What do you believe?

[Charles Anthony]

I spent many years asking him for it.

What exactly do you ask?

[cybercoma]

You all know thoughts can be measured with equipment, right? Scientists and doctors can see different parts of the brain become active when people think about things.

How exactly does God read this chemical reactions in the brain?

I mean, some people speak out loud and expect that God has ears sensitive enough to hear them. Hearing jets take off must be deafening. But most people simply believe he hears your prayers that you silently think to yourself.

I'm just wondering, of all the people who will die of cancer tomorrow, I'm sure the vast majority of them are being prayed for, why doesn't God answer their friends'/family's prayers?

[Charles Anthony]

why doesn't God answer their friends'/family's prayers?

Why should God answer them?

[Slavik44]

I spent many years asking him for it.

What exactly do you ask?

For a million dollars, a porsche, and a playboy model for every day of the week and two on sunday. What do you think someone who is trying desperately to find a way to preserve a belief in a figure that was his whole explained reason for existing asks for?

[ClearWest]

What are the other options? Let the world continue in wickedness, thus accomplishing nothing and leading billions upon billions of souls to damnation? God's children cannot progress eternally in a world where wickedness prevails. God had to create a chance for future generations to choose righteousness - the wickedness of the people in that day made that very unlikely. Remember, God sees the big picture.

Hey I ain't the one who has a book that lectures his followers on how faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains, but at the same time un-willing to work with 8 people who poses faith, to make right the world.

He obviously was willing to work with 8 people - that's why he let them survive the flood and trusted them with the daunting task of repopulating the entire earth.

I can, however, offer the following insight:

--What is required: Hebrews 11

--An example of a small, but powerful, sign of confirmation from God: Luke 24:32

--Again, what we can do: Matthew 16:25

--and one of my favourites (because it helped me very much in my spiritual pursuit), how to know: John 7:17

All them I find to be un-provable claims contingent on Faith. Faith is Useless it is why there are 2 Billion Christians, 1.5 Billion Muslims, 1 Billions Hindu's, an assortment of religions with 300 million followers each, and an assortment below that adding probabley another 200 million. And then within almost every religion, there are sects and denominations that each believe something different, or split on a number of major fundemental issues. All these people have some faith, many of these people do give their lives to their God/gods. With out evidence faith is an unreasonable requirement that leads to a widley divergent number of religions each claiming to have the truth, each requiring faith, and offering little in the way of evidence. All believing they got it right, all armed with their faith.

All those billions of people that are not of my faith--God's message is available to them too. We want them to be brought into the fold as well. Even if they go to different churches, as long as the person earnestly tries to seek God and does what is expected of them (to the extent of their knowledge), I think they will be right in the sight of Christ. If they do wrong out of ignorance, I believe they will have the chance in the afterlife to learn God's way (Timothy 1:13). But all we can do is keep trying, keep teaching and learning and progressing.

God has offered you the evidence. Yes it takes faith - much like how a fire requires fuelling. You can't just stand by a fireplace and demand fire. You have to act first. God gave you the instructions. They're in the Bible. There's nothing difficult about it... God set a clear path. If it's too much for you to come up off of your high horse and show a bit of faith, then I guess we should just leave it at that. As for me, I've seen enough evidence, enough miracles at God's hands to know that he exists.

If you really feel that you have asked sincerely and gotten no answer - fine. But something tells me that you don't want it to be true... because that would (perhaps) require you to give up the things of the world that you have become so comfortable with. Are you willing to give up all of your sins to know God? Your answer is none of my business, but it's not easy to feel the presence of God when your heart is blotched with sin. I don't know what you have to lose.

[ClearWest]

I'm just wondering, of all the people who will die of cancer tomorrow, I'm sure the vast majority of them are being prayed for, why doesn't God answer their friends'/family's prayers?

