What do you believe?

[newbie]

Besides faith, what empirical evidence do you have that it is YOUR God that exists in the 'after-life' (if there is an after-life)?

This guy claims empircal evidence of the afterlife. But if you go through there with a closed and totally skeptical mind, don't even bother visiting his site. link

[GostHacked]

Betsy.

What if you picked the wrong religion? And it turns out the Mormon's were the actual right religion. (See South Park to explain this absurdity) What then? OH SHI.. I chose the wrong religion.

When you are dead, you are dead. Can you come back? No. Is there reincarnation? I really doubt it. Can people talk to the dead and make millions of money by having their own television show? There is no afterlife and there has never been any proof to support it. Eventhough there is no proof to deny it, you first would need at least SOME evidence to actually show it exists. All you have is a book that has been 'purple monkey dishwasher'd' through the ages and modified at every revision. Language has changed through history and the book's language has changed as well. For all we know the origional message and meaning is lost and no longer there. So basing your religion and faith on a book that has been retranslated and retranslated through the ages is really kind of naive. It is no longer God's word. It has the spin of everyone or every group that has retranslated the book along the way. I cannot put faith in that.

I am sure 'God' wants us to live our lives and be happy. If we worry about everything we do and how 'God' will judge us, then you cannot truly live. Always trying to please and gain acceptance of the 'God'. Kind of like appeasing that boss you are afraid of but put on a pedestal. Yeah I can see where the manipulation comes in.

Without religion I know right and wrong.

I have done, right and wrong.

No regrets.

[ClearWest]

What if you picked the wrong religion? And it turns out the Mormon's were the actual right religion. (See South Park to explain this absurdity) What then? OH SHI.. I chose the wrong religion.

It's not like everyone who is of a certain faith is saved, and everyone else is lost. Each person will be judged according to their own faith and works. It's like the old saying, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you a car." A lot of different religions can have the truth. If you are confused by a difference in doctrine, you should pray and ask God what is true. You should also ask God if your religion is true. You might find that God will direct you to the truth.

[cybercoma]

Besides faith, what empirical evidence do you have that it is YOUR God that exists in the 'after-life' (if there is an after-life)?

This guy claims empircal evidence of the afterlife. But if you go through there closed and totally skeptical mind, don't even bother visiting his site. link

If by "closed and totally skeptical" you mean, go there expecting him to back-up what he's saying with more than gibberish, speculation and other sorts of absurdity, I'm not even going to bother.

[newbie]

This guy claims empircal evidence of the afterlife. But if you go through there closed and totally skeptical mind, don't even bother visiting his site. link

If by "closed and totally skeptical" you mean, go there expecting him to back-up what he's saying with more than gibberish, speculation and other sorts of absurdity, I'm not even going to bother.

No, what I mean if you're totally committed to atheism stay away. But he does present some interesting and factual information. Peer review is difficult with this topic as most scientists balk at talk of the afterlife. But if you're willing to be open to the possibility, it can be a thought provoking website. He presents much information that can be independently researched. The bottom line is that it is still up to us regardless.

[stignasty]

Anyway, for all you Atheists and non-believers in God, I'm curious: Do you have any back-up plan?

You know....in case you're all wrong?

If I happened to wind up at the pearly gates (and of course I won't) I would tell the god in charge that it's done a terrible job and that an eternity with a bunch of Christians would be hell for me.

[betsy]

Betsy.

What if you picked the wrong religion? And it turns out the Mormon's were the actual right religion. (See South Park to explain this absurdity) What then? OH SHI.. I chose the wrong religion.

I know that I did not pick the wrong religion. I am talking about Christianity. The different divisions among Christians (various denominations) are just man-made. When Christ said "Upon this rock I built my church..." He was not talking about Roman Catholicism...or United Churches..etc., He was not referring to a building being literally built on that rock. He was referring to all His teachings.

When you are dead, you are dead. Can you come back? No. Is there reincarnation? I really doubt it. Can people talk to the dead and make millions of money by having their own television show? There is no afterlife and there has never been any proof to support it. Eventhough there is no proof to deny it, you first would need at least SOME evidence to actually show it exists.

But that is the difference between faith and science. Faith does not require any evidence at all.

I believe that there is something beyond death. You want me to believe otherwise....then it is for you to show some proof that my belief is wrong!

