Clerics at Mosques in England

[sharkman]

Here's something I didn't expect to see, Muslim preachers in England coming out against the Taliban, and the practice of suicide bombing. It would be nice to see this actually happen and have peace loving Muslim leaders encouraging their people to love those that hate and be examples that Allah could show favour on.GuardianUK

[Charles Anthony]

What is this?? A new anti-muslim rant?

I know a lot of muslims. I work with muslims everyday. I put my life in the hands of muslims and muslims put their lives in my hands everyday. I do not understand your paranoia.

[kimmy]

I think it's an anti-fundamentalist rant, Chuck.

Here in Canada, most Muslims are accepting of the fact that this is a multi-cultural society, and have no difficulties working alongside the rest of us. But there are still some who aren't. And unfortunately, some of those include Saudi-trained clerics who use their platform to spread a message that's incompatible with the values of tolerance and acceptance.

If a priest of some Christian denomination, or any other faith for that matter, were caught making the sort of statements found in the Guardian article, they'd have a lot to answer for, and so I don't see why people have lowered expectations when it comes to Muslims.

The proper way to respond to idiocy in our midst is not to pretend it doesn't exist, but to address it. And the proper way for Muslims to deal with this is not to deny it, but to denounce it, as Canadian Muslims did when they gave verbal beat-downs to Sheikh Younus Kathrada and El Masry, or as Australian Muslims did when they denounced that guy who compared western women to uncovered pieces of meat.

-k

[Charles Anthony]

I am just getting tired of the boogey-man angle it takes, myKim. I am not afraid of a person promoting wacky or criminal behavior out in the open.

If a priest of some Christian denomination, or any other faith for that matter, were caught making the sort of statements found in the Guardian article, they'd have a lot to answer for, and so I don't see why people have lowered expectations when it comes to Muslims.

Whatever happened to the separation of church and state? Should it only go one way?

The proper way to respond to idiocy in our midst is not to pretend it doesn't exist, but to address it.

How am I supposed to address it? Should I tell all of the muslims I know that they had better stay in line?

Hey! I have a great idea! We should do what the commies do: send spies into churches with mini-cameras or audio recorders hidden on the end of our umbrellas and charge clerics with promoting hate and violence!

[kimmy]

I am just getting tired of the boogey-man angle it takes, myKim. I am not afraid of a person promoting wacky or criminal behavior out in the open.

It's not out in the open. The general public can't just go sit in a mosque and check things out. The preaching is often in Arabic, so it's not like the general public could check things out even if they were inclined.

It's not out in the open until somebody puts it out in the open it, as Channel 4 did. If it's the "out in the open" aspect that puts you at ease, then you should be thanking Channel 4, and the Guardian, and Sharkman.

If a priest of some Christian denomination, or any other faith for that matter, were caught making the sort of statements found in the Guardian article, they'd have a lot to answer for, and so I don't see why people have lowered expectations when it comes to Muslims.

Whatever happened to the separation of church and state? Should it only go one way?

Church and state? That's a bit of a non-sequitur, isn't it? I don't understand what you're trying to say.

When I said "have a lot to answer for," I meant in terms of bad publicity, not in criminal charges, if that's what you're getting at. They can say whatever they want, but people will view their statements accordingly.

The proper way to respond to idiocy in our midst is not to pretend it doesn't exist, but to address it.

How am I supposed to address it? Should I tell all of the muslims I know that they had better stay in line?

You personally? I don't particularly expect you personally to do anything, but I do take issue with criticizing Channel 4 for doing this investigation, and of the Guardian for reporting on it, and of Sharkman for making mention of it here.

Publicizing the statements of these clerics, and voicing our opinions of it, is all that is needed. Bad publicity prompts the mainstream Muslim community to action, and vocal condemnation from the mainstream Muslim community is a far more credible response to the situation than "whitey" could muster.

It's a pattern we've seen before: the mainstream Muslim community takes action *after* the public at large hears about these statements.

Hey! I have a great idea! We should do what the commies do: send spies into churches with mini-cameras or audio recorders hidden on the end of our umbrellas and charge clerics with promoting hate and violence!