That's a good question, and a frequently asked one. My answer is this: God isn't a genie. And there are reasons for the trials which we go through on earth, we can't just wish them away. Instead, in our prayers, we should ask for comfort and guidance throughout our trials. (1 Corinthians 1:3-6)

[betsy]

God reminds me of another fairy tale figure you may be familiar with around this time of year. You know, "He sees you when you're sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake." Remember boys and girls, if you are really good you will get rewarded, but if you are bad.........

You mean St. Nick!

So he's been invented by whom? The Bible?

More likely he's been conjured and given a task to help parents get their children to listen to them.

At least, St Nick is your POSITIVE VERSION of the BOOGEYMAN.... or the BIG BAD WOLF...you know, the ones who'll carry children off and eat them!

If it's okay to scare the pants off children using negative scary tactical mental imageries of being torn to pieces by wolves or being abducted by the boogeyman...what's so very wrong about using a positive method that also bring about innocent joy?

Funny how St Nick's method is suddenly a point of criticism...when modern day educators and child advocates insists that the methods of "positive reinforcement" is the way to go in disciplining children....which very much includes negotiations and bribing them!

St Nick is doing all that and more!

Gee...talk about confusions....

[betsy]

Death is the end. There is no heaven, no hell, no reincarnation, no resurrection. You are gone.

Sad eh. Well, the truth hurts sometimes.

Finito.

That thought must be terrible for those borne with "abnormalities"....or for those who have not had the luck to be born with a silver spoon, but had to sift through garbage to survive, or for those who'd had terrible accidents that cut their abilities to enjoy life...or for anyone who thought something is still missing in their lives and that time is running out...or the old folks waiting for their time to run out in nursing homes.

Darn, you've got only one shot at being....and then you become nothing.

It must be hard for some wallowing in miseries to accept the truth that they are in miseries because of one simple fact: you're born out of luck.

No one can even say..."better luck next time..."

No, it's just simple...."too bad."

Maybe that's why we've got people who decides to go out with a big bang...."darn! My life is the pits and there is nothing after this. I might as well end it all now....but I'm taking as many of you as I can with me!"

Or people galore popping anti-depressant pills! Because it's quite a depressing theory indeed.

I wonder if you'd ever come to this bielief if it happens that you are having a miserable life....if you happen to be one those homeless roaming the streets?

People in Africa and everywhere will be devastated by this "revelation." There is so much sufferings in this world.

Anyway....how did you come up with this conclusion?

[Charles Anthony]

For a million dollars, a porsche, and a playboy model for every day of the week and two on sunday. What do you think someone who is trying desperately to find a way to preserve a belief in a figure that was his whole explained reason for existing asks for?

What do I think? I think you will eventually find a reason to exist on your own.

[betsy]

God reminds me of another fairy tale figure you may be familiar with around this time of year. You know, "He sees you when you're sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake." Remember boys and girls, if you are really good you will get rewarded, but if you are bad.........

You mean St. Nick!

So he's been invented by whom? The Bible?

More likely he's been conjured and given a task to help parents get their children to listen to them.

At least, St Nick is your POSITIVE VERSION of the BOOGEYMAN.... or the BIG BAD WOLF...you know, the ones who'll carry children off and eat them!

If it's okay to scare the pants off children using negative scary tactical mental imageries of being torn to pieces by wolves or being abducted by the boogeyman...what's so very wrong about using a positive method that also bring about innocent joy?

Funny how St Nick's method is suddenly a point of criticism...when modern day educators and child advocates insists that the methods of "positive reinforcement" is the way to go in disciplining children....which very much includes negotiations and bribing them!

St Nick is doing all that and more!

Gee...talk about confusions....

Actually, I would like to correct something with what I said about St. Nick.

Santa Clause....that's whom you're refrring to...is not a Christian aspect of Christmas at all. His name "Santa" may mean saint in Spanish...and he may be referred to as St Nicholas...but he has nothing to do with Christian Christmas. I don't think he's into any religion at all. Just like the tree has nothing to do with Christmas...except for pagans perhaps. But they nevertheless got tied neatly with Christian Christmas.