All you have is a book that has been 'purple monkey dishwasher'd' through the ages and modified at every revision. Language has changed through history and the book's language has changed as well. For all we know the origional message and meaning is lost and no longer there. So basing your religion and faith on a book that has been retranslated and retranslated through the ages is really kind of naive. It is no longer God's word. It has the spin of everyone or every group that has retranslated the book along the way. I cannot put faith in that.

This is not like the whisper game. Scholars had translated, and retranslated, and retranslated....but the translation keeps getting better, because scholarship is more sophisticated, and more objective presumeably....and they all got back to the original source of documents. We are not talking about amateur monks translating anymore...but academics.

Homeric epics were pooh-poohed for centuries as containing no facts of historical significance. Yet the brilliant telling of the Trojan War, thought to be mythical less than a 150 years ago, is now accepted as fact. Thanks to the archeological studies of the area. These poems were passed down ORALLY for over 2 thousand years (we now know that the Trojan War occurred I think around 2500 B.C.) And Homer did not write until 650 BC, give or take I forget the exact dates. Yet these written documents based on ancient oral traditions have proven to be extremely accurate.

The Biblical record was all recorded during historical time. The Jews and others kept excellent records of current events. The facts surrounding Jesus' life are not in dispute.

Without religion I know right and wrong.

I have done, right and wrong.

No regrets.

If you were raised in our society, then your moral precepts are based on our culture's belief system. Our culture's belief system is a religion known as Christianity. Whether you like it or not, your moral standards are based on Christian standards....no matter whether you accept them or reject them.

The "no regrets" indicates that you may reject them, but that is called moral relativism, the belief in a fluctuating morality. But that's a whole other thread.

[Melanie_]

No, I don't need one. I'm pretty sure!

You don't need a backup plan because you are pretty sure, and I don't need one because I am equally sure. No problem.

[Slavik44]

This guy claims empircal evidence of the afterlife. But if you go through there with a closed and totally skeptical mind, don't even bother visiting his site. link

Skeptisicm is what helps you seperate the bullshit from the truth, so I don't think I will be entering that site, because I would have to excersize skeptisicm. But seeing as how you don't excersize skeptisicm I would encourage you to buy the Egyptian Book of the Dead...this will tell you how to navigate the afterlife, if you do not excersize skeptisism you will find your self very well informed.

[DarkAngel_]

um....scientists do have a thesis on the after-life and there is alot of them, its just no 1 belief is proven.

also, betty, words are not the meaning of reality, but a definition of the way we comprehend reality, we have diff. meanings then those who speak diff. languages, so the english and hebrew bible are alein to 1 another. also our perseption of these words translated, is often how a language is changed, if there is no word for 1 thing in reality, it is made, copied, and changed accordingly.

like envy for a kind of untouchable love... new word: Enpasshablectism!

(say that 5 times faster! )

as well, i see no reason to disprove you! i just want mine to be in mans words as well, like do you ever hear your neighbor say: "did you see god this weekend?"

i have seen people and been at fear, they are animals and would kill me the further from home i go, but are we not from the same family? look at where we have been living all our live's, on earth!

but a man with a gun would see me look at him and say i have faith in him and would kill me for it, the great war to make a god is here, not the great war FOR a god.

you need proof what you believe is not true? i can't prove that, but i can prove to you that the faithful would not defend the world because they defend the human race, they would do it for their god, and the teaching of those who do not know.

that is wrong, and is false love for those they do not even know, i wish to unite people, not in belief in superficial promises, but in the belief no 1 human should kill their own, destroy their culture, rape their women and children, pass bad words to good people, harm the weak, pay no mind to the greater or few, steal food as ransom, go into death to kill others only as faith in the after-life, lead children blindly, act inhuman for their gods sake, or make an excuse for doing all of the above... we must equalize our race; stop global warming, control population problems, take back half the 40% of the worlds wealth, from the richest 1% and use it to make other places just as grand, we need to improve our habitat, stop cleaning up for trash makers so they might see what they are doing, allow better communication between nations, expand mineral mining in space, destroy religious and agenda based advertising and reduce it to fact, last on this list, is to be able to stand in front of your fellow man, and say you have faith in him, and not be killed.

you stand behind a bloody history, betsy, you just might be friends with an Assassin...

would you die for your god? or for a stranger? which do you love more?

[betsy]

Besides faith, what empirical evidence do you have that it is YOUR God that exists in the 'after-life' (if there is an after-life)?

