Outlaw spanking?

[margrace]

One of the problems with the basic argument here is that all children are different. If I was raised in a loving happy home and my husband was raised in an abusive home our take on raising children might be a lot different. Especially if you add the ADD factor. It is hard to recognize this in young children.

A child with this syndrome, from my observation, one grandchild with it, does not have the ability to think before he/she acts. They do and then they are sorry. Spanking this child or even using the taking away of privileges does not work.

A child with low self esteem will follow the pack, a child with very agressive tendencys will lead the pack. It all comes back to how and what the parents are. ADD is obviously inherited and there is little that can be done about it. One of my daughters was dyslexic, it too was inherited. She rose above it because she also had the drive to bypass it.

Making asumptions on the general public is a very dangerous thing, we do it far too much, especially in how we educate our children.

It has always amused me that peole who never had any children to raise appear to be the best authorities on it.

[Charles Anthony]

ADD is obviously inherited and there is little that can be done about it.

Yeah, boring parents breed bored children.

[Black Dog]

Of course not. I'm guessing that you're on the other extreme? I don't know if you have children but it would be interesting to hear what your policy is and what the result is.

I don't have kids, nor do I plan to. But I know this much: when I was a kid, the handful of time I was spanked didn't teach me about responsibility for my actions. What it did teach me was to resent the person spanking me and that violence was an acceptable solution to problems, provided you were strong enough.

Overall, I'm in agreement with what geoffery says here.

That rhetorical question is foolish and displays a complete lack of knowledge of how dogs are effectively trained. One of my pet peeves is dog owners who poorly train (if at all) their dogs.

Cna you think of any effective dog training methods that would work on children?

[Charles Anthony]

Cna you think of any effective dog training methods that would work on children?

Yes: violence begets violence.

All kidding aside, I think we are in agreement on the corporal punishment issue.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

Cna you think of any effective dog training methods that would work on children?

Since I work with dogs, I find this question interesting. 'Positive reinforcement' (praising good behaviour so it, rather than bad behaviour, gets repeated) is the preferred method of dog training these days. It can be taken to silly extremes, mind you, and doesn't address 'consequences for bad behaviour'. I think that there needs to be an equal, but fair, mix. Punishment does not have to mean beating, it can be as simple as a 'time out'.

[guyser]

Cna you think of any effective dog training methods that would work on children?

Well sure. Both the kids and the dog can retrieve the mail. Working on the kid to stop slobbering on the mail. The dog stopped that easier than the kid.

And they both learned sit pretty early. The treats are a little hard on the kids teeth though.

[Charles Anthony]

Since I work with dogs, I find this question interesting. 'Positive reinforcement' (praising good behaviour so it, rather than bad behaviour, gets repeated) is the preferred method of dog training these days.

Thankfully! A responsible dog owner!

Frighteningly, there are still trainers who advocate the old-fashioned pulling-on-the-leash or punitive techniques.

It can be taken to silly extremes, mind you, and doesn't address 'consequences for bad behaviour'. I think that there needs to be an equal, but fair, mix. Punishment does not have to mean beating, it can be as simple as a 'time out'.

I disagree with your suggestions.

1) extrapolating the canine techniques to child rearing is not wise

and

2) there should be no mix, neither for dogs nor for children, but for different reasons.

The modern "recognize and immediate reward" strategy works for dogs primarily because of their limited level of intelligence and attention span. For both a "time out" and corporal punishment, the dog's learning will depend exclusively on minimizing the time delay between the targeted behavior (good or bad) and the consequence (reward or punishment). If the time delay is too great, the learning will not happen at best. At worst, the dog will be confused. The dog can only make a cognitive connection if the reward/punishment immediately follows the behavior. If corporal punishment is the consequence, the dog learns to accept and constantly fear confused violence. An aggressive dog is bred.

