Women & Beauty

[August1991]

Check this out.

[Guest Warwick Green]

An ad?

[kimmy]

Check this out.

That's very well done.

And, it jives with other observations. Those supermarket tabloids often have covers with "Caught Without Makeup!" photos, or candids of actresses at the beach or on the street, revealing that many of the beautiful young stars look remarkably *normal* when they're away from their aestheticians and makeup artists and hairstylists, and when their photos aren't being retouched.

The lovely and talented Cameron Diaz has battled acne for years... google "cameron diaz acne", and you can find plenty of stories about her skincare "emergencies" and even the theory that HDTV will ruin her career because high resolution will make her every blemish visible.

This season's most popular new TV show is "Ugly Betty", a comedy/soap-opera set at a glamour magazine patterned after Vogue. In the second episode, Betty almost loses her job at the magazine when unretouched photos of a young actress are stolen from her. In a scene similar to the Dove video, the actress sits at the magazine's photo-editing console, clicking a button and sadly watching as her image becomes progressively thinner and more distorted and finally vanishes.

Anyway, thanks for posting the video, August. I liked it. Like Cameron Diaz, some of us do have skin problems; unlike Cameron Diaz, most of us don't have a SWAT team of skin-care experts ready to jump into action at the first sign of a blemish.

-k

[August1991]

An ad?

Heavens!

I am sometimes confused why a rich person would want to signal their wealth to the world. In the case of a corporation, it's obvious to me why they'd want to show evidence of a successful product. And like Dove, I'd aim the show of big bucks at a younger audience, before they've decided what soap is theirs.

So, I figure that if the game is merely to show the big bucks, they might as well put it to good use. I think this ad does that.

Anyway, advertising is one of the modern world's forms of telling a story.

Those supermarket tabloids often have covers with "Caught Without Makeup!" photos, or candids of actresses at the beach or on the street, revealing that many of the beautiful young stars look remarkably *normal* when they're away from their aestheticians and makeup artists and hairstylists, and when their photos aren't being retouched.

A couple of litres of "Not from Concentrate" back, I recall seeing those. The arrows pointing to cellulite amuse me most. (What'll be next? Arrows pointing to varicose veins? A new brand of mini phone?)

The lovely and talented Cameron Diaz has battled acne for years... google "cameron diaz acne", and you can find plenty of stories about her skincare "emergencies" and even the theory that HDTV will ruin her career because high resolution will make her every blemish visible.

The Photoshopped neck and enlarged eyes impressed me but others have noted the model's skin at the start.

Why is clear skin considered attractive?

Wrinkles advertise age so that's one reason. Skin also portrays health (eg. Smallpox is deathly and leaves scars. Several hundred thousand years ago, scars of survivors would signal smallpox in the region.)

Skin also portrays feelings. Light-skinned people blush.

----

I think women have embarked on a cold war of beauty. This is competition to have the most MIRVs, or to be the tallest tree in the forest. Nixon negotiated SALT but no such agreement is possible among women or trees. I don't see any possible peace treaty in this beauty competition. I don't even understand why women embark on such a wasteful competition when men embark on the useful competition of becoming rich. Maybe it's genetic.

Anyway, if you have any doubt about my point, do you know any Canadian (poor or rich) who has not sent their kid to an orthodontist to straighten teeth?

What Leftist, out of solidarity with the poor in this world, would leave their child with crooked teeth?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

Why is clear skin considered attractive?

Generally, one covered in blemishes, warts and boils is considered unaatractive. Health, vigour and vitality are associated with 'good looks'. Therefore, wou are expected to want to mate with those ones.

There was an interesting study done with young children where they were shown two pictures of adults, one good looking and one 'ugly', and the children were asked, "Which one is the 'bad person", and the children always chose the ugly one.

from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect

Halo effect refers to the cognitive bias in which the assessment of an individual quality serves to influence and bias the judgment of other qualities

and the opposite...

A corollary to the halo effect is the "devil effect" (or "horns effect"), where individuals judged to have a single undesirable trait are subsequently judged to have many poor traits, allowing a single weak point or negative trait to influence others' perception of the person in genera

Anyway, advertising is one of the modern world's forms of telling a story.

Advertising is more about telling a lie than a 'story'.

I don't even understand why women embark on such a wasteful competition when men embark on the useful competition of becoming rich. Maybe it's genetic.

