Palestine: Peace or Apartheid

[Higgly]

Jimmy Carter, the last US President to actually move peace forward in the Middle East by delivering the Egypt/Israel peace treaty, has now written a book. The title is "Palestine: Peace or Apartheid".

On release of the book, there were a number of media interviews.

Wolf Blitzer on CNN interviewed Dennis Ross, the Bill Clinton chief negotiator who was involved in the Swiss cheese proposal between Ehud Barak and Yasser Arafat. This proposal would have seen the West Bank divided up into tiny Bantustans by Israeli-only access roads. Arafat rejected the proposal - perhaps his finest moment. The Jewish community predictably opined that the Palestinians never miss an opportinity to miss an opportunity. Who was it that said that? I think it was the same guy who said that Golda Meir had a vocabulary of 500 words but only used 200 of them. Of course, among those words was the statement that there was no such thing as a Palestinian.... Dennis Ross whined that Mr. Carter had stolen his maps. Mr. Carter was not available for an interview with Mr. Blitzer.

Carole McNeill, CBC talking head, was able to interview Mr. Carter as well as Janet Stein of the Monk Centre for International Studies.

Mr. Carter was careful to point out that he was not claiming that Israel was an apartheid state, but rather that there was an apartheid regime in the occupied West Bank. He also pointed out that a free speech debate of the Middle East has been suppressed.

McNeill then interviewed Janice Stein. Stein has been a vocal supporter of the invasion of Iraq. Anyone who might wonder whether a free speech debate of the Middle East has been suppressed need only watch Stein in action. She not only angrily dismissed Jimmy Carter's arguments, but called for the shunning of the Carter Center, saying that it no longer had any credibility.

There it is in a nutshell. Say anything other than the Israel party line, and you will be shunned by the Israelite community. No matter who you are, and no matter what you have accomplished.

[Higgly]

Bump

[sharkman]

I'd call Carter a has been except he's a neva wuz. He has no business telling other governments anything when he was so inept with his own. His book borders on anti-semitism, so of course all Israel haters will gobble up every word.

[Higgly]

I'd call Carter a has been except he's a neva wuz. He has no business telling other governments anything when he was so inept with his own. His book borders on anti-semitism, so of course all Israel haters will gobble up every word.

Thanks for providing yet another example of how debate on the Middle East is being suppressed, as Carter says. Say something negative about Israel, and you are a 'neva wuz', an anti-semite, an Israel hater. Heaven forbid that Israel should ever be accused of doing anything wrong. The only perfect country on the face of the earth. Sort of a political form of papal infallibility.

A 'neva-wuz' who managed to get elected as President of the US. Now that takes some doing. Carter was undone by the Iranian hostage crisis, which was set in motion by a series of events that started long before he became president. It was US support for the Shah of Iran, a ruler whose brutality rivals that of Joseph Stalin, which eventually came home to roost and resulted in the rise to power of Ayatollah Khomeini. Carter had nothing to do with that.

He was actually a very good President. Here (from Wikipedia) is a list of his accomplishments....

As President his major initiatives included the consolidation of numerous governmental agencies into the newly formed Department of Energy, a cabinet level department. He enacted strong environmental legislation. With bipartisan support he and Congress deregulated the trucking, airline, rail, finance, communications, and oil industries. Carter bolstered the social security system; and appointed record numbers of women and minorities to significant government and judicial posts. In foreign affairs, Carter's major initiatives included the Camp David Accords, the Panama Canal Treaties, the creation of full diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China, and the negotiation of the SALT II Treaty. In addition, he is seen as a champion of human rights throughout the world and used human rights as the center of his administration's foreign policy.

The US could use a guy like this now, IMHO.

[sharkman]

But I had to provide an 'example' for you, since your worship of all things Carter is obstructing the reality of the middle east. His comparing it to aparthied, for instance, was an insult to those blacks who lived under that oppression. Not to mention Israel, who just gave a big chunk of land to the Palestinians in yet another attempt to win the peace. They get missiles and attacks and a stupid book by JK in response. Instead of taking over the Palestinians, like they could do in 24 hours, they build a wall to keep the bomb back packs away.

Jimmy just can't get over his failed presidency. He's been stickng his nose in the U.S. government's business, trying to make up for his disaster of a presidency ever since. Another gigantic failure he authored was the north korea treaty. We certainly don't need his influence on the Middle East.

Hopefully his advanced years catch up with him and he spends the rest of his days like Reagan, in actual retirement.

[Higgly]

But I had to provide an 'example' for you, since your worship of all things Carter is obstructing the reality of the middle east. His comparing it to aparthied, for instance, was an insult to those blacks who lived under that oppression. Not to mention Israel, who just gave a big chunk of land to the Palestinians in yet another attempt to win the peace.

