Israel and/or the US is Supposed to Negotiate With This?

[jbg]

The three articles excerpted below leads one to question how one can sanely negotiate with these poor excuses for people. Clearly, what is illustrated here is a love of gore, death and killing. None of the victims here were Israelis or Westerners. I'd like some explanations as to how one conducts rational discussions in these three distinct settings: (1) Workers seeking jobs lured to slaughter; (2) Hamas cold-blooded killing of three rival faction (not even Israeli) babies; and (3) Hezbollah's deliberate use of human shields.

70 job seekers butchered(Link to Article)

BAGHDAD, Dec. 12 — A truck loaded with bags of wheat drove up to a crowd of poor Shiites early Tuesday, lured them close with a promise of work and exploded as they gathered around. Seventy people were killed and 236 were wounded, officials said.

The attack, in a square in central Baghdad, together with bodies found by Iraqi authorities, pushed the day’s deaths across Iraq to at least 131, the highest total since a bombing killed more than 200 here last month. Shiite political leaders often point to such attacks, arguing that they, not the American military, should control security here.

******

The deepening war again drew the attention of Iraq’s Sunni Arab neighbors. On Monday more than 30 prominent Islamic clerics from Saudi Arabia called on Sunni Muslims around the Middle East to support Sunnis in Iraq against Shiites, The Associated Press reported. The clerics, most of them from Saudi Arabia’s top Islamic universities, centers of hard-line Islam, posted their statement on a Saudi news Internet site.

“After almost four years of occupation, it is clear that the aim behind this occupation is for the Crusaders and Shiites to take control of Iraq, paving the way to complete their control over the region,” the statement read, the news agency said.

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Hamas atrocity - Kids 3-9 Slaughtered(Link to Article)

JERUSALEM, Dec. 13 — In renewed fighting among Palestinians, gunmen forced a prominent Hamas militant to his knees on Wednesday, then shot him dead outside a courthouse where he worked, in the southern Gaza Strip.

*snip*

The shooting occurred just two days after unidentified gunmen in Gaza City killed three sons, ages 3 to 9, of Baha Balousha, a senior Palestinian security officer and Fatah member. “This is a very dangerous situation,” said Fauzi Barhoum, a Hamas spokesman. “There has been an escalation in the violence and the chaos.”

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Whose War Crimes(Link to Article)

Whose War Crimes?

December 11, 2006; Page A18

A few scenes from modern warfare:

Mohammad Abd al-Hamid Srour moved missiles across southern Lebanon under cover of a white flag. Hussein Ali Mahmoud Suleiman used the porch of a private home to fire rockets. Maher Hassan Mahmoud Kourani dressed in civilian clothes, hid his Kalashnikov in a tote bag and stored anti-aircraft missiles in the back of a green unmarked Volvo. The three men, all members of Hezbollah, were captured by Israel during last summer's war.

Now their videotaped interviews form part of a remarkable report by retired Lieutenant Colonel Reuven Erlich of Israel's Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center. Relying heavily on captured Hezbollah documents, onsite and aerial photography and other first-hand evidence, the report shows how the Shiite group put innocent civilians at risk by deliberately deploying its forces in cities, towns and often private homes.

Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch, has accused Israel's military of "indiscriminate warfare" and "a disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians." Mr. Erlich demolishes that claim, and in the process shows the asymmetric strategy of Islamist radicals.

The most persuasive evidence here is photographic, so we urge readers to access the report itself on the Web site of the American Jewish Congress (ajcongress.org). Hezbollah's headquarters in Aita al-Shaab, for instance, sits in the heart of the village. Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah's office and home are in a densely built neighborhood of Beirut. In the town of Qana -- site of an Israeli bombing on July 30 that killed 28 and that Hezbollah's apologists were quick to label a "massacre" -- an arms warehouse can be seen adjacent to a mosque. There are photographs of rockets in the back seats of cars, missile launchers adjacent to farm houses, storage bunkers hidden beneath homes. There is also a trove of before-and-after photography demonstrating the precision of most Israeli bombing.

The report also shows how the use of civilian cover was explicitly part of Hezbollah's strategy. "[The organization's operatives] live in their houses, in their schools, in their churches, in their fields, in their farms and in their factories," said Mr. Nasrallah in a TV interview on May 27, several weeks before the war. "You can't destroy them in the same way you would destroy an army".

*snip*

[Black Dog]

The three articles excerpted below leads one to question how one can sanely negotiate with these poor excuses for people. Clearly, what is illustrated here is a love of gore, death and killing. None of the victims here were Israelis or Westerners. I'd like some explanations as to how one conducts rational discussions in these three distinct settings: (1) Workers seeking jobs lured to slaughter; (2) Hamas cold-blooded killing of three rival faction (not even Israeli) babies; and (3) Hezbollah's deliberate use of human shields.

Your premise, 'tis busted. First, what's the relationship between thugs in Iraq, militant factions in Palestine and quasi-state actors in Lebanon? What's the local context iof these events? Could the fact that al three examples come from divided, failed and unstable states explain the events more than "love of gore, death and killing."

Second, and key: when people discuss negotiations, its generally assumed that they are not talking about street gumen, but the political actors.

[August1991]

Your premise, 'tis busted. First, what's the relationship between thugs in Iraq, militant factions in Palestine and quasi-state actors in Lebanon? What's the local context iof these events? Could the fact that al three examples come from divided, failed and unstable states explain the events more than "love of gore, death and killing."

Second, and key: when people discuss negotiations, its generally assumed that they are not talking about street gumen, but the political actors.