A lot of this, August, can be directly related to the primal instinct of "How best to attract a mate?" In the animal kingdom (of which we are a part) the attractions run the gamut from symmetry to size. I believe that in Africa, the males of certain tribes (the Masai, I think) jump in the air, with those that jump the highest being deemed the most 'eligible bachelors'.

[Guest Warwick Green]

All this is an ad telling women who might have a cratered skin that if they use Dove products they will look beautiful. A selling job.

[August1991]

Why is clear skin considered attractive?

Generally, one covered in blemishes, warts and boils is considered unaatractive. Health, vigour and vitality are associated with 'good looks'. Therefore, wou are expected to want to mate with those ones.

And that begs the question "why?" Who decided that blemishes are ugly? Who decided that one type of hair is beuatiful but another is ugly?

As to the halo effect, I found the wikipedia entry simplistic in the extreme. Once again, how and why do children choose who is attractive or ugly? Moreover, the use of expensive actors to endorse a product shows at least that the advertiser has money - and that seems to me the basic logic of endorsements.

Advertising is more about telling a lie than a 'story'.

You "advertise" yourself Thelonious when you start every thread with "Dear... " I suppose you have a diploma of some sort and may even have shown it to an employer during an interview. People advertise to call attention to something and in the process, they often wind up telling a story.

A lot of this, August, can be directly related to the primal instinct of "How best to attract a mate?"

Jeez, Thelonious, I hadn't thought of that idea. Astounding.

Now then, why do women seem to attract mates by trying to be "beautiful" whereas men try to attract mates by being "rich"?

All this is an ad telling women who might have a cratered skin that if they use Dove products they will look beautiful. A selling job.

Warwick, you have entirely missed the point and I don't have the patience to explain why.

---

I think I should have just left this video to speak for itself.

[sharkman]

It does speak for itself. There was a book on marketing released back in the mid 80s called, "The Want Makers". To me, this is one area where our system of capitalism is faulty. It's sort of like finding the weakness in the enemy and exploiting it. Exploiting the needs of women in this case to sell more product.

[Riverwind]

Now then, why do women seem to attract mates by trying to be "beautiful" whereas men try to attract mates by being "rich"?

Biology. Men look for healthy women who are likely to bear healthy children. I have read that there is a correlation between some aspects of what we call beauty and fertility. Women, on the other hand, need a man who is best able to look after them and their children. Money is a crude measure of a man's ability to support a family in our society today. We can argue until we are blue in the face about sexism and whatnot but we cannot deny the very different roles the sexes play in the creation and raising of children.

[Guest Warwick Green]

It does speak for itself. There was a book on marketing released back in the mid 80s called, "The Want Makers". To me, this is one area where our system of capitalism is faulty. It's sort of like finding the weakness in the enemy and exploiting it. Exploiting the needs of women in this case to sell more product.

This sums it up

Ad campaign tell women to celebrate who they are

By Theresa Howard, USA TODAY - July 8, 2005

NEW YORK — Some health and beauty marketers are trying to send a message about body image that many parents have tried to teach their daughters for years: Be happy with who you are.

Unilever's Dove brand and retailer Bath & Body Works, in a deal with American Girl, are ditching the traditional "aspirational" marketing messages that tell women and girls that if they buy a particular health or beauty product, they can look like the supermodel in the ad.

Instead of images of long locks, longer legs and incredibly lean bodies, the two companies are promoting their products with a message of "real beauty" by encouraging women and girls to celebrate themselves as they are — while using the products, of course.

http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/press...mp;target=press

[Charles Anthony]

And that begs the question "why?" Who decided that blemishes are ugly? Who decided that one type of hair is beuatiful but another is ugly?

It is not so much a decision but a logical conclusion from first impressions.

As The Lone Flea suggests, if diseases commonly manifest themselves with blemishes, a clear face indicates health.

Would feelings change after learning a new mate has malaria/herpes/AIDS/leprosy/whatever even though there were no outward physical signs? My attraction would dissipate.

We are past the stone-age (politically, some of us may still be stuck...) of understanding relationships between health and beauty. We know that acne is not dangerous nor contagious nor an indication of health at all. However, it is unpleasant to touch.

