst pervert can imagine, we did not have the right to break the law in our homes. Whether you believe marijuana use is right or wrong is another issue altogether which you are more than welcome to start a thread to discuss.

[BubberMiley]

But don't you think it should be illegal to get off by hitting your kids under the guise that it's good for them?

[Hicksey]

But don't you think it should be illegal to get off by hitting your kids under the guise that it's good for them?

I really hope you don't mean that the way it was typed. That idea is just disgusting.

I can count the number of times I have had to spank my 7 year old on one hand. Its not designed to be a repetitive punishment. If I have to spank my 7 year old he knows he's screwed up -- and he usually doesn't repeat the behavior. He has a couple of times and all I have to do is remind him of what I did to him the last time and he stops the behavior. I've never so much as left a mark on him. When I do spank him its to let him know who's boss and to provide a negative stimulus for him to associate with the bad behavior.

Like I said before ... done properly, corporal punishment works. When you get out of hand it is no longer corporal punishment, instead child abuse. The whole point is to produce a slap that will sting them for about 30 seconds and then go back to talking. If no inroad is made then you produce a second slap and then back to talking. It has to be clear the punishment is for the behavior in question. I have never had to go beyond a second slap. I NEVER do it when I am angry. My father used to do that and he always got out of hand. So I always take a short breather and let him stew before I go back to see him. That is usually enough to produce results because he knows if I have to come back and he doesn't acquiece, he'll get spanked.

Each kid is different. My 5 year old has only ever been spanked once. He's been conditioned to seeing his brother get it. He usually cops to whatever he did wrong and takes his punishment. In fact, he tries not to let me put him in the room to stew before he starts talking.

This may not work for other kids. Each is different -- for some it will be like a miracle elixir, for others nothing more than a bother. But to make it illegal and throw out the irresponsible statements about it not working is just ignorant. IMO that decision should lie with the primary care-giver.

Its amazing that an 8 month old fetus can effectively be murdered, but a 8 year old child cannot so much as be spanked. I know abortion is a whole different issue, but isn't it interesting that the more helpless of the two gets no protection and the one that can at least do something by telling someone gets blanket protection?

[DarkAngel_]

be assertive! be kind! be teaching and wise! these are the ways to teach, with positive empowerment, and a lack of objectivly tangible rewards, more so, to give rewards of fun, learning, and great meaning.

i'd only spank them if it was ruled 100% necessary, parents often use it too frequently, as an effective means to humble and quit them, i would use more harsh but reasonable punishment, like putting him through such 'wastes of time' and showing him motivational discipline, like hard pointless chores bent toward teaching him, like if he stole $50 i'd make him work 1 penny an hour scrubbing the front of the fishing stall! until it was repaid, it would never be clean and his or hers only brake would be lunch, dinner, and bed time.

if it was a very bad thing, and he knew better based on a strong lesson i thought he learned, then i would show him another way, with pep talks, pearls of wisdom, and actions of meaning, for all you people who don't do that... spanking is too easy and is only for toddlers lacking in mental discipline, Meaning the child was spoiled or shown a way to be selfish by example…

[crazymf]

Drea, 100% agreed.

Spanking is a useful tool. It can't be done out of anger. The rules must be clear before hand to the child as far as when a spank will happen. It represents a line that has to be crossed behavior wise.

I have yet to meet a 2 year old kid who can be reasoned with.

How many kids do you know that have ever touched a hot stove......twice.

[blackascoal]

I thank the heavens for each and every spanking my parents gave me.

I learned consequence and discipline at home not in the streets of Detroit or prison.

The most troubling thing about this law is that society doesn't really care about these children. We talk a good game but try getting a runaway or throwaway teen some help and you'll find out that it's just talk.

There are a lot of kids growing up in tough neighborhoods with danger all around them and their parents are the only buffer between them and the danger. If spanking is required then the parents should be the ones to make that decision, not some politician far removed from that child's life. Abuse is an entirely different issue and shouldn't be confused with discipline.