This guy claims empircal evidence of the afterlife. But if you go through there with a closed and totally skeptical mind, don't even bother visiting his site. link

I visited and did a quick scan...and the "deathbed vision" caught my attention. I decided to terminate further reading, at least not until after I've presented these "experiences"....

My husband's grandfather resided in a nursing home, still able-minded at aged 105 although had to use a walker to be able to move around. We went to visit after he sent word that he would like me to bring him a dish that he'd enjoyed. So we went to his room and greetings were passed around. Suddenly he asked: "who's that girl?" He was looking in my direction.

My husband hastily explained, "this is my wife ____"

Grandpa waved his explanation away, interrupting him, and with obvious impatience said: "I know your wife! That's your wife (pointed at me)....but I'm asking about the other one over there!" And he was looking past me, towards the door. We both looked around. There was no one else in the room besides us.

My husband just said..."Oh I didn't see her...."

Grandpa said, "well she was there."

We changed the subject and gave him the food he was asking for. And the visit went fine.

Two days later, we got word he died.

Back home, it's old wives tale about people dying seeing apparitions, usually of known dead kins. And such tales seem to be shared by other cultures all over the world.

How did these tales come about? And for it to become almost universal in its appeal?

Personal experiences is not admissible proof (except for the person who had the experience), and of course it is understandable that they are met with skepticisms.

I had one unexplainable experience as a young adult...it suddenly just happened in a span of about 1 month...and then had abruptly stopped. My parents' room, for some reasons, just make my hair seem to prickle...and gave me goose bumps. It didn't happen all the time...only on certain times. But always in that room. It culminated when I used their washroom. I was washing my face by the sink (and had soap on my face so my eyes were closed). I heard someone whispering in my right ear but I couldn't understand what was being said. It was garbled. I can still recall the sensation of breath being puffed as someone speaks in your ear...that tickling sensation. I thought it was my young nephew playing a joke on me...and I told him to stop. I suddenly swung my right arm. No one was there. Boy, did I ever sprint out of there!

I told my brother about it. Of course, Mr Skeptic treated it lightly and gave me a practical advice: "Next time it happens, ask what it is saying. Maybe he's trying to say there's a buried treasure somewhere in here!" Nothing ever happened again. Even the odd sensations I felt in the room had stopped. To this day I am thinking, was it maybe because I blabbed about it?

The house we're living in now sometimes....give out some sort of "vibes." There are no apparitions...or no moving objects...or noises in the night. It's just that "feeling." And it comes only once in a while.

But I do not feel threatened. I don't know why but I am convinced whatever it is, it is "friendly."

One time I mentioned it to my husband, and he answered "yes, I know what you mean. I saw shadows." But he said it like a joke. So I didn't pursue the conversation.

Then we were socializing and talking with friends and the conversation turned to unexplainable stuffs...and he brought up the shadows. So I asked, "you mean you really saw shadows?" He said, "Not directly seen them. Just like movements by the side of my vision."

I said I thought he was joking when he mentioned them before. He said he didn't want to scare me.

I know of someone who'd said she actually saw one and described what she saw. It was corroborated by another (who had never met her). Part of me is still skeptic too...for it's hard to readily believe when someone else is giving an unexplainable account.

I feel so confident that there is something beyond death. Whatever or however it is, I do not know.

But we just do not simply ceased to be.

Numerous personal accounts all over the world, although cannot be proven....cannot simply be dismissed.

[betsy]

you stand behind a bloody history, betsy, you just might be friends with an Assassin...

would you die for your god? or for a stranger? which do you love more?

What history is not tainted with blood?

We've heard of people doing some heroic deeds. I read of a man who jumped in icy waters to try and save a stranger. The teachings of my God indicate that giving one's life for a stranger is also like dying for Him.

[betsy]

i wish to unite people, not in belief in superficial promises, but in the belief no 1 human should kill their own, destroy their culture, rape their women and children, pass bad words to good people, harm the weak, pay no mind to the greater or few, steal food as ransom, go into death to kill others only as faith in the after-life, lead children blindly, act inhuman for their gods sake, or make an excuse for doing all of the above... we must equalize our race; stop global warming, control population problems, take back half the 40% of the worlds wealth, from the richest 1% and use it to make other places just as grand, we need to improve our habitat, stop cleaning up for trash makers so they might see what they are doing, allow better communication between nations, expand mineral mining in space, destroy religious and agenda based advertising and reduce it to fact, last on this list, is to be able to stand in front of your fellow man, and say you have faith in him, and not be killed.