The gift-giving part may've been derived from Christian Christmas (three kings bearing gifts)....but you've gotta admit....the concept of Santa Claus now, as far as kids are concerned, is all about..."what will I get from Santa!" So very much into the "ME" concept.... very much fitting into the mold of today's values!

So the real traditional meaning of Christmas got even "bartardized" further into becoming so commercialized. It became a materialistic's golden event....complete with a wishlist!

And who are the ones most likely responsible for turning the Christian Christmas into something so shallow?

[cybercoma]

That's a good question, and a frequently asked one. My answer is this: God isn't a genie. And there are reasons for the trials which we go through on earth, we can't just wish them away. Instead, in our prayers, we should ask for comfort and guidance throughout our trials. (1 Corinthians 1:3-6)

If that's true, then I don't wish to follow a God that allows 6 million Jews to be slaughtered, or the God of Scripture that stones an entire family for the acts of one man, or a God that saves a man who allows his daughters to be gang-raped then impregnates them himself. These aren't trials, these are cruel. And to tell someone that their entire culture was nearly wiped out because God was just 'testing' them, is cruel and insensitive. Tell a 5 year old child that their parents were killed because God is trying to teach them a valuable lesson and I'd consider you a monster.

[cybercoma]

You mean St. Nick!

So he's been invented by whom? The Bible?

More likely he's been conjured and given a task to help parents get their children to listen to them.

At least, St Nick is your POSITIVE VERSION of the BOOGEYMAN.... or the BIG BAD WOLF...you know, the ones who'll carry children off and eat them!

If it's okay to scare the pants off children using negative scary tactical mental imageries of being torn to pieces by wolves or being abducted by the boogeyman...what's so very wrong about using a positive method that also bring about innocent joy?

Funny how St Nick's method is suddenly a point of criticism...when modern day educators and child advocates insists that the methods of "positive reinforcement" is the way to go in disciplining children....which very much includes negotiations and bribing them!

St Nick is doing all that and more!

Gee...talk about confusions....

How about the image of their friends, who are of another religion, burning in hell and being tormented for all of eternity? How about the image that they too will suffer horribly if they believe unquestionably in the God fo their parents?

You're right, the negative imagery is disgusting.

[cybercoma]

Finito.

That thought must be terrible for those borne with "abnormalities"....or for those who have not had the luck to be born with a silver spoon, but had to sift through garbage to survive, or for those who'd had terrible accidents that cut their abilities to enjoy life...or for anyone who thought something is still missing in their lives and that time is running out...or the old folks waiting for their time to run out in nursing homes.

Darn, you've got only one shot at being....and then you become nothing.

It must be hard for some wallowing in miseries to accept the truth that they are in miseries because of one simple fact: you're born out of luck.

No one can even say..."better luck next time..."

No, it's just simple...."too bad."

Maybe that's why we've got people who decides to go out with a big bang...."darn! My life is the pits and there is nothing after this. I might as well end it all now....but I'm taking as many of you as I can with me!"

Or people galore popping anti-depressant pills! Because it's quite a depressing theory indeed.

I wonder if you'd ever come to this bielief if it happens that you are having a miserable life....if you happen to be one those homeless roaming the streets?

People in Africa and everywhere will be devastated by this "revelation." There is so much sufferings in this world.

Anyway....how did you come up with this conclusion?

Or the idea that we should treat one another with kindness and respect, regardless of what religious label was slapped on us as children (since, that's one of the world's biggest dividers), because we only have each other and the time we're living on this planet.

Depressing thought? The chances of any of us existing is unbelievably remote. The combinations that are possible when procreating is nearly endless and of all those possible combinations it was you that came to be. The fact that we're going to die is a miracle, because that means we've had the chance to live.

And as far as fearing death, I've found more comfort in Mark Twain than my own Catholic religion that I was raised on:

I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.

And, if you can wrap your mind around it, Bertrand Russell's analysis of death is most enlightening:

I believe when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting. Many a man has borne himself proudly on the scaffold; surely the same pride should teach us to think truly about man's place in the world. Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cosy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigour, and the great spaces have a splendour of their own.