Many of those who argue that children shouldn't be spanked are drugging their own. American children are being drugged at an astronomical rate, often with Ritalin, a drug for a disease that doesn't exist. ADHD (Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) and of which it is said that it is, "Specific etiology of this syndrome is unknown, and there is no single diagnostic test. Adequate diagnosis requires the use not only of medical but of special psychological, educational and social resources."

These drugs are often nothing more than a short-cut to parenting.

I'll take the supposed long-term effects of spanking in raising my children compared to this ...

"Ritalin should not be used in children under 6 years of age, since safety and efficacy in this age group have not been established. Clinical experience suggests that in psychotic children, administration of Ritalin may exacerbate symptoms of behavior disturbance and thought disorder. Long-term effects of Ritalin in children have not been well established."

Additionally, children aren't stupid. Talk to teachers and you'll find that many of their students tell them and their parents that if you hit me, or do something I don't like, I'll call the police.

[Riverwind]

Parents can be strict and not spank their children. This is a difficult issue, I don't really think physical violence should be condoned... but then again I'd like to smack some of today's kids around myself.

I used to think spanking was justified until I became a parent and discovered that there are many different ways to discipline a child that do not include spanking. So I come to the conclusion that spanking should not be considered an acceptable punishment because it is so hard to disguish between 'reasonable' force and abuse.

OTH: I don't think this is an issue that can be solved with a legal hammer. I would rather see the money spent on education.

[Figleaf]

I can count the number of times I have had to spank my 7 year old on one hand.

And yet...

My 5 year old ... He's been conditioned to seeing his brother get it.

Is there an inconsistency here?

[M.Dancer]

A proposed new law would make it illegal for them, too, if the child is 3 years old or younger.

That doesn't seem unreasonable. A 2 year old barely understands right from wrong...and spanking a kid while they are having a tantrum is a waste of time.

Now my 7 year old, she knows when she is misbehaving and she knows that the threat of a spanking is real.......she will mind her self if the threat is raised....my 2 1/2 year old, you could tell him he's about to be spanked if he continues to climb the china cabinet...he doesnt know, to him you might as well be offering him some carabiners and repelling rope......

[Elder]

I'm not entirely sure on this topic. My Father spanked me. Somewhere around my parents house is a 4 foot wooden plank with all of our autographs carved into it and a bullsey drawn onto the business end of it. I never felt abused nor do I resent my father doing it. I was a kid who needed occasional correction. I learned some valued lessons at the end of that board. On the other hand, I noticed that as time went on, my Father used it less and less. I don't think he ever touches that board anymore, and he still has 8 kids at home, who, while they are for the most part well mannered, still need occasional correction. I should probably ask my Dad why he stopped. If he found a better way, then it would be worth knowing. Or perhaps he felt the need to use a punishment that would not tempt his anger. I have no kids of my own now, so I have no personal experience with spanking other than being on the recieving end, and based off that experience alone, I have no problem with the practice.

[Black Dog]

I have yet to meet a 2 year old kid who can be reasoned with.

So how do you expect them to figure out what behaviours will result in a spanking?

How many kids do you know that have ever touched a hot stove......twice.

Yet I'm sure most kid sthat get spanked get spanked more than once: if it worked, then you wouldn't need to do it more than once, no?

[ClearWest]

I have yet to meet a 2 year old kid who can be reasoned with.

So how do you expect them to figure out what behaviours will result in a spanking?

By seeing the instant negative effect of his/her actions. We train pets the same way, and it's why we can keep them as pets and not have to defend ourselves against them in the wild.

How many kids do you know that have ever touched a hot stove......twice.

Yet I'm sure most kid sthat get spanked get spanked more than once: if it worked, then you wouldn't need to do it more than once, no?

Some criminals are repeat-offenders, others learn more quickly.

[Black Dog]

By seeing the instant negative effect of his/her actions. We train pets the same way, and it's why we can keep them as pets and not have to defend ourselves against them in the wild.

Would you rub your kids' face in their own feces to stop them from soiling themselves?

[Hicksey]

I can count the number of times I have had to spank my 7 year old on one hand.

And yet...

My 5 year old ... He's been conditioned to seeing his brother get it.