Children are smarter than dogs but not smart enough. Thus, the effect of punishment will be more varied. A child will likely respond to a corporal punishment by learning violence is a means to an end -- not as a consequence to a bad behavior. If the child does not believe the punisher is right, a child will likely respond to a "time out" by getting frustrated and distrustful of authority. If a parent is ever mistaken or if the child is uncertain of the bad behavior, both corporal punishment and "time out" are dangerous.

WARNING: The following may sound hokey or green-tea drinking or airy-fairy socialist, but it is true and I am right.

The best way of dealing with a child's bad behavior is easier said than done: start early, consistently pay attention to the child (even if you have no idea what they are trying to show you, act like you do) and show them an alternative to the bad behavior. [baby-sitting and day-caring and early-learning and schooling are obvious obstacles. Choose your poison.]

Instead of saying "No! Do not .....", one should say "I want you to do this instead of.... because.... etc."

Instead of grabbing something from a child's hand, one should offer a different object. Unless the child has the ability to speak, wait until the child willingly puts down the first object and takes the more attractive/interesting second object. [This is certainly not easy to do if you do not know what interests your child.]

Unfortunately, starting too late can be an insurmountable task. Not all dysfunctional behaviors can be corrected. You have about a dozen years to create and unleash your own monster. Children eventually develop free-will.

[guyser]

Well put Charles.

You thoughts on the number of years would be, IMO, a little off. I would think by the time a child is 6-8 you must have instilled most of any teachings to be truly succesful.

The rest is consistent follow up.

[margrace]

ADD is obviously inherited and there is little that can be done about it.

Yeah, boring parents breed bored children.

Once again we attack the poster, why, because that poster may be right and we don't want to admit it. Oh by the way the boring parents of the boring child, well one is a veterinary surgeon and the other a Univercity professor. Really boring aye.

[geoffrey]

--- a negotiated settlement. Interesting form of justice. Makes sense to me.

However, what if Bobby smashes the neighbor's face with a slingshot?

Permenantly? Well, I really don't know. I can't answer that.

I have no idea what I'd do with Bobby if he permenantly disfigured my neighbour, but I really can promise you that gently spanking him isn't going to do anything at all.

Cna you think of any effective dog training methods that would work on children?

Yes: violence begets violence.

All kidding aside, I think we are in agreement on the corporal punishment issue.

CA in favour of an government enforced social policy??! I never thought I'd see the day. I was more expecting a "kids get lots in allowance, so they can hire a bunch of goons to fight back" type solution (only kidding).

[Charles Anthony]

CA in favour of an government enforced social policy??! I never thought I'd see the day.

No. I am not in favor of the government enforcing the policy. I object to corporal punishment. Put it this way: I would not let somebody who believes in corporal punishment take care of my kids when I was away. Clearly, BadDog is in agreement with me on that. However, I must commend you on your recommendation.

I was more expecting a "kids get lots in allowance, so they can hire a bunch of goons to fight back" type solution (only kidding).

I like that idea! I wish I had thought of it myself!

Give my head a shake: kids can not even put there socks away or put on a condom. Why would I trust them with security forces??!!??

Once again we attack the poster, why, because that poster may be right and we don't want to admit it.

No. I was attacking the parents of the ADD child. I have seen several parents who use the excuse that their child has ADD and all of those parents have one thing in common: they do not pay attention to their child. Their careers are more important. The baby-sitting is more important. They are soooooooo concerned about the "early-learning program" at the DAY-CARE center. The junk they buy for their kids is more important. The after-school sports are more important. The skiing trip is more important. The vacation in Disney-land is more important. I believe the ADD diagnosis is an excuse.

Oh by the way the boring parents of the boring child, well one is a veterinary surgeon and the other a Univercity professor. Really boring aye.

Not only do they sound extremely exciting but that sort of misplaced pride sounds familiar.

Ever since we were born, my parents enjoyed bragging around town about how educated and successful their kids are. My parents are more proud of themselves for having produced successful kids than they are about the success or the education of their kids. If my parents believed hockey was a key to success, they would be violent hockey-parents frantically jumping on the ice with every mis-call and neurotically embarrassing their kids.