So did Jesus. Was not His teachings about love?

He had warned of temptations in several passages, and He knows the path to salvation is narrow indeed.

Your wishes for mankind are noble....but you forget one thing: human failings

The irresistible pull of self-gratification, greed and lust for power.

you stand behind a bloody history, betsy, you just might be friends with an Assassin...

would you die for your god? or for a stranger? which do you love more?

But who had tainted history with blood, Dark Angel?

Man.

[GostHacked]

Interesting stuff there Betsy.

One day I was sitting on the kitchen floor at a friends place, we all were talking about the afterlife and communicating with the dead. I said aloud 'Lords of the Underworld, if you are here, give us a sign.' The kitchen window above the sink slammed shut. Freakish yes, but in retrospect, it was something else that closed with window. Old wood frame window, slipped loose from vibrations in the house (like us walking around ect) I don't know exaclty how the window was closed, but I will rule out supernatural causes or anyone from beyond the grave.

The mind can play tricks on you. It has done the same thing to me. Think and beleive things are there when they are in fact not. You can even trick your own psychology into believing something that is not there, or has never existed. Hallucinations, trances do not take us to another higher plane, Just seems to make us think different about the 'plane' we are currently on.

I have still been raised on Christian values? I will call them Moral/Ethical values and will not attach it to any religion. They may have given us a base to work with, but as a race/species, we have really outgrown this archaic concept of religion. We can now move past that to really reach our potential.

I had a close friend die in a car accident a couple years after high school. I never got to say goodbye or really tell her how I felt about her. (I was quite attracted to her) So I got word one day about the accident and I was really upset and kind of depressed. I had a dream a day or two later about being in a common place we used to go (local watering hole, well it looked like dance clubs we used to go to) The surroundings were familiar but different. I was standing at a table when she came over to me in the dream. She wanted to say goodbye to me. I told her I was sad she was no longer with us. She said she will always be with us. I never had a dream about her again. EVER. I will chalk this up to my own brain wanting some closure on it all. So my dream was about ME wanting to let go and say good bye. She did not come back from the grave to talk to me in this dream. It was all in my own head.

Still much to learn about the ID.

[betsy]

This guy claims empircal evidence of the afterlife. But if you go through there with a closed and totally skeptical mind, don't even bother visiting his site. link

Skeptisicm is what helps you seperate the bullshit from the truth, so I don't think I will be entering that site, because I would have to excersize skeptisicm. But seeing as how you don't excersize skeptisicm I would encourage you to buy the Egyptian Book of the Dead...this will tell you how to navigate the afterlife, if you do not excersize skeptisism you will find your self very well informed.

Research and open-mindedness is what helps you separate the b.s from the truth.

Thank you Newbie for the link. It will take a good time reading through it.

[betsy]

One day I was sitting on the kitchen floor at a friends place, we all were talking about the afterlife and communicating with the dead. I said aloud 'Lords of the Underworld, if you are here, give us a sign.' The kitchen window above the sink slammed shut. Freakish yes, but in retrospect, it was something else that closed with window. Old wood frame window, slipped loose from vibrations in the house (like us walking around ect) I don't know exaclty how the window was closed, but I will rule out supernatural causes or anyone from beyond the grave.

The mind can play tricks on you. It has done the same thing to me. Think and beleive things are there when they are in fact not. You can even trick your own psychology into believing something that is not there, or has never existed. Hallucinations, trances do not take us to another higher plane, Just seems to make us think different about the 'plane' we are currently on.

Gee, you really did that? Calling to the Lord of The Underworld? What would've happened if a loud voice answered with a booming, "Yes?"...and it was, unknown to you, coming from the tv nextdoor?

You see, what had happened to me just happened. I was not expecting something like it...nor was I pre-occupied about it. Unlike you, I was not doing anything that could be said it was psychologically induced.

One recent experience in our house now happened while I was engrossed in a chick-flick comedy! It just suddenly intruded without me having anything to do or think that might've psychologically induced it to happen. My attention was in the comedy movie I was watching!

I've never dabbled with nor participated in any mediums trying to contact the dead.....actually I'll be the skeptic in the group if ever I did happen to find myself in a circle. I still am skeptics about "mediums"...and anything that can be used to exploit and scam others.