Funny thing is that only in the past one hundred years did obesity become unattractive. [Oddly, I know men and women (born and raised in Canada) who lean towards chubby members of the opposite sex.] Fat was considered not only a sign of health but also a sign of wealth. In some cultures today, it still is.

The issue of attractive hair color is unique. Personally, I am attracted to hair and eye color that is opposite of mine. Many women tend to dye their hair blond. I think it is fair to say that blond is considered more attractive. Why? I think the reason might have to do with it being sort-of rare. Blonds tend to darken as they age and very few maintain their blond hair. It is also a recessive trait.

[August1991]

I think it is fair to say that blond is considered more attractive. Why? I think the reason might have to do with it being sort-of rare. Blonds tend to darken as they age and very few maintain their blond hair. It is also a recessive trait.

Charles, I agree with much that you have posted - that was my point about wrinkles and smallpox - but freckles are not always considered ugly. And beauty marks are precisely that - beauty marks.

As to beauty being based on rare attributes, giants and dwarfs are rare but I don't think they would be considered beautiful.

RB started another thread on this topic some time ago.

Biology. Men look for healthy women who are likely to bear healthy children. I have read that there is a correlation between some aspects of what we call beauty and fertility.

But that should apply equally to men. In many species, it is the male who shows physical attributes to attract females. The genetic code of both the female and male are required and are determinant in teh success of any offspring.

Sorry to be tiresome but your response strikes me as simplistic.

It does speak for itself. There was a book on marketing released back in the mid 80s called, "The Want Makers". To me, this is one area where our system of capitalism is faulty. It's sort of like finding the weakness in the enemy and exploiting it. Exploiting the needs of women in this case to sell more product.

You're kidding, right? Women don't really want to buy soap - Unilever just convinces them of this want.

Sharkman, you must be young to be duped so easily.

My reference to orthodontics gives my true feelings about advertising and how complex it can be. Why do people pay so much to straighten the teeth of their children? This is no different from Unilever spending so much on its advertising campaigns.

One thing that is true is that it takes money to straighten teeth and to conduct an advertising campaign. So, children with crooked teeth come from families with poor parents and companies that don't advertise are not financially successful.

Returning to this soap ad linked in the OP, of course the advertising campaign is in the interests of Unilever shareholders. (Shocking!) If it weren't, the campaign wouldn't continue and if I'm not mistaken, Unilever's share price has risen because of this campaign alone.

But how is that necessarily contrary to the interests of young women? It would take an obsessive attachment to zero-sum thinking to believe that if Unilever gains, then someone else must lose. Rather, it seems that the Dove brand managers reckon that if they're going to blow some big bucks on advertising, they might as well do it in a socially useful way. I think they've suceeded. It's a remarkable video.

And no, I don't think the ad linked above implies that if a young woman uses Dove soap, she'll have unblemished skin. The ad's message is quite the contrary.

[Riverwind]

Biology. Men look for healthy women who are likely to bear healthy children. I have read that there is a correlation between some aspects of what we call beauty and fertility.

But that should apply equally to men. In many species, it is the male who shows physical attributes to attract females. The genetic code of both the female and male are required and are determinant in teh success of any offspring.

Most other species do not produce offspring that require 12-18 years to raise. This long period of time means the ability/willingness of the father to provide support is a bigger factor in determining the success of offspring than genetics alone. That is also why comparisons with other species do not mean that much.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear August1991,

You're kidding, right? Women don't really want to buy soap - Unilever just convinces them of this want.

It isn't the soap, it's the brand that is made to matter...(I don't think this was the gist of sharkman's point), It is the 'cosmetic accessories' that are sold (to mostly women) that are 'directing value assessments'. Women are encouraged to buy fake eyelashes, fake skin tone, and a fake blush.

Rather, it seems that the Dove brand managers reckon that if they're going to blow some big bucks on advertising, they might as well do it in a socially useful way. I think they've suceeded. It's a remarkable video.

It is remotely possible, but it is more likely that the 'socially useful' part is just the gimmick of the day.

Moreover, the use of expensive actors to endorse a product shows at least that the advertiser has money - and that seems to me the basic logic of endorsements.