You tire of the "boogeyman" aspect of it, and I tire of this sort of shrieking hysteria in response. "It's a witchhunt!" says the man in the article. "It's a boogeyman," says Charles. It seems to me that a key aspect of the "witchhunt" or "boogeyman" analogy is that there's no such thing as a witch or a boogeyman. Well, if radical clerics are "boogeymen" and the investigation is a "witchhunt", well Surprise! They found witches and boogeymen galore! Lots of 'em!

I didn't read any mention of criminal charges in the article. If it were Canada, I'm not sure anything mentioned in the article could lead to criminal charges. But that's not really the issue. I don't advocate criminal charges against these clerics. I just advocate that they be exposed, and that their own community denounce them. That's more effective than anything the law could do.

-k

[Charles Anthony]

It's not out in the open. The general public can't just go sit in a mosque and check things out. The preaching is often in Arabic, so it's not like the general public could check things out even if they were inclined.

Not entirely. I will only give you one of those -- or maybe one and a half.

I do not understand Arabic -- there is one.

I have been in a mosque during prayer time but without making an assumption of what sex you are, I will say there is a fifty percent chance that you would be forbidden -- there is a half.

I don't advocate criminal charges against these clerics. I just advocate that they be exposed, and that their own community denounce them. That's more effective than anything the law could do.

I can live with that.

I maintain the Opening Post shows bias and generalizes across all muslim clerics. Given the context that we live in a world filled with peaceful muslims, I suggest that the bias is also insulting and thus a rant.

[kimmy]

The fact that most Canadians (or Americans, or Britons, or Australians) don't speak Arabic, combined with the fact that many Muslims are undoubtedly afraid to speak out against these clerics for fear of being ostracized by their own communities or fear of worsening the general public's view of their community, gives these rogue clerics a veil of secrecy under which to spread their views.

For an example, you could look at Vancouver's Younus Kathrada, whose rants-- including the "pigs and apes" one that got him coast-to-coast press a couple of years ago-- were posted on his mosque's website, available for anybody in the world to download. But nobody in Canada actually heard about it until one of Kathrada's followers got his ass shot up waging jihad in Chechnya and mainstream media started taking some interest in Kathrada. Or, mentioned in the article, the DVDs in the mosque bookstore, or the secret video of the ranting. This stuff might be theoretically "out in the open", but in practice, it's not. Not unless somebody makes a special effort to bring it to the public's attention.

-k

[Charles Anthony]

Not being able to speak Arabic is a feeble argument.

combined with the fact that many Muslims are undoubtedly afraid to speak out against these clerics for fear of being ostracized by their own communities or fear of worsening the general public's view of their community,

Where did you get that idea?

For an example, you could look at Vancouver's Younus Kathrada, whose rants-- including the "pigs and apes" one that got him coast-to-coast press a couple of years ago--

-- and I could look at the rants in tons of other churches of other faiths.

Should we start boogeymanizing Fred Phelps now? No. We laugh at him despite the fact that he advocates violence.

I know of Christians who are so socially inept that they feel it is wrong to associate with people who are not members of their church. I do not mean other Christians but rather people who are not their own Reformed-Baptist-Methodist-Catholic-Presbyterian-Calvinist-ReBorn-Whatever subdivision of Christianity. They truly believe that their subdivision is the only right one and all others are evil incarnations of Satan. The extent at which they permit conversing with others (Christian or otherwise) in any social context is primarily to bring them into the fold. You would not believe how many people they believe should be violently killed in the name of God. I know a woman who was forced to sit at the back of her church because she was pregnant and unwed.

It is old-fashioned backward sine-Folie to single out one or two muslim clerics. I will repeat: I know tons of muslims and they all seem to be like any other people who are raised in traditionally strict households or religions. They are the same and they aspire to the American Dream like we do.

[August1991]

I'm with Kimmy on this issue. A Canadian news organization should undertake the same kind of research as the UK's Channel 4 did. Until then, we don't really know who is right.

I noticed this at the end of the Observer article:

In a statement to Channel 4, Lord Ahmed, the convener of the government's Preventing Extremism taskforce, said he was worried about the programme's consequences: 'While I appreciate that exaggerated opinions make good TV, they do not make for good community relations.'