My mom had a near death experience...and to this day, at the back of my mind I'm still asking, "was she hallucinating?" The only sure thing I've noticed about her was the gungho zeal she tackled helping in the renovations of the church after that experience. Whatever it was she saw...or believed she saw...obviously was real to her. And it spurred her on and inspired her. She was quite old at the time too.

Who am I to conclude then that what she saw was not real? What is my proof for my argument...other than say, "well, it couldn't be real. There could be some explanations to that...some rational cause."

But who am I to say? I may try to rationalize it....but what if it's something that cannot be rationalized....at this present time?

What if it's something beyond science's capability right now?

Twenty years ago, DNA experimentation and cloning were purely cheesy sci-fi movie stuffs! Now, it's real!

How can you differentiate hallucinations and delusions from real? It's so easy to write it off as halluscination or delusion. But why is it so hard to think that someone can be possibly experiencing something real?

I had a close friend die in a car accident a couple years after high school. I never got to say goodbye or really tell her how I felt about her. (I was quite attracted to her) So I got word one day about the accident and I was really upset and kind of depressed. I had a dream a day or two later about being in a common place we used to go (local watering hole, well it looked like dance clubs we used to go to) The surroundings were familiar but different. I was standing at a table when she came over to me in the dream. She wanted to say goodbye to me. I told her I was sad she was no longer with us. She said she will always be with us. I never had a dream about her again. EVER. I will chalk this up to my own brain wanting some closure on it all. So my dream was about ME wanting to let go and say good bye. She did not come back from the grave to talk to me in this dream. It was all in my own head.

Or maybe you've reached out telepathically to her and she responded because she felt the same way towards you! Or it was like something you said: your brain wanting some closure. Who knows?

You opted to discount the other possibilities...and instead chosed to rationalize it....even using the same terminology that is commonly ingrained into our lives these days, "closure."

If you were telling this story ten years ago, I doubt that "closure" would be the very word that you would've used.

Still much to learn about the ID.

For sure. That's why we cannot simply dismiss all the numerous personal accounts happening all over the world from different cultures, different stations in life, and information depicted on Newbie's link.

I personally believe science is just simply not that fully developed yet...to tackle these kinds of things.

[GostHacked]

What if it's something beyond science's capability right now?

Twenty years ago, DNA experimentation and cloning were purely cheesy sci-fi movie stuffs! Now, it's real

Besty, you are quite right on this. Science is ever expanding our understanding of our surroundings and how we interact with them. Faith and religion were used to explain things we were ignorant about, but as science progresses, we as a race understand more. Science has been used to prove the world is round. People who had faith were the ones thinking the earth was flat and you would fall off the edge of the ocean into space. (without thinking that all the water would run off as well, and the oceans would be dry) Faith and logic sometimes do not belong in the same sentence.

You had faith the world was flat, now there is evidence to show and prove the world is round and you now commonly accept it as such. We learn. Now your faith is no longer valid once you understand the true situation (through scientific and analytical methods) I have never seen religion/faith prove anything. Science usually debunks it, or sometimes does not have an answer. That does not mean we won't find one. I put my faith in science. It has proven itself over the years, and more so as we progress in our own evolutional understanding of our environment. Faith and religion is stagnant and cannot offer anymore than some basic values for our daily lives, which is not bad in itself. But other than that, religion as I see it, has outlived it's purpose. Time for use to open up the mind and understand what things are about. How does one do that? Using science, methods to prove and disprove things. I like proof, for I am skeptic. Always have been. Simply because, science has time and time again proven 'faith' wrong.

OK, so there is science we KNOW of 100%, and there is science we are not sure of. Theoretical sciences. But again most of the theories are based on other known scientific facts, and are put into a way that seems to make sense. Sometimes real science will prove these theories wrong as we understand more. Here is how I see it now. Science is about the understanding of things, through methods to prove right or wrong. Religion/Faith just tells us how it is without much to back it up, and you should just accept it as such. I hate being told what to do and think. Also with this kind of stagnation in place with religion, I do not believe it allows a person to 'grow and understand' things. Keeps them in a narrow frame of mind. And for the most part, faithers like science as long as it does not contradict their faith. That seems dangerous to me.

[betsy]

What if it's something beyond science's capability right now?