Nonsense. The use of actors is done for various reasons, but mostly to have the consumer convert their idol-worship into sales. However, you won't see a big name actor (Joe Pesci, for example) doing a spot as one of those 'doctors' doing the rounds in a hospital only to prescribe some over-the-counter cough medicines. They use no-name actors for that, because people would immediately doubt that Joe Pesci was really a 'doctor', and that would throw the whole illusion off. Even the 'testimonial' ads are done by pros.

As to the halo effect, I found the wikipedia entry simplistic in the extreme.

I do too, but that is wikipedia for you. I usually only use it as a quick reference and often to show that I am not completely full of it. The spelling there is usually very good, though.

Once again, how and why do children choose who is attractive or ugly?

That is up to Darwin and the individual, but anomalies exist. Not many people like big, fat, hairy chicks, but some are drawn to them. Same goes for the skinny supermodel waifs, though I expect having sex with one of them would be like 'f#*king a sack of antlers'.

You "advertise" yourself Thelonious when you start every thread with "Dear... " I suppose you have a diploma of some sort and may even have shown it to an employer during an interview.

I thought I would just clarify why I use this for of address. (...again, for I remember this being discussed with you and 'I Miss Reagan' in the past, and he requested that I simply address him as IMR, while I believe you said that 'you found it endearing') I read a lot of books, and often dictionaries. Dictionaries all have the 'standard form of address' references, such as 'Dear Sir', 'Your Eminence', etc. depending on the circumstance. When I reply specifically to another poster, I usually use what I consider the proper form of address in casual correspondence, that being 'Dear So-and-So'. On a side note, I do not have anything other than a high-school diploma, though I did go to university for one year of 'general studies'.

[Charles Anthony]

It isn't the soap, it's the brand that is made to matter...

I agree but only in so much as the brand, Dove, has tried to make a connection that no other brand may be doing. [i have no idea how all of the other brands advertize (I just pick the cheapest soap!) but my guess is that they suggest that their products are better than the leading competitor yadda yadda yadda something to the effect that their soap is special and can do special things.]

After seeing the ad, a buyer will think: "They understand me." [usually, when it comes to making a sale, the best thing is to be a good listener. Buyers never want to be ignored regardless of whether they can be satisfied or not and they NEVER want to feel like they are being duped.] When the consumer goes to the shelf to choose a bar of soap, the product recognition may work. Dove will stand out even if the soap does nothing special.

[M.Dancer]

I've been following the Dove campaign for little over a year.

It's done with class and intelligence. I haven't seen what it's done for their marketshare, but since it's global, their brand recognition must be wonderfullu high.

[Figleaf]

"Every girl deserves to feel beautiful just the way she is."

This sounds like the touchy-feely self-esteem bullshit that people complain is undermining our society.

Does every boy deserve to feel athletic, even if he isn't? Does every man deserve to be tall? Every woman to be a leader?

Piffle.

[M.Dancer]

"Every girl deserves to feel beautiful just the way she is."

This sounds like the touchy-feely self-esteem bullshit that people complain is undermining our society.

Does every boy deserve to feel athletic, even if he isn't? Does every man deserve to be tall? Every woman to be a leader?

Piffle.

No everyone doesn't deserve to be something that is readily quantifiable. Height, athleticism etc....

Beauty is subjective, and in our lightspeed culture....the goal posts for beauty change...see for example the glamour photography from the 50s or vintage nudes from the 1900s

...so everyone does deserve to feel beautiful...and no needs anyone to tell them different

[Figleaf]

"Every girl deserves to feel beautiful just the way she is."

This sounds like the touchy-feely self-esteem bullshit that people complain is undermining our society.

Does every boy deserve to feel athletic, even if he isn't? Does every man deserve to be tall? Every woman to be a leader?

Piffle.

No everyone doesn't deserve to be something that is readily quantifiable. Height, athleticism etc....

Beauty is subjective, and in our lightspeed culture....the goal posts for beauty change...see for example the glamour photography from the 50s or vintage nudes from the 1900s

...so everyone does deserve to feel beautiful...and no needs anyone to tell them different

Whether you are considered 'athletic' depends on how you compare against those around you. Likewise tall.

The fact that standards may change has no bearing whatsoever on whether someone qualifies for those standards as they exist at any given time.

Instead of propagating the sad farce of telling ugly girls they 'deserve' to 'feel' beautiful, we should educate them about the relative importance of beauty within the whole portfolio of potentially meritorious characteristics.