A spokesman for Green Lane mosque said Islam does not denigrate women and that the instruction to hit a child was merely a smack. He accused C4 of intensifying the 'witch-hunt' against Muslims.

Merely a smack?

[kimmy]

Not being able to speak Arabic is a feeble argument.

Why is it feeble? Do you speak Arabic? How many Canadians outside the Muslim community speak Arabic? We don't really hear about anything that's said in Arabic unless someone volunteers the information. And volunteers aren't always very forthcoming.

combined with the fact that many Muslims are undoubtedly afraid to speak out against these clerics for fear of being ostracized by their own communities or fear of worsening the general public's view of their community,

Where did you get that idea?

Many first-generation Canadian Muslims rely on their fellow Muslims for community, and feel untrusted by and untrusting of Canadians outside of their communities, and as a result fear being shunned or rejected by the Muslim community. And many first-generation Canadian Muslims are from countries and cultures where questioning their imam was unthinkable and intolerable.

This claim was made over and over by progressives within the Muslim community as a reason why Sharia tribunals should not be given legal status in Ontario, and if it applied to that situation, it certainly applies to this one as well.

Muslims who are more established in Canada would undoubtedly be more willing to speak out, but then again, Muslims who are more established in Canada would be less likely to be in a dingy mosque listening to some Saudi nut-job in the first place.

For an example, you could look at Vancouver's Younus Kathrada, whose rants-- including the "pigs and apes" one that got him coast-to-coast press a couple of years ago--

-- and I could look at the rants in tons of other churches of other faiths.

Should we start boogeymanizing Fred Phelps now? No. We laugh at him despite the fact that he advocates violence.

Ok, so let's see these hard-line clerics exposed so that we can ridicule them just like Phelps.

It is old-fashioned backward sine-Folie to single out one or two muslim clerics. I will repeat: I know tons of muslims and they all seem to be like any other people who are raised in traditionally strict households or religions. They are the same and they aspire to the American Dream like we do.

Sure, and the Muslims that I have known are much the same. By and large I think they are pretty normal people, and I don't think the radical clerics are representative of the community.

However, there are differences between Fred Phelps and Sheikh Feiz et al. Phelps and his clan live at a walled compound in the middle of nowhere, while these clerics have the podium in mosques in the biggest cities in their respective countries. Fred Phelps has very little opportunity for converts outside of his own degenerate, inbred family, while these clerics have access to angry, frustrated young men who feel persecuted and targetted by society at large and are open to radical ideas.

-k

[Charles Anthony]

Merely a smack?

I will not defend corporal punishment however, many adults (of all races and creeds) do. What is your point?

I know an old man who admits to being a trouble-maker in school and was hit on the head by a nun-teacher with a crucifix/staff-thingie. Big deal.

Why is it feeble? Do you speak Arabic?

No, I do not speak Arabic. Big deal.

The argument is feeble because radical Muslims are not the only people who speak Arabic. Our commie-spy strategy can still work. We will just have to outsource leg-work.

Many first-generation Canadian Muslims rely on their fellow Muslims for community,

The end.

Give them American television and pop music and a taste of what The Almighty Dollar can do (and how easy it is to earn) and the second-generation Canadian Muslims are on track.

Ok, so let's see these hard-line clerics exposed so that we can ridicule them just like Phelps.

Agreed. I will not dispute that Fred Phelps has much less influence than big city Muslim clerics.

I insist that within a few generations, the radical-anti-West Muslim clerics will see their congregations dwindle and the problem will solve itself.

[sharkman]

I don't think that if you leave religious based hatred alone, it will disappear by itself. Hatred modeled by the parents only gets instilled in the children, just like racism or physical abuse does.

This is obviously a touchy subject that many people would rather ignore and hope it goes away. France is reaping the consequences of that kind of head in the sand approach.

[kimmy]

Why is it feeble? Do you speak Arabic?

No, I do not speak Arabic. Big deal.

The argument is feeble because radical Muslims are not the only people who speak Arabic. Our commie-spy strategy can still work. We will just have to outsource leg-work.