Twenty years ago, DNA experimentation and cloning were purely cheesy sci-fi movie stuffs! Now, it's real

Besty, you are quite right on this. Science is ever expanding our understanding of our surroundings and how we interact with them. Faith and religion were used to explain things we were ignorant about, but as science progresses, we as a race understand more. Science has been used to prove the world is round. People who had faith were the ones thinking the earth was flat and you would fall off the edge of the ocean into space. (without thinking that all the water would run off as well, and the oceans would be dry) Faith and logic sometimes do not belong in the same sentence.

You had faith the world was flat, now there is evidence to show and prove the world is round and you now commonly accept it as such. We learn. Now your faith is no longer valid once you understand the true situation (through scientific and analytical methods) I have never seen religion/faith prove anything. Science usually debunks it, or sometimes does not have an answer. That does not mean we won't find one. I put my faith in science. It has proven itself over the years, and more so as we progress in our own evolutional understanding of our environment. Faith and religion is stagnant and cannot offer anymore than some basic values for our daily lives, which is not bad in itself. But other than that, religion as I see it, has outlived it's purpose. Time for use to open up the mind and understand what things are about. How does one do that? Using science, methods to prove and disprove things. I like proof, for I am skeptic. Always have been. Simply because, science has time and time again proven 'faith' wrong.

OK, so there is science we KNOW of 100%, and there is science we are not sure of. Theoretical sciences. But again most of the theories are based on other known scientific facts, and are put into a way that seems to make sense. Sometimes real science will prove these theories wrong as we understand more. Here is how I see it now. Science is about the understanding of things, through methods to prove right or wrong. Religion/Faith just tells us how it is without much to back it up, and you should just accept it as such. I hate being told what to do and think. Also with this kind of stagnation in place with religion, I do not believe it allows a person to 'grow and understand' things. Keeps them in a narrow frame of mind. And for the most part, faithers like science as long as it does not contradict their faith. That seems dangerous to me.

Scientists debunked faith just like liberals debunked religion...but that doesn't mean science debunked faith.

Scientists require proof...they work on a different ground. They can't prove the tenets of religion anymore than they can disprove them. This is a real dilemma for scientists. Of course not all scientists fall in this category. There are brilliant scientists who have faith, and who reconcile their faith and science naturally.

Everybody believed the Big Bang of Steven Hawkins was a brilliant revelation. Now it's proven to be wrong.

Secularists believed in the Communist state, in Marxism...in socialism. Now it's proved to be not only unworkable, but dangerous.

Canadian liberals continue to tout the merits of taxpayer-supported medicare...but it doesn't work. Clearly it's going broke. The basic belief is that the state should pay for the wlefare of all its citizens. Communism tried that. Yet we persist. Why won't they budge? Faith!

Science requires faith. You have to believe in your premise before you can begin. This is fine. The problem is many scientists, like liberals, do not give up when their faith proves to be misguided.

There are many examples of science proving to be stabbing in the dark: theories regarding the extinction of dinosaurs (asteroids, climate change, axis shifts). How about today's theories of climate change, none of which are completely convincing. The Mycenean civilization (invasions from the north, climate change, fires, tyranny). And the ultimate example is creation of the universe. You name it, it's been discussed.

What theory is behind door #3?

You say: "Science is about the understanding of things, through methods to prove right or wrong."

If you mean it is about trying to understand events around us....then what is religion, if not the attempt to understand events around us....the meaning of life.

But then there is no point in arguing for it is all a matter of belief....of faith. You have as much faith in your science as I have in my belief.

[gc1765]

Everybody believed the Big Bang of Steven Hawkins was a brilliant revelation. Now it's proven to be wrong.

Proven by whom? And by the way, it was Lemaitre (a catholic priest) who proposed the big bang theory.

Science requires faith. You have to believe in your premise before you can begin. This is fine. The problem is many scientists, like liberals, do not give up when their faith proves to be misguided.

Many of the most important scientific discoveries happened "by accident" (quantum theory, relativity etc.). That is, the premise turned out to be wrong, the results did not match what was expected. So, that theory had to be abandoned and a new theory had to be developed. If you already know (or think you know) the result of your experiment, you won't learn much....unless of course you don't get the results you expected. In that case, the explanation can overturn what was believed previously. This is unlike religion, where the dogma is so tightly held, that it's almost impossible to change. Only when it is undeniable, like the fact that the earth goes around the sun (and not vice-versa), will religion change it's mind. And in that particular case, only after the church threatened scientists (ie galileo) with their life for proving them wrong.