And what chunk of land was that? As I recall, Nelson Mandela has been quite sympathetic to the comparison of the Palestinian situation to that of the blacks in South Africa.

They get missiles and attacks and a stupid book by JK in response. Instead of taking over the Palestinians, like they could do in 24 hours, they build a wall to keep the bomb back packs away.

J who?

The Israelis have considered annexation of the West Bank a number of times.The problem is that it would bring a mass of Arab voters into the Israeli democratic system - something to be avoided at all costs. Not to mention that world opinion would never accept such a move.

Jimmy just can't get over his failed presidency. He's been stickng his nose in the U.S. government's business, trying to make up for his disaster of a presidency ever since. Another gigantic failure he authored was the north korea treaty. We certainly don't need his influence on the Middle East.

Hopefully his advanced years catch up with him and he spends the rest of his days like Reagan, in actual retirement.

So you are wishing that Carter gets Alzheimers? I can't be sure but this might actually represent a new low for you.

[sharkman]

Whoops, a typo slip. Not JK, but JC as in Jimmy Carter. When referring to Reagan, I spoke of his retirement, not his ailment. That's because I was referring to his retirement, not his ailment.

How old is he anyway?

[Higgly]

What. Now you want me to do your research for you? Look it up fer cryin' out loud.

[jbg]

Jimmy Carter, the last US President to actually move peace forward in the Middle East by delivering the Egypt/Israel peace treaty, has now written a book. The title is "Palestine: Peace or Apartheid".

Carter and Brezhnev, with an ill-considered Joint Declaration on October 1, 1977, so freaked out Sadat that he threw himself into Israel's arms on his own. Later, to give Sadat cover, he used the US's auspices for the final treaty.

Saying that Carter had any constructive role is, at best, giving the rooster credit for the sunrise. Carter should have swung from the traitor's rope.

[Black Dog]

Saying that Carter had any constructive role is, at best, giving the rooster credit for the sunrise. Carter should have swung from the traitor's rope.

By all accounts, Carter's relentless drive to achieve peace and his reluctance to allow the two men to leave without reaching an agreement are what played the decisive role in the success of the talks. Numerous times both the Egyptian and Israeli leaders wanted to scrap negotiations, only to be lured back into the process by personal appeals from Carter. Begin and Sadat had such mutual antipathy toward one another that they only seldom had direct contact; thus Carter had to conduct his own microcosmic form of shuttle diplomacy by holding one-on-one meetings with either Sadat or Begin in one cabin, then returning to the cabin of the third party to relay the substance of his discussions.

A particularly difficult situation arose on day ten of the talks. The issues of Israeli settlement withdrawal from the Sinai and the status of the West Bank created what seemed to be an impasse. Begin and Sadat were “literally not on speaking terms,” and “claustrophobia was setting in." In response, Carter had the choice of trying to salvage the agreement by conceding the issue of the West Bank to Begin, while advocating Sadat’s less controversial position on the removal of all settlements from the Sinai Peninsula. Or he could have refused to continue the talks, reported the reasons for their failure, and allowed Begin to bear the brunt of the blame. Carter chose to continue and for three more days negotiated, arm-twisted, assured, and petitioned until at last an agreement was possible. The result was the Camp David Accords.

link

[Figleaf]

Not to mention Israel, who just gave a big chunk of land to the Palestinians in yet another attempt to win the peace.

??? What is God's name are you talking about??? Israel has never given any land to the Palestinians.

[Higgly]

Black Dog, thank you for your last quote. By trying to retain that little pissant settlement in the Sinai, Israel was trying to create facts on the ground that would let them later lay claim to a legitimate interest in the Sinai and wage more war in the future. Israel did this knowing it had military superiority and could ultimately take the Sinai again by creating some sort of incident. An old Israeli trick that has been used many, many times.

The result of Jimmy Carter's Camp David Accords has been that Egypt still has the territory it had in 1948 and is a respected mediator between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

[Higgly]

??? What is God's name are you talking about??? Israel has never given any land to the Palestinians.

Exactamundo. They did give a little back, though. They need to give back a whole lot more.

[sharkman]

Here's more evidence from Jimmy's past and shows a decided lack of researching an issue before rendering his verdict. On this instance he came to the defense of a member of the SS, a full fledged Nazi guard who had been deported from the U.S. in 1987. At that time, a U.S. Justice department official received a letter from Jimmy Carter, asking specifically for special treatment in this case.

Quote:

“On the upper corner of the letter was a note signed by Jimmy Carter saying that in cases such as this, he wanted ‘special consideration for the family for humanitarian reasons.’