A couple of years ago, August posted an article by a Quebec journalist who attempted to do just this sort of investigation and was unable to find anyone to "outsource the leg-work" to. I shall attempt to find that thread.

However, I find it puzzling that you disagree with the claim that what goes on in mosques is hidden from Canadian society at large.

Ok, so let's see these hard-line clerics exposed so that we can ridicule them just like Phelps.

Agreed. I will not dispute that Fred Phelps has much less influence than big city Muslim clerics.

I insist that within a few generations, the radical-anti-West Muslim clerics will see their congregations dwindle and the problem will solve itself.

I don't mean to sound like mikedavid00000, but I have to point out that we continue to accept immigrants from countries where hard-core Islam is the norm, and will no doubt continue to accept immigrants from these places. The children or grandchildren of today's first-generation Muslims will likely become Canadianized. But the Muslims who arrive in Canada next year, and in 5 years, and in 10 or 20 years, will still be ready audiences for these hard-line clerics.

To me, it seems like a crucial step in the process is for Canadian Muslims, the ones who've become comfortable with our multi-cultural and tolerant society, to put its foot down. If "whitey" runs around filing hate-speech charges when some Imam opens his yap and says something stupid, that's counter-productive: it makes it seem like Muslims are being persecuted and just makes these nutjob clerics more appealing to the angry young men.

Canadian Muslims, the regular folks kind that we both agree constitute the silent majority in this country, are the ones who can change things. They can tell hardline clerics "not in our mosque," they can help new Canadians reconsile their religion with Canadian values and help them integrate, and they can provide a more constructive outlet for the angry young people to express their frustrations. I'm sure this stuff already happens to some extent, but obviously not all is well and more needs to be done, and I believe that the ones who have the real ability to make a difference is the Canadianized Muslims that we agree make up the silent majority of Muslims in this country.

-k

[Charles Anthony]

A couple of years ago, August posted an article by a Quebec journalist who attempted to do just this sort of investigation and was unable to find anyone to "outsource the leg-work" to. I shall attempt to find that thread.

Please find it because I find it highly implausible. I have "That Quebec journalist is either an idiot or a deceiver." ready to go because I know ex-Muslims who are vehemently atheist and anti-Islam. They speak Arabic too, by the way.

Oh! I forgot! They still look Arabic too.

However, I find it puzzling that you disagree with the claim that what goes on in mosques is hidden from Canadian society at large.

Whatever is hidden can be exposed by our secret ex-Muslim-commie-spy trick. Put it this way: an anti-Western imam in a Western country should be smart enough to know that spies abound. Only stupid imams would think otherwise and I derive comfort from the following facts:

- most people are not stupid

- most people do not listen to stupid people

- stupid people do not last

Here is where you and I differ: I do not think it is necessary for anybody to say "not in our mosque" because they can vote with their feet. The highest concentration of Muslims are not in the prairies -- there is a lot of choice when it comes to mosques. Compared to The Almighty Dollar, the preacher (stupid or smart) is not very attractive. Every church (or social group) deals with that and the wacko ones peter out.

[August1991]

A couple of years ago, August posted an article by a Quebec journalist who attempted to do just this sort of investigation and was unable to find anyone to "outsource the leg-work" to. I shall attempt to find that thread.

That intrigued me then I remembered. Here's the link (typo and all):

I would not expect many on this forum to know who Richard Martineau is, nor even to know the newspaper Voir.

...

Ricahrd Martineau

Unfortunately, the link is to his most recent column.

[Charles Anthony]

The archives are still maintained online:

La tragédie du 2 novembre

He says he asked atheists and believers. All of them were afraid. Only one accepted on the condition that his voice was disguised.

This is where I doubt the journalist: he said he had no idea why they were afraid. That is a bovine submission. I think he is a liar. He never thought to ask the others why they were afraid??

More importantly, he never said what he found out from his secret recording. Nothing in his article tells you what was said in this mosque.

None of this surprises me coming from the Voir. It is not a sophisticated paper, to put it mildly. It goes on the same rack as The Eye and Xtra and costs less than The National Enquirer.

[kimmy]

Whatever is hidden can be exposed by our secret ex-Muslim-commie-spy trick.