[margrace]

[

Once again we attack the poster, why, because that poster may be right and we don't want to admit it.

No. I was attacking the parents of the ADD child. I have seen several parents who use the excuse that their child has ADD and all of those parents have one thing in common: they do not pay attention to their child. Their careers are more important. The baby-sitting is more important. They are soooooooo concerned about the "early-learning program" at the DAY-CARE center. The junk they buy for their kids is more important. The after-school sports are more important. The skiing trip is more important. The vacation in Disney-land is more important. I believe the ADD diagnosis is an excuse.

Oh by the way the boring parents of the boring child, well one is a veterinary surgeon and the other a Univercity professor. Really boring aye.

Not only do they sound extremely exciting but that sort of misplaced pride sounds familiar.

Ever since we were born, my parents enjoyed bragging around town about how educated and successful their kids are. My parents are more proud of themselves for having produced successful kids than they are about the success or the education of their kids. If my parents believed hockey was a key to success, they would be violent hockey-parents frantically jumping on the ice with every mis-call and neurotically embarrassing their kids.

So you have no personal experience of an ADD child only hearsay. While the one parent did nothing for my Grandchild his mother did very much. She tried every method and idea there was. This Boy is a wonderful kid but he just has no basic barriers. What he wants at that exact moment is what he will try to get and then think about it afterwards. He is basically very sorry afterwards.

Sounds as if you are very angry at your parents. ADD does not mean that kids can not be achievers. This boys grandfather had to stay in public school til he was 16 because he could not learn to read. However in his short lifetime he managed to set up his own business. When he had to get certificates for jobs I read the stuff to him and he passed the tests verbally. Probably in our weird school ideas today this would not be allowed.

In my daughters idea, these children should not be molly codled, they have to face the world. But corparal punishment did absolutely nothing for this child, makeing his sit on a chair and consider his actions really did more for him.

When you are actually faced with this situation get back to me about it. Sorry but it sounds as if you had very, as you say neurotically embarrassing parents. What your child becomes he becomes and I have been proud of the one's who rose above advercity and achieved.

[Charles Anthony]

So you have no personal experience of an ADD child only hearsay.

Correct and I am skeptical of the diagnosis.

Likewise, I have no experience with witchdoctors. Should I give credence to a diganosis of a witchdoctor?

Come to think of it, I have no experience with people who claim to be abducted and subject to caudal experimentation by aliens either.

Treating a child (except for wards of the state) is exceedingly difficult because the parent makes the decisions. The parent has the right to accept and refuse treatment on behalf of the child.

First and foremost, pediatricians and ADD-diagnosticians are providing a service to a parent. They are treating a young-person-who-is-a-result-of-an-adult's-parenting and the service must cater to the parent. An ADD diagnosis is a convenient and easy pill for a parent to swallow.

Years ago, we used to treat peptic ulcers by cutting out the stomach. You must remember that. Now, we treat them with common antibiotics. At some point, there was vehement disagreement in the medical community on the diagnosis and treatment of peptic ulcers. Early defenders of the simple antibiotic therapy were fined, had their licenses revoked, denied funding and denied permission to do research.

Physicians and the medical community are fallible.

[margrace]

So how many children and grandchildren do you have. As I said before it alway fascinated me how authoritative people who had no children could be.

[guyser]

So how many children and grandchildren do you have. As I said before it alway fascinated me how authoritative people who had no children could be.

I dont have grandchildren margrace . but I too think , and in conversation with many teachers, feel that ADD and ADHD are far over diagnosed.

I will make no comment on your situation, as you have explained it succinctly, however it does seem to many that it is a convenient excuse.

[Charles Anthony]

As I said before it alway fascinated me how authoritative people who had no children could be.

Well, you certainly got me there.

just to add some salt, I once had a dog but he ran away. Maybe I loved him too much.

You do not remember peptic ulcer surgery, do you?

[margrace]

So how many children and grandchildren do you have. As I said before it alway fascinated me how authoritative people who had no children could be.