Is there an inconsistency here?

How so? The 5 year old has seen what happens when things escalate to that level and the response from his brother and knows that he doesn't want that fate to befall him as well.

Done right, corporal punishment is about fear and respect. Parents do get out of hand, we all know that. And we have laws to take care of them. There is no need to outlaw spanking.

[geoffrey]

By seeing the instant negative effect of his/her actions. We train pets the same way, and it's why we can keep them as pets and not have to defend ourselves against them in the wild.

Would you rub your kids' face in their own feces to stop them from soiling themselves?

True. We aren't animals. And there is really no requirement of spanking to raise good children... there are lots of people that are just fine without it.

Being said, I'm really hesitent to tell people how to raise their children.

[ClearWest]

By seeing the instant negative effect of his/her actions. We train pets the same way, and it's why we can keep them as pets and not have to defend ourselves against them in the wild.

Would you rub your kids' face in their own feces to stop them from soiling themselves?

Of course not. I'm guessing that you're on the other extreme? I don't know if you have children but it would be interesting to hear what your policy is and what the result is.

[geoffrey]

Of course not. I'm guessing that you're on the other extreme? I don't know if you have children but it would be interesting to hear what your policy is and what the result is.

I don't have children, but I'm not too far beyond my teenage years!

My parents didn't spank me and I think I'd be generally regarded as a law abiding, highy respectful of others, type of person.

Like I said, it's obviously not a neccessary ingredient in raising kids. I'm sure it's not an absolute evil either, just different strokes for different folks?

My parents when I in the 3-10 range would simply remove privledges on the spot. I talked back, I lost TV for a month. The punishments were harsh, but not physically violent. I eventually learned not to talk back as I missed Seaseme Street. Once I was in my early teens, the rule was every minute late was a day grounded. I was late a few times and that was all.

After about 13, I never had an issue with my parents, never was grounded, never broke the rules, and the rules were strict (aren't they always to a teen?). At 17 they were allowing me to go party, knowing that I was drinking, on their assumption of my responsibility (and I never really broke that sense of responsibility). At 18, even though I lived at home for a little bit after that, I could do typically whatever I wanted.

The trust with my parents was always 100%, I always let them know where I was going, even if it was a party or something slightly questionable, and they trusted me to make the right decisions and if I did make a mistake, to accept the responsibility that come with.

The quote from my mom is probably the most telling of their parenting style, "do what you think is right, but don't expect us to bail you out of jail." I'm sure they would have followed through on that too.

Now I'm a typical good conservative responsibile adult. So ya. You don't need to hit a kid to send a message IMO.

I think that its dangerous to tell a child that the consequence of an poor action is physical violence. It may degrade their risk tolerance in the future IMO, always fearing that someone is going to hit them if they screw up. Kids need to make mistakes, and deal with their own consequnces. Physical violence is never a real world consequence (well perhaps if you get lippy in a bar) so I don't think it's a great idea. If Bobby smashes a window with his slingshot, you don't hit him, you send him to confess to the neighbour and work off the cost of the window.

[Charles Anthony]

I have to play the devil's advocate to both sides. There are a few short sighted comments going all over the place.

By seeing the instant negative effect of his/her actions. We train pets the same way, and it's why we can keep them as pets and not have to defend ourselves against them in the wild.

Not really. Children are first and foremost selfish. There is also a good chance that the child identifies with "might equals right" as being the lesson to learn.

Would you rub your kids' face in their own feces to stop them from soiling themselves?

That rhetorical question is foolish and displays a complete lack of knowledge of how dogs are effectively trained. One of my pet peeves is dog owners who poorly train (if at all) their dogs.

Does your dog come back without hesitation every time you call? (... or maybe I am asking the wrong "person"... maybe it is the other way around.... )

I think that its dangerous to tell a child that the consequence of an poor action is physical violence.

I agree.

If Bobby smashes a window with his slingshot, you don't hit him, you send him to confess to the neighbour and work off the cost of the window.

--- a negotiated settlement. Interesting form of justice. Makes sense to me.

However, what if Bobby smashes the neighbor's face with a slingshot?