BD, your last questions are laughable. And they all beg your first: what is the relationship between these three incidents?

[Black Dog]

BD, your last questions are laughable. And they all beg your first: what is the relationship between these three incidents?

'kay: why "laughable"? Personally I think the fact that the places in question are, and have been for a while, lawless, stateless, violent, and unstable has more bearing on events than the race or creed of the people involved. The fact that all three involve Muslim Arabs is largely irrelevant in light of other factors.

And I ask the first because, though I suspect the key, in the mind of the o.p, is that all involve the Arabs he hates so much, I'd like it clarified.

[Higgly]

Your premise, 'tis busted.

Well of course. Jbg sees all Arabs and Moslems as a mass of screaming heeby jeebies because he/she/it is a bigot. One could just as well blame Timothy McVeigh for cigarette smuggling on southern Ontario Indian Reserves....

What a hoot. JBG. Get a clue.

[jbg]

Your premise, 'tis busted.

Well of course. Jbg sees all Arabs and Moslems as a mass of screaming heeby jeebies because he/she/it is a bigot. One could just as well blame Timothy McVeigh for cigarette smuggling on southern Ontario Indian Reserves....

What a hoot. JBG. Get a clue.

Are you saying the incidents reported in those papers didn't happen? Aren't typical? I'm not clear on your message, other than a personal insult.

[jbg]

Your premise, 'tis busted. First, what's the relationship between thugs in Iraq, militant factions in Palestine and quasi-state actors in Lebanon? What's the local context iof these events? Could the fact that al three examples come from divided, failed and unstable states explain the events more than "love of gore, death and killing."

Second, and key: when people discuss negotiations, its generally assumed that they are not talking about street gumen, but the political actors.

But does this kind of thing happen in non-Muslim states? There may be examples, but they are few and far between.

[jdobbin]

But does this kind of thing happen in non-Muslim states? There may be examples, but they are few and far between.

So what do you want to do about it? Kill them all?

[jbg]

But does this kind of thing happen in non-Muslim states? There may be examples, but they are few and far between.

So what do you want to do about it? Kill them all?

If it's us or them, I choose us. Who do you choose?

[jdobbin]

If it's us or them, I choose us. Who do you choose?

So when do you start the killing?

[Higgly]

I choose us. All of us.

[sharkman]

I choose us. All of us.

Well you can't, because they want to kill us. Therefore they will continue to do so until either we stop it or they kill us all.

[jbg]

I choose us. All of us.

Well you can't, because they want to kill us. Therefore they will continue to do so until either we stop it or they kill us all.

The Kumbaya solution does not work, unfortunately. I did love that song when I was six years old, though.

[Charles Anthony]

If it's us or them, I choose us.

Who is us?

Who is them?

[Higgly]

I choose us. All of us.

Well you can't, because they want to kill us. Therefore they will continue to do so until either we stop it or they kill us all.

O brother. Do you check under your bed for boogey-men every night? Six years old indeed.

[Higgly]

Who is us?

Who is them?

Nicely said.

[sharkman]

If it's us or them, I choose us.

Who is us?

Who is them?

The terrorists, and radical Islamists are the ones meant by them, since they want to see the West die. Since I live here in the West, and this forum is based in Canada, us is meant by me to mean the ones who the above mentioned terrorists want to kill.

If you need anything else cleared up like who is Santa Claus, perhaps you could check with a spouse or friend first.

[Higgly]

In that case there are a whole host of thems - the Chinese, the Indians.... the penguins in the Antarctic and the polar bears in the Arctic who suffer from global warming...

Why can't we all just... get along?

[sharkman]

Ask them that, I love polar bears.

[jbg]

Ask them that, I love polar bears.

Imagine negotiating with them -- in their cage.

[Charles Anthony]

The terrorists, and radical Islamists are the ones meant by them, since they want to see the West die.

Not everybody shares your fear.

Since I live here in the West,

Since you live here in the West, you feel compelled to close your eyes to the fact that not everybody shares you martial paranoia. You feel compelled to lump everybody in the "us against them" categories.

Try to answer this: In what category do the migrant workers in the Arabian desert fit?

[jbg]

While this New York Times article(link) seems to concern an accidental tragedy rather than a deliberate massacre, the death tolls are staggering. Even accidents seem to lead to carnage, via uncontrolled stampedes.

[jbg]

Try to answer this: In what category do the migrant workers in the Arabian desert fit?

The point is that they were butchered because they were there.

[Drea]

jbg the articles you quoted in the first post say nothing about dead westerners just like you posted.

Yet you go on to say "Us or them".

Again, who is "Us"?

Is "Us" the Arabs being killed? If so, I find it very hard to believe that you would lump yourself in with Arabs...

Or perhaps you feel bad for those Arabs being killed and therefore want them to be part of "us"...

Which is it?

[jbg]

jbg the articles you quoted in the first post say nothing about dead westerners just like you posted.

Yet you go on to say "Us or them".

Again, who is "Us"?

Is "Us" the Arabs being killed? If so, I find it very hard to believe that you would lump yourself in with Arabs...

Or perhaps you feel bad for those Arabs being killed and therefore want them to be part of "us"...

Which is it?

I do not find arguments about how many angels can fit on the head of a pin amusing, productive or helpful. You understand, I trust, the point of this thread, which is that the Arab/Muslim culture holds little value for life, their own or certainly ours. They give us no cause to fight them with both hands tied behind our back.

Given their primitive nature, their only hope for defeating us is in the front pages of the New York Times or Toronto Star.