[newbie]

Science has been used to prove the world is round.

Point of interest: Socrates said the earth was round centuries before the flat earth society even existed. I don't believe Socrates used science, just faith. Or maybe a lucky guess.

[DarkAngel_]

But who had tainted history with blood, Dark Angel?

Man.

and so i say there is only man, as in we have made our way too narrow.

you speak of that bloody histroy as if there is only one broad history, science was the foundation of finding! is not the teaching of morals finding?

in my point, you must detach from self-indulgent emotions, look at things more situationally, and perhapes change constantly! but then that would take out a uniqness, do you fear loosing individual belief?

science is a child finding. religion is a founded child, we look for truth and must be proven true, but your truth must be proven wrong?! no, i refuse to waist time geussing, give me a telescope, pen, and paper, i shall see!

"might we then look into darkness and see light?" that a blind man saya he can see is a claim, make him walk! he cannot! but indeed he may 'see' more then a thousand men! so if my act be noble, why is it interprited as a blind man?

this is all i ask... do not walk stait into trouble for all of us! if you do it will be trouble for us all! shed your faith, everyone, and reform it, so that we will not war! would you? no, i know the faithful will not, as pretector of the true faith why should they? as well as protecting their kin from evil, the faithful would kill men they consider evil, and as you say, "the path is narrow' so indeed they would kill those who stray! the church has shown this in the past, so why do yopu continue to fight for them?

why not fight for the stranger?

[DarkAngel_]

is anyone interested in extra sensory? that may be our scientific link to "other worldlyness" exept it is in this world, i'll look it up and see, also i agree that religion was formed as a perseption of what was never looked at, but science, not religion, has made us benifit from it, all a crying statue does is give hope, or take every last bit of it away.....

[Slavik44]

Research and open-mindedness is what helps you separate the b.s from the truth.

Research correct, if a claim is made you need to properly evaluate that claim, and it must be done in a skeptical and inquisitive manner or you are not doing your proper research. After your research is done, you simply evaluate the claim, is there enough evidence for it, in which case accepting it doesn't require anything but the facts you have. The only reason to demand someone not to be skeptical is to desire someone not to do their proper research. And to demand someone not to do their proper research, is to suggest that ultimately you have no confidence in ability of the claim to be verified, and if you have no confidence in the validity of the claim, you are believing due to desire and not as a result of evidence or research.

Given that you are promting the habbit of research, and given that you believe in the God of the Bible, perhaps you can answer my questions.

Can you;

1. Empirically proove to me there is a God?

2. Empirically proove there is only One God (assuming you believe in only one)

3. Empirically proove that it is infact your God?

4. Empirically proove that the holy book(s) associated with your God are in fact divinely inspired?

5. Empirically proove that all events recorded in that holy book actually did happen?

[geoffrey]

Scientific method is based on the proving wrong of set out theories, no? (I'm not a science person, I'd be the first to admit).

So then really Slavik, I could turn those questions back to you and say, empirically prove to me that God does not exist.

You can't, there is no possible way. Faith and science have as much to do with each other as white wine and steak. You can't use them together, I'd suggest that they exist outside of each other's grasp really.

[gc1765]

Scientific method is based on the proving wrong of set out theories, no? (I'm not a science person, I'd be the first to admit).

So then really Slavik, I could turn those questions back to you and say, empirically prove to me that God does not exist.

You can't, there is no possible way. Faith and science have as much to do with each other as white wine and steak. You can't use them together, I'd suggest that they exist outside of each other's grasp really.

But scientific theories are based on, and confirmed by, evidence. If further evidence contradicts that theory, then yes it would have to be modified. The problem is that there is no verifiable evidence at all that God exists. If there was any evidence at all, then the theory could be taken seriously. It's like asking me to prove that you are not an alien. I can not prove that you are not an alien, but I have no reason at all to believe you are. Therefore, it's safe to say that you are probably not an alien.

Also, science can disprove many aspects of individual religions, for example a lot of the bible can be disproven. Also, science can disprove the idea of an omnipotent, all-knowing God. Common sense would also suggest that it wouldn't make much sense for the God who created us to also judge us. Afterall, how can we help but be 'sinful' when we are nothing but God's creatures? By judging us, He is really judging himself. Doesn't make much sense to me