Borg Posted October 14, 2006 Report Posted October 14, 2006 Don't we all conform to qualify for freedom? We follow our society's laws in order to enjoy freedom. If you break the law and murder....you lose your freedom. And if you go back out to rejoin society...you are faced with the same rules. Conform or back you go to jail! All wrong of course. There's no law to not wear a veil. Unless you'd like to make one. Hmm .... has not France started doing this. Recognizing - as usual far too late - that there is a serious problem in it's country? Maybe that is a good idea. I am sure at least one person will disagree. Borg Quote
betsy Posted October 14, 2006 Report Posted October 14, 2006 Don't we all conform to qualify for freedom? We follow our society's laws in order to enjoy freedom. If you break the law and murder....you lose your freedom. And if you go back out to rejoin society...you are faced with the same rules. Conform or back you go to jail! All wrong of course. What is all wrong? Quote
betsy Posted October 14, 2006 Report Posted October 14, 2006 Don't we all conform to qualify for freedom? We follow our society's laws in order to enjoy freedom. If you break the law and murder....you lose your freedom. And if you go back out to rejoin society...you are faced with the same rules. Conform or back you go to jail! All wrong of course. There's no law to not wear a veil. Unless you'd like to make one. There's no law against wearing shoes inside a house either. Someone comes to my house, I'd expect her to remove her shoes and not walk all over my carpet. Anyway, who was asking to have an audience with whom? Who was making the request to speak with whom? As for making it a law not to wear veils....especially in public places....I think that'd be a good idea. Quote
BubberMiley Posted October 14, 2006 Report Posted October 14, 2006 As for making it a law not to wear veils....especially in public places....I think that'd be a good idea. Good god! Betsy, the criminal justice system is not there for you to impose on others what you think they should do. It's there to prevent people from doing harm to others--no other reason. Abusing it to criminalize fashion you don't like is nothing short of fascism. Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
myata Posted October 14, 2006 Author Report Posted October 14, 2006 That speaks VOLUMES about your understanding of freedom. What other aspects of private life would you like to be dictated by the law? Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
jbg Posted October 15, 2006 Report Posted October 15, 2006 There's no law against wearing shoes inside a house either. Someone comes to my house, I'd expect her to remove her shoes and not walk all over my carpet. I thought Canadian "houses" were igloos, which I normally don't associate with carpeting. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
betsy Posted October 15, 2006 Report Posted October 15, 2006 That speaks VOLUMES about your understanding of freedom. What other aspects of private life would you like to be dictated by the law? Well, you're the one who suggested it! Asking me..."unless if you'd like to make one." Of course that's just too good for me to pass up! As for understanding freedom....you didn't even realize there is conformity that comes with our freedom. What do you think? Can we poo just about anywhere we please? You seem to have confused people's freedom with birds' freedom. Quote
betsy Posted October 15, 2006 Report Posted October 15, 2006 Good god! Betsy, the criminal justice system is not there for you to impose on others what you think they should do. It's there to prevent people from doing harm to others--no other reason. Abusing it to criminalize fashion you don't like is nothing short of fascism. Who's talking about fashion? "It's there to prevent people from doing harm to others--no other reason." I say, amen to that! Boy am I glad we at least agree on that one, Bubber. Quote
jbg Posted October 15, 2006 Report Posted October 15, 2006 As for understanding freedom....you didn't even realize there is conformity that comes with our freedom. What do you think? Can we poo just about anywhere we please? You seem to have confused people's freedom with birds' freedom. My earlier post was missed, so perhaps I'll expand on it. The societies that are rated as "not free" by organizations such as www.freedomhouse.org are generally inhabited by people with low levels of self-restraint. In Russia, for example, where the government loosens the shackles alchoholism rises, corruption and violence increase, and eventually people hanker for more restriction. In Islamic countries, we read frequently about stampedes, violence and intrigue. In the countries rated as "free", such as the US, UK, Canada, Australia, etc. people generally police themselves so that the government doesn't have to step in in a heavy-handed manner. De Tocqueville (of France) was especially impressed, on his visit to the US in the 1830's, about the prominent role of local governments and the near-absence of a federal role. People outside the US marveled, after the September 11 attacks, at the fact that the scene was controlled by Giuliani and Pataki (NYC's mayor, NYS's governor) with minimal federal involvement. The less-disciplined New Orleans residents did not fare as well after Katrina. Such resources as were available were squandered in bickering and fighting among people and officials at different levels of the government. Thus, freedom depends on self-regulation, and, essentially, conformity to societies' expectations. As betsy points out, it is not the freedom to defacate at will. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
myata Posted October 15, 2006 Author Report Posted October 15, 2006 Can we poo just about anywhere we please?You seem to have confused people's freedom with birds' freedom. There would be by-laws against excrementing on public properteis and internals rules on private. You just can't seem to get it right. Make up your mind. Either every single thing people do must be legislated, because otherwise there'd always be a risk of inconformity, or people should be allowed to dress in what they like? Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
betsy Posted October 15, 2006 Report Posted October 15, 2006 people should be allowed to dress in what they like? Like allowing a dagger or a machete as part of a fashion statement? Amazing how you conveniently ignore the possible reasons why some of us are agreeing with Straw. That this has nothing to do with just simple dressing up. My point for this is that Straw has the right to insist on what would make him feel secured about. It's not up to you to say that Straw is wrong because there is no harm. You may be right or wrong....but the point is, you are not the one standing on his shoes and meeting with those women. It is not up to you to decide if there is any harm or not. The threats of Al Qaeda that targets England...and the recent bombing of London subway...are being taken seriously. And they should. Terrorism does not necessarily mean "suicide bombing." There could be other forms of terrorism. And if I put myself in Straw's shoes....I too, would want to see the face of whom I'm speaking to. It is not up to you to vouch for these women...you don't even know them! Quote
betsy Posted October 15, 2006 Report Posted October 15, 2006 If the women feel so strongly about it, well they are so free to exercise their freedom to choose. Remove the veil or stomp out of there. Quote
Leafless Posted October 15, 2006 Report Posted October 15, 