[M.Dancer]

Beauty is subjective. And there are no ugly girls, only girls who have internalised the feeling of ugliness.

Instead of propagating the sad farce of telling ugly girls they 'deserve' to 'feel' beautiful, we should educate them about the relative importance of beauty within the whole portfolio of potentially meritorious characteristics

So instead of "propagandizing" them about a subjective goal, we should propagandize them with a lie?

If there are ugly girls in your world, you have my sympathy.....

In the immortal word of Frank Zappa.....

What's the ugliest Part of your body?

What's the ugliest

Part of your body?

Some say your nose

Some say your toes

(I think it's your mind)

But I think it's YOUR MIND

(Your mind)

I think it's your mind, woo woo

ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE POOR

UNFORTUNATE VICTIMS OF

SYSTEMS BEYOND THEIR CONTROL

A PLAGUE UPON YOUR IGNORANCE & THE GRAY

DESPAIR OF YOUR UGLY LIFE

Where did Annie go

When she went to town?

Who are all those creeps

That she brings around?

ALL YOUR CHILDREN ARE POOR

UNFORTUNATE VICTIMS OF LIES YOU BELIEVE

A PLAGUE UPON YOUR IGNORANCE THAT KEEPS

THE YOUNG FROM THE TRUTH THEY DESERVE . . .

[Renegade]

Instead of propagating the sad farce of telling ugly girls they 'deserve' to 'feel' beautiful, we should educate them about the relative importance of beauty within the whole portfolio of potentially meritorious characteristics.

If what you are trying to say is that beauty is unimportant relative to other characteristics, I would say this is untrue, especially for women, but also for men.

Despite how a woman may feel about herself, society values beauty highly. In many professions success depends upon being being beautiful.

While as individuals, beauty may be subjective, as a collective we have already certain standards of what is "beautiful". Regardless if you agree with those standards or not, those are likely to be the standards one will be judged by.

[M.Dancer]

While as individuals beauty may be subjective, as a collective we have already certain standards of what is "beautiful". Regardless if you agree with those standards or not, those are likely to be the standards one will be judged by.

I agree....and that's why I encourage my daughter to ignore them, and to ignore her calssmates looks and the whole 9 yards.....that's why I think the Dove campaign is a worthy and courageous ad campaign....

But the truth is, one of the ugliest women I have ever met could pass for a shapely runway model.....as long as she kept her mouth shut you would never know how truly ugly she was....

[Figleaf]

Beauty is subjective. And there are no ugly girls, only girls who have internalised the feeling of ugliness.

Such definitionalizing! Will you agree that there are people whose appearance lies substantially outside what is, from time to time, considered attractive by the majority of people?

Instead of propagating the sad farce of telling ugly girls they 'deserve' to 'feel' beautiful, we should educate them about the relative importance of beauty within the whole portfolio of potentially meritorious characteristics

So instead of "propagandizing" them about a subjective goal, we should propagandize them with a lie?

The concept that looks aren't everything is a lie???

If what you are trying to say is that beauty is unimportant relative to other characteristics, I would say this is untrue, especially for women, but also for men.

No, I'm saying if someone isn't lucky enough to be beautiful (and hey, even if they are), they should discover and develop other attributes.

[Guest Warwick Green]

I've been following the Dove campaign for little over a year.

It's done with class and intelligence. I haven't seen what it's done for their marketshare, but since it's global, their brand recognition must be wonderfullu high.

If people are talking about it in internet forums then it is getting the publicity that the manufacturer intended.

[M.Dancer]

Okay, here's the thing....aside from the disfigured or the ill or the morbidly obese......everyone 's looks cold be considered beautiful within the cultural parameters....as a Yorkville stylist I now is want to say....what separates a good hair cut from a bad one is two weeks. You take the average (non beautiful) person, and let a hair stylist at them, a wardrobe consultant, make up artist (and this is the most important......) and someone to coach poise and posture, and I willlgive you a beautiful person.

Let me tackle this from another way......

Attitude

Most guys have not internalize the same societal pressures as women have....we hardly ever stand naked in front of full length mirrors, rarely freak out if our face has a blotch........yet there's always a group or type of guy that no one would testify that he is "beautiful" yet........

.....Yet, he always has female companions.....who think he's .....

Handsome

Rugged

Manly

rough and tough

cute

virile

striking

strong

.....