[betsy]

And, if you can wrap your mind around it, Bertrand Russell's analysis of death is most enlightening:

I believe when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting. Many a man has borne himself proudly on the scaffold; surely the same pride should teach us to think truly about man's place in the world. Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cosy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigour, and the great spaces have a splendour of their own.

So? It's his own analysis! That's his belief!

Practically everyone can create or make up their own theory. Dark Angel has his own theory! He can write and promote his own theory.....get published...make money!

Does that make it an absolute truth? No.

And what's he on about scaffolds? How many of those who marched proudly on the scaffold had done so without believing in a God?

What does he know what drove the dignity and courage of those who walked to their deaths?

Who do you think is the one most likely to march on to death with dignity, courage and pride...the one who thinks there's something that awaits him on the other side...or the one who believes after that rope snaps his neck, it means kaput!

I got to admit...he is poetic. Romantically so.

[betsy]

You mean St. Nick!

So he's been invented by whom? The Bible?

More likely he's been conjured and given a task to help parents get their children to listen to them.

At least, St Nick is your POSITIVE VERSION of the BOOGEYMAN.... or the BIG BAD WOLF...you know, the ones who'll carry children off and eat them!

If it's okay to scare the pants off children using negative scary tactical mental imageries of being torn to pieces by wolves or being abducted by the boogeyman...what's so very wrong about using a positive method that also bring about innocent joy?

Funny how St Nick's method is suddenly a point of criticism...when modern day educators and child advocates insists that the methods of "positive reinforcement" is the way to go in disciplining children....which very much includes negotiations and bribing them!

St Nick is doing all that and more!

Gee...talk about confusions....

How about the image of their friends, who are of another religion, burning in hell and being tormented for all of eternity? How about the image that they too will suffer horribly if they believe unquestionably in the God fo their parents?

You're right, the negative imagery is disgusting.

I'm not saying there are no negative imageries in religion-related techings...but that's not what I'm responding to. My reply is directed to this statement by Melanie:

God reminds me of another fairy tale figure you may be familiar with around this time of year. You know, "He sees you when you're sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake." Remember boys and girls, if you are really good you will get rewarded, but if you are bad.........

I ask...what's wrong about that? Is that not a sample of the modern day educators' version of "positive reinforcement" to discipline?

She suddenly find something wrong with that...simply because she thinks it's from the Christian aspect!

She's giving a knee-jerk reaction to the concept of Santa Claus (which I think had been so commercialized anyway...and I think it is abused...and I certainly don't buy into the notions of today's educators that you need to bribe children)! A lot of left-leaning educators seem as confused as the children!

[Melanie_]

I'm not saying there are no negative imageries in religion-related techings...but that's not what I'm responding to. My reply is directed to this statement by Melanie:

God reminds me of another fairy tale figure you may be familiar with around this time of year. You know, "He sees you when you're sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sake." Remember boys and girls, if you are really good you will get rewarded, but if you are bad.........

I ask...what's wrong about that? Is that not a sample of the modern day educators' version of "positive reinforcement" to discipline?

She suddenly find something wrong with that...simply because she thinks it's from the Christian aspect!

She's giving a knee-jerk reaction to the concept of Santa Claus (which I think had been so commercialized anyway...and I think it is abused...and I certainly don't buy into the notions of today's educators that you need to bribe children)! A lot of left-leaning educators seem as confused as the children!

You have completely misinterpreted what I said. Leaving aside the commercialism, Santa Claus is used to manipulate children into doing what adults want (caveat - I am as guilty of using this as anyone else!) The concept of God is used similarly - do what he tells you to, and you will be rewarded. If you don't, you will be punished - only instead of a lump of coal in your stocking, you will burn with the coal for all eternity. Both are based on an external motivation for rewards or punishment, not by internal motivation to do what is right because it is right.

Positive discipline has nothing to do with manipulation - it has to do with people (adults or children) determining their behaviour based on their own powers of reasoning, not based on some artificial benefit or threat.

[Slavik44]

God has offered you the evidence.