Earlier you said you weren't afraid of speech that's out in the open, and mocked the idea of sending "spies into churches with mini-cameras or audio recorders hidden on the end of our umbrellas and charge clerics with promoting hate and violence!" ..."like the commies do!"

But, you argue that this information *is* out in the open, because we *do* have the "commie spy trick". On the one hand you take comfort in the security that comes from this information, but on the other you sneer at the means by which the information is obtained.

At any rate, I've got no sympathy for the imams that were exposed or the mosques that were embarrassed. I believe that if you're going to regret getting caught doing something, you ought to ask yourself whether you should really be doing it in the first place.

Here is where you and I differ: I do not think it is necessary for anybody to say "not in our mosque" because they can vote with their feet. The highest concentration of Muslims are not in the prairies -- there is a lot of choice when it comes to mosques. Compared to The Almighty Dollar, the preacher (stupid or smart) is not very attractive. Every church (or social group) deals with that and the wacko ones peter out.

As I mentioned, though, more Muslims come to Canada each year from countries where hardline views are the norm. As long as that continues, these hardline imams will always have an audience. More progressive, more Canadianized Muslims might move on to more progressive mosques, but there'll be newcomers to take their place.

-k

[Charles Anthony]

But, you argue that this information *is* out in the open, because we *do* have the "commie spy trick". On the one hand you take comfort in the security that comes from this information, but on the other you sneer at the means by which the information is obtained.

Correct. I see no inconsistency. Each of them should be looking behind their backs.

Both things may be ridiculous but they are balancing the power. Therefore, whether you were a snivelling little hate-mongering imam or a snivelling little hate-mongering anti-imam, it makes sense for an outsider like myself to look at both of you together as less of a threat to me.

As I mentioned, though, more Muslims come to Canada each year from countries where hardline views are the norm. As long as that continues, these hardline imams will always have an audience.

You need to have more faith in your own culture and religion: pop. Give those kids television and you have instantly won the battle. An imam is not attractive.

Elvis Presley came into our culture condemned as promoting The Devil's music and died as The King.

Viva la Populacion!

[kimmy]

As I mentioned, though, more Muslims come to Canada each year from countries where hardline views are the norm. As long as that continues, these hardline imams will always have an audience.

You need to have more faith in your own culture and religion: pop. Give those kids television and you have instantly won the battle. An imam is not attractive.

Elvis Presley came into our culture condemned as promoting The Devil's music and died as The King.

Viva la Populacion!

The kids might have made Elvis "the King", but I don't know that the generation that was raised with more traditional music ever warmed up to him. Kind of like people my age felt that Kurt Cobain was a revolutionary while people who grew up on Aerosmith and Springsteen and Dire Straits felt that Kurt Cobain was a hollering idiot.

When Muslims come to Canada from countries where conservative values are the norm and the view that western culture is the immoral filth, I doubt that they'll change their minds. Their kids will probably feel differently, but they themselves, no. Is pop culture really that compelling? I'm not sure... it doesn't even seem like people who've been raised on it find it very appealing.

-k

[Argus]

You need to have more faith in your own culture and religion: pop. Give those kids television and you have instantly won the battle. An imam is not attractive.

Ever been to an area with a high population of Muslims? You can invariably tell from all the satellite dishes - tuned to television from home. Their kids grow up watching TV in Arabic from the middle-east or from Pakistan or wherever. And if they also go to Muslim schools, with similar children, and then go to Mosques where middle east imams howl about the evil Jews and the decadence and filth of Western society, that is certainly going to have an influence, even on second and third generation "Canadians".

There was a Toronto Star story some years back, before 911, I believe, where the reporter, a Muslim, actually did go to various mosques, and did, in fact, find that in some of them, the values being preached were incompatible with Canadian values, and included hatred of Jews and western society. I tried googling for it but there is so much crap out there and I don't have anything specific enough to filter it out. I also recall that Irshad Manji said she was kicked out of her Muslim school for questioning her teachers anti-semitic teachings.