I dont have grandchildren margrace . but I too think , and in conversation with many teachers, feel that ADD and ADHD are far over diagnosed.

I will make no comment on your situation, as you have explained it succinctly, however it does seem to many that it is a convenient excuse.

The schools made a judgment on my grandson, none of the public schools would have hime. She had to pay for private school and then only the ones that catered to his problems. And yes my daughter would agree that children who are normally rambunctius, as a lot of boys are, are far too often given Ridalin. All these kids need is more attention, And smaller classes.

[Hicksey]

Here's an idea. We'll all surrender our children to the government and let them raise them, since they know so much better how to raise them than we do.

Its simple. Unless the government is with them every day, they don't know the personality of the child, what is or is not an effective means of punishment of the child and ability of each child to comprehend the consequence. To restrict the rest of us because a few people have done it wrong is ridiculous. We need every tool available to us to make this happen. Raising a child is hard enough with all the crap society throws at them and us, taking disciplinary options away from us doesn't make sense.

I was beaten as a child. I have direct knowledge of what it is like to be on the wrong end of that. That's also why I do what I do today. I have learned from the mistakes of my father. When I became a father I knew two things: (1) I would never beat my children as my father did me, and (2) that the talking-tos that my mother gave didn't work either because I viewed it as a joke. So I did a little research on it and came to where I am. I still do the talking because though it was not effective immediately, later on I have come to remember and benefit from many of those lessons.

[Charles Anthony]

Parents who use corporal punishment should be wary of their neighbors who choose to stop it.

As a person who uses excessive sarcasm myself, I can say that it is the worst way to convey a message in writing -- unfortunately, I think I am addicted. It is analogous to a stand-up comedian telling an inside joke. With that in mind, this statement:

Unless the government is with them every day, they don't know the personality of the child, what is or is not an effective means of punishment of the child and ability of each child to comprehend the consequence.

is most indicative to me of your message and I will comment upon it. If I am wrong in my assumption, please correct me. Here I go.

I am fine with 100% elimination of the State from how a person raises or abuses a child, if that is what you want. As a result, I am very comfortable with the following:

1) between a child and his parent, the child deserves the benefit of the doubt of being innocent

2) a child has the right to self defense -- like anybody else

3) a good samaritan has the right to come to the aid of a child

Therefore, if somebody is suspected of abusing/disciplining a child, a passerby has my blessing to kick down the door and stop it on behalf of the child. I do not care who is right or wrong. Corporal punishment of a child is sooooooo exceedingly obscene, I do not care about due process. I care more about self-defense of a child.

To me, it is the same as walking down the street and seeing a big man beating up a helpless small man. I do not care about the issue which led to the altercation. The violence should be stopped.

[dances with fishes]

A person walks around and around,

looking for truth, in a world of lies.

Trying to over come them, before he dies.

So he doesn't have to, come back to task.

To fix the mistakes, he made in the past.

Knowing the truth each time we are born.

It's not very long before, the truth is torn

from within your heart,and replaced with hate

and fear.

With this, the evil feeds and grows.

Until no one knows, who runs the show.

Only when the whole world,is on the same page.

Will the children start to behave.

Each generation comes to help us out.

All we do is drug em up,and shout.

You don't know what you are talking about.

So they rebel,or retreat,deep inside.

Looking for somewhere safe to hide,

Then the pain comes in like a flood.

They think the only way to release it,

Is through their "Own Blood"

How many children must suffer and die,

for knowing the truth,and not believing the lies.

The hearts of the fathers MUST return to the children,

before it's to late!!

Lets put an end to the "PERPETUAL HATE"

There is a lot of talk about the children acting spoiled and don't care.Well the children are a

reflection of what they see their parents and society doing.Every little lie act of anger, jealousy,

and love is picked up by the child,and then they act the same,only they do not understand

why or when to act, nobody teaches them control. We as so called adults can not control our

own emotions.Instead the child gets drugged up or put down for acting the way they have been taught!!

The government say's its okay, to go to someone elses country to kill and to hate! but you can not do it hear