I read your reply and I figure at this point we are just reiterating what we have already said and are not progressing. But on this point, you say God has offered me the evidence but it takes faith. Can I then ask you to present that evidence?

[DarkAngel_]

And, if you can wrap your mind around it, Bertrand Russell's analysis of death is most enlightening:

I believe when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is nonetheless true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting. Many a man has borne himself proudly on the scaffold; surely the same pride should teach us to think truly about man's place in the world. Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cosy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigour, and the great spaces have a splendour of their own.

So? It's his own analysis! That's his belief!

Practically everyone can create or make up their own theory. Dark Angel has his own theory! He can write and promote his own theory.....get published...make money!

Does that make it an absolute truth? No.

And what's he on about scaffolds? How many of those who marched proudly on the scaffold had done so without believing in a God?

What does he know what drove the dignity and courage of those who walked to their deaths?

Who do you think is the one most likely to march on to death with dignity, courage and pride...the one who thinks there's something that awaits him on the other side...or the one who believes after that rope snaps his neck, it means kaput!

I got to admit...he is poetic. Romantically so.

thank you! thats exactly what i was trying to say, i made a theory, you all made theories, men 1000 years ago made theories, that we are all wrong cant be so, i geuss what i'm asking is for kinship in the finding of the truth! so, is science the proof of existance in time? or are we to follow 'the path of roses' so to speak...

and i'd agree, it is very poetic indeed!

[DarkAngel_]

i promised not to shoot any 1 theory down, but why do you all follow 1 theory and not make one more true to you? the scale of belief in the masses, does indeed separate us into 'war tribes' if that is what you'd like to call it, the organized complex of an 'underground' religion, is quite hostile, like early Satanic and Pagan ritualism, now i believe they have changed, but i also see Christian/Catholic based religions branching off, picketing for oblivious reasons that make them seem hostile! has mankind become broken?

alas, i see that in the complex society we choose to live in today, one side will get the motivation and inspiration to make a terrible move, and all the organized faiths will fight to their death, pride and belt, furry and courage, all down, down further into a broken world, i smile at a word unspoken, in other words it's hard for a believer to stay quit, but i will, who would not take up arms against evil? and good... and scream bloody murder as they do so?

[DarkAngel_]

also, if anyone is interested in faster then light travel, which might i add could be benifical in finding truth, look up:

1. Cherenkov Effect

2. Third Party Observers

3. Shadows and Light Spots

4. Rigid Bodies

5. Phase Velocity

6. Superluminal Galaxies

7. Relativistic Rocket

8. Speed of Gravity

9. EPR Paradox

10. Virtual Photons

11. Quantum Tunnelling

12. Casimir Effect

13. Expansion of the Universe

14. The moon revolves round my head faster than light!

15. What Does Faster Than Light Mean?

16. The Infinite Energy Argument

17. Quantum Field Theory

18. Grandfather Paradox

19. Tachyons

20. Worm Holes

21. Warp Drives

all of these are very interesting, and can be looked up at:

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Rela...ight/FTL.html#1

i love this site, i think its a bit old but, it's still cool.

[ClearWest]

God has offered you the evidence.

I read your reply and I figure at this point we are just reiterating what we have already said and are not progressing. But on this point, you say God has offered me the evidence but it takes faith. Can I then ask you to present that evidence?

Not me personally, no. All I can do is point out the promise that God has made to offer the evidence to all who are faithful. And offer my personal testimony that I know these things are true.

Most of the scriptures that I've mentioned in this thread are about faith, and what comes as a result of faith. But here's one more that I want to share, John 14:21. If you haven't read the previous ones, please do. That's all I really have to say on the subject, and I appreciate the civility that was shown during this discussion. Again, best wishes.

[DarkAngel_]

Not me personally, no. All I can do is point out the promise that God has made to offer the evidence to all who are faithful. And offer my personal testimony that I know these things are true.

Most of the scriptures that I've mentioned in this thread are about faith, and what comes as a result of faith. But here's one more that I want to share, John 14:21. If you haven't read the previous ones, please do. That's all I really have to say on the subject, and I appreciate the civility that was shown during this discussion. Again, best wishes.