[BC_chick]

Here's something I didn't expect to see, Muslim preachers in England coming out against the Taliban, and the practice of suicide bombing. It would be nice to see this actually happen and have peace loving Muslim leaders encouraging their people to love those that hate and be examples that Allah could show favour on.GuardianUK

Yes, many elements of Muslim culture do not mix with our way of life, yes, the jihadists walk amongst us every day, and yes they are a real threat to our way of life. Nobody denies these facts. But we are repeatedly told of this threat, yet we do nothing about it - "it" being the radical elements in our society, funded by the peace-loving Saudis as stated in the Guardian article.

Instead, we (the west and in particular the US) befriend these puppet regimes so long as they say what we want them to say in public, and for that we turn a blind eye to the REAL threat facing us - their backing of hate-preaching fundamentalist clerics who live amongst us.

Meanwhile, we create a farce called the "war on terror" and go after two-bit dictators like Saddam, who committed all his "crimes against humanity" when he was in fact an ally when committing these crimes, thereby demonstrating to the thinking that something other than his crimes was the cause of animosity. Hmmm, perhaps the fact that his vast oil-reserves were no longer available to us.

How does throwing out Saddam help us with addressing Saudi-backed, hate-preaching clerics who are brainwashing our Muslim community that they need to kill us? Nobody can yet answer that.

It's as though the REAL threat about the dangerous clerics is constantly spoon-fed to us to keep fear and paranoia, which in turn provides support to wage wars which do absolutely ZERO to alleviate the actual threat with which we are kept in fear.

You can go on all you want about the hate-preaching clerics and how we need to address them. But until we stop accepting this farce of a war, and demand that instead of declaring war on energy-rich countries while turning a blind-eye to the real threat (Saudi-backed clerics living here given that we depend on the Saudis for energy).... then we will never "win" against terrorism.

[scribblet]

There was a Toronto Star story some years back, before 911, I believe, where the reporter, a Muslim, actually did go to various mosques, and did, in fact, find that in some of them, the values being preached were incompatible with Canadian values, and included hatred of Jews and western society. I tried googling for it but there is so much crap out there and I don't have anything specific enough to filter it out. I also recall that Irshad Manji said she was kicked out of her Muslim school for questioning her teachers anti-semitic teachings.

I remember the story, and do believe that we need to take our heads out of the sand when it comes to what is being preached in some mosques. Not sure how we could get the info. and how they can determine which is a radical mosque and which isn't.

Ask the Brits about the Finsbury Mosque and how it became a haven for terrorist and terrorism and where weapons where stored( I have heard that it is undergoing a make over)

A mosque in Brooklyn was where the blind sheik inspired the 1993 World Trade Centre bombing. Milan's Islamic cultural centre served as AQs main European base.

[Charles Anthony]

You need to have more faith in your own culture and religion: pop. Give those kids television and you have instantly won the battle. An imam is not attractive.

Ever been to an area with a high population of Muslims?

Probably more often than I realize. Not all of them wear labels, badges or name-tags.

You can invariably tell from all the satellite dishes - tuned to television from home. Their kids grow up watching TV in Arabic from the middle-east or from Pakistan or wherever. And if they also go to Muslim schools, with similar children, and then go to Mosques where middle east imams howl about the evil Jews and the decadence and filth of Western society, that is certainly going to have an influence, even on second and third generation "Canadians".

I am willing to bet that the young Muslims integrate pop culture into their lives more than you do.

I am also willing to bet that the "howl" of the imams has the greatest effect on old non-Muslims than it does on the second and third generation "Canadians".

When Muslims come to Canada from countries where conservative values are the norm and the view that western culture is the immoral filth, I doubt that they'll change their minds.

Our pop stars need to raise their panty-less skirts in public to gain our attention. That is filth.

[kimmy]

When Muslims come to Canada from countries where conservative values are the norm and the view that western culture is the immoral filth, I doubt that they'll change their minds.

Our pop stars need to raise their panty-less skirts in public to gain our attention. That is filth.

It probably is. The Imams might have a point. So how, again, does that make Muslim immigrants more likely to embrace North American popular culture?

-k

[Charles Anthony]

So how, again, does that make Muslim immigrants more likely to embrace North American popular culture?

It does not make them MORE likely. That was not the assertion.

Everything is relative. I am saying that the howls of an anti-Western imam may as well fall on deaf ears because pop culture is more exciting.