“I didn’t respond to the letter – the case was already over and he was out of the country – but it always stuck in my craw. A former president who didn’t do what I would expect him to do - with a full staff at his disposal – to find out the facts before he took up the side of this person. But I wasn’t going to pick a fight with a former president. We had enough on our plate.”

“It always bothered me, but I didn’t go public with it until recently, when he wrote this book and let it spill out where his sentiments really lie,” Sher said. “Here was Jimmy Carter jumping in on behalf of someone who did not deserve in any way, shape or form special consideration. And the things he has now said about the Jewish lobby really exposes where his heart really lies.”

End quote

The evidence they had on this SS Nazi was a a roster book that was kept by the SS which documented every execution they carried out with the name of the victim and name of the SS guard who carried it out. Plus Bartesch admitted to the court that he had voluntarily joined the Waffen SS and served at the death camp where the execution took place.

And Jimmy wanted 'special consideration'. Either he didn't do the research and came off as a buffoon, or he did, and found that a former SS guard didn't do anything worth deportion, which is scary.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I find it hilarious that the lefties of the world are all looking to Jimmy Carter, a failed one-termer who got walloped by Reagan, for direction. Sad, actually.

Wasn't Carter in Power when the Iranians stormed the US embassy in Tehran? And what did he do? A book tour? The talk show circuit?

The last thing we need in the middle east is another appeaser.

[Black Dog]

I find it hilarious that the lefties of the world are all looking to Jimmy Carter, a failed one-termer who got walloped by Reagan, for direction. Sad, actually.

Holy fuckin' hyperbole.

[jbg]

I find it hilarious that the lefties of the world are all looking to Jimmy Carter, a failed one-termer who got walloped by Reagan, for direction. Sad, actually.

Holy fuckin' hyperbole.

It isn't hyperbole at all. Carter was a failed President, though I'm admit to voting for him both in 1976 and 1980. I suspect his initial instincts were good though not strong, and he was fully carried away by the politically correct Washington establishment. After he had a few cases of "foot in mouth" disease he looked to this establishment for his moral compass as well as practical guidance.

[Rue]

There it is in a nutshell. Say anything other than the Israel party line, and you will be shunned by the Israelite community. No matter who you are, and no matter what you have accomplished.

Higgly I am tired of yur negative generalizations designe to slur all Jews. Yout hink if you use the world "Israelite" this somehow waters down your anti-semitic slur? Grow up. Each time you make your generalized slurs I have only one thing to say to you-you are pathetic.

[Black Dog]

It isn't hyperbole at all. Carter was a failed President, though I'm admit to voting for him both in 1976 and 1980. I suspect his initial instincts were good though not strong, and he was fully carried away by the politically correct Washington establishment. After he had a few cases of "foot in mouth" disease he looked to this establishment for his moral compass as well as practical guidance.

No, dude. The hyperbole is this:

I find it hilarious that the lefties of the world are all looking to Jimmy Carter yadda yadda yadda

[lost&outofcontrol]

Expert likens occupation to apartheid

John Dugard, a South African investigator on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, said that "anyone who experienced apartheid has a sense of deja vu when visiting the OPT (Occupied Palestinian Territories)."

[Rue]

So you want to quote Mr. Dugard? You have any idea what this man has actuall said and who hired him and what his mandate is or do you simply refer to him because he spews out what you want to hear?

This so called expert ( a Southg African lawyer who has openly made it clear he does not believe there should be an Israeli state) was chosen precisely because he does not believe in the existence of the State of Israel. That is why he was chosen not because he is an expert. He is no expert. There are millions of lawyers on this planet the UN Commission on Human Rights could have chosen but they went deliberately out of their way to appoint someone with pronounced hatred and bias against the existence of the State of Israel.

The mandate given to him by the UN Commission on Human Rights excludes ANY consideration of violations of international law or human rights by Palestinians.

This is precisely why the UN Commission on Human Rights has no credibility. It makes no effort to remain neutral let alone examine both sides of the human rights conflict.

What makes it even more of a joke is that this commission is dominated by human rights violating nations who will not allow themselves to be examined and who all have committed far worse human rights violations then Israel but who feel they can hire a shrill to attack Israel but ignore their own countries' records or the record of Hamas, the PLO, Hezbollah, and all Arab countries of the Middle East.

Before you quote this hand-picked shrill because he spews out the usual Israel bad, Palestine good simplistic mantra, understand he has not provided a shred of proof for his comments. Instead he has simply published subjective remarks with absolutely no evidence to back up what he has said.

This so called expert simply publishes subjective remarks such as:

"Words cannot convey the hardships to which Palestinians are subjected in the interests of the Judaization of Jerusalem."