Any philosophical or scientific examples on the matter? faith in proof can make one guilty, as one might have been not guilty the faith in his innocence was negated, so are you saying the faith in these proofs negates the possibility of other theories being correct? or is this a 'smart' concept, that in this book is a relevant topic of humanity that might, in common, be the absolute truth without a shadow of a doubt?

i want to see this, i'll read the scripture as well and give you my prospective on this...

[GostHacked]

If god is everything then http://www.tenthdimension.com/flash2.php is god. The TENTH DIMENSION. The infinities of infinities, everything that has is and will ever be can be put into a single point.

Wrap your head around that site for a moment or two.

DarkAngel, this has been one interesting thread to read through so far.

ClearWest, you scare me. You and your kind scare me. I will explain why. It is fanatical in the lengths to which people will go through to convince others, 'prove' to others, that god exists if you truly just shut the fudge up and which people who believe in a god. We ask you why? You say that you can offer no proof and say we must seek it for ourselves and he will be revealed. Is this some sort of game? If you truly have faith, then you cannot question his existence, ever! I like to ask questions. I have always asked questions. I question everything (employers find this out about me right quick!) I am sure you are a decent person with some habits that could affect someone's decision to let you in when that time comes and you stand at the Pearly Gates. But no worries. You can repent everything at that moment and then you are granted forgiveness. During repenting during that moment, do you not think that you are being judged? ANYTHING can be a factor into not getting into this ethereal heaven. Stealing, lying, ect, no matter how small or insignificant the sin is, it is still a sin.

In short, does god exist? NO

In long, does got exist? NO.

At a young age I discovered that god really did not exist. Logicly, it is a contradiction in itself. We are all created by the creator. Who made the creator? What? He was always there you say? And you also say he is everywhere? He is in Casinos with aces to spare. So if there is a creator, that creator must reside somewhere physical. Corporeal. But no, god is everywhere, omnipresent and omnipotent. Ethereal and all around you. God is what people say you believe in when you cannot scientificly explain something. Eventually we will be able to find that out as we progress with our ever expanding understanding of science. Many times before we have put our faith in something and then when science and logic come into play, we end up changing our beliefs, and then in retrospect, 'god, how naive was I to believe in that.. what?' Evolution of the human conciousness!

I could not put my faith in something I could not understand the purpose of. Even before the age of 10 I knew that a god just could not exist when it is all said and done. I never grew up with religion, so I have always been a person outside looking in on religion. I guess I just don't have the inside scoop on the real deal. I find it fascinating that one can put so much faith into something that cannot be understood. I always question people about how they feel the way they do about religion. I just simply cannot wrap my head around the concept of a god. I have an easier time understanding the 10th Dimension.

I just hope the King of All Cosmos does not get drunk one night and just decide to destroy the entire universe and start over. Only so much the Prince can roll up.

The Flying Spaggetti Monster touched us with his noodly appendage. Ramen.

[DarkAngel_]

I just hope the King of All Cosmos does not get drunk one night and just decide to destroy the entire universe and start over. Only so much the Prince can roll up.

The Flying Spaggetti Monster touched us with his noodly appendage. Ramen.

lol...llllllllllloooooooooooooolllllll

ok enough laughing, that was funny, and if you don't mind i'm going to act like i believe in the spaghetti monster for the next few weeks, i agree with you on your prospective of following the obvious, once infact that the obvious cannot be explained, in any event, time is played by the reorganization of matter and energy, to say that god is IN it, would mean we could look at him with a microscope and see him having a cup of earl grey(in metaphor)... but in fact the paradox is creation making creation making creation, making creation, and is an infinite loop of paradoxes that just feed 'spoken faith' into each fallout. it makes it self which in a sense is possible but must have an event before it to make it occur.

i guess what i'm getting at, is maybe the universe is alive, but not to a praised all powerful being, logic proves it to be inaccurate.

[geoffrey]

This is clearly the weirdest, most aburd, thread that has ever existed.