“consideration should be given to the establishment of a binational State."

“They (check-points) are the primary cause of poverty and economic depression in the West Bank.”

"Palestinian women are...subjected to sexual violence by both soldiers and settlers."

"the UN Security Council and the United Nations as a participant in the Quartet are engaged in a strategy of political appeasement, in which respect for human rights, international humanitarian law and the rule of law have less importance."

The above are just some examples of his subjective remarks which present no expert evidence what-so-ever. Make no mistake the above comments are simply subjective opinions and its precisely this kind of rhetoric that will NEVER aid in any peaceful resolution.

This is a man who believes Israel should be ended and a "bi-national" state be created. Of course we can just skip the fact that in this bi-national state, Muslims would not demand the government and Islam be the same and the Muslims would not insist on enforcing dhimmitude and a Muslim society. Yes Muslims and Jews will live together in a bi-national state because hey-there is so much history throughout the Muslim world of how Muslims love and tolerate non Muslims let alone each other.

Yah and while I am at it Jews run wild in Jersusalem trying to turn Muslims into Jews and force everyone to join them in their world wide conspiracy to take over the world. First it was the banks and Hollywood and the press, now Jerusalem, tomorrow the universe!!!

Yes blame the check-points for Palestine's economic problems not the fact that the PLO for the last twenty years stole all the foreign aid and deposited it in French and SZwiss bank accounts. Never mind Hamas destroyed its own roads, green-houses, and businesses and threatens anyone with death if they go to Israel to work-no no, its the fault of those Jews in Israel.

Then let us not forget. When those Jews in Israel are not running around Jerusalem "Judaizing" it, they are raping Palestinian women.

If this man's idiotic comments were not so blatantly bias they would be absurd but when this so called expert accused Israeli soldiers and civilians of raping Palestinian women and then was asked to provide evidence for such comments, he said he had none. When then asked why he would make such a comment he ran away from the press. This is what you refer to as an expert. Excuse me while I go puke.

Come back when you can quote someone who actually has tried to analyze both sides of the conflict and remain neutral and offer constructive suggestions.

If you want to engage in the usual Israel bad, Palestine good mantra join Higgly and Figleaf and the rest of them for a drink in their hotel room and get cozy but spare me.

[Figleaf]

This so called expert ( a Southg African lawyer who has openly made it clear he does not believe there should be an Israeli state) was chosen precisely because he does not believe in the existence of the State of Israel.

That's a oddly reality-denying viewpoint for him to have. Where can I read more about this?

[jbg]

Expert likens occupation to apartheid

John Dugard, a South African investigator on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, said that "anyone who experienced apartheid has a sense of deja vu when visiting the OPT (Occupied Palestinian Territories)."

A couple of questions:

1. Have "majority" living conditions in Zimbabwe improved since "majority rule come into effect?
   
2. During the 1948-67 period, were the so-called "Palestinians" (properly called "Molestinians" according to a poster on the old CBC Board) not kept under strict segregation from the people of Jordan, Egypt and Syria, whichever country they adjoined, and could that not be called 'apartheid' as well? and
   
3. Was there any move during the 1948-67 period to create a "Palestinian State" out of what are now called "occupied territories?
   

[DogOnPorch]

Have "majority" living conditions in Zimbabwe improved since "majority rule come into effect?

Best ask one of Robert's political opponents about that one...that is if the blows to the head haven't caused him to forget his name, even.

During the 1948-67 period, were the so-called "Palestinians" (properly called "Molestinians" according to a poster on the old CBC Board) not kept under strict segregation from the people of Jordan, Egypt and Syria, whichever country they adjoined, and could that not be called 'apartheid' as well?

A little talked about part of the whole situation. Why weren't these refugees treated better by their "friends"? They all bled the same during the 48 War. Arab Mufti...Jordanian...Egyptian...etc. No V.A. for the Pally, I guess. The Merchant Marines of the Middle-East.

Was there any move during the 1948-67 period to create a "Palestinian State" out of what are now called "occupied territories?

About 8 o' clock Pacific...what? Oh I thought you were asking what time it was. As to answer your question re: did anyone do anything about this Palestinan Homeland before the Six Day War...my answer is Thursday. I'll get the package to you Thursday. (Note to those just arriving: that's a 'No')

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There is no longer a way out of our present situation except by forging a road toward our objective, violently and by force, over a sea of blood and under a horizon blazing with fire.

---Gamal Abdel Nasser, 1967

[gc1765]

I'd call Carter a has been except he's a neva wuz. He has no business telling other governments anything when he was so inept with his own. His book borders on anti-semitism, so of course all Israel haters will gobble up every word.

What did he say that could be interpreted as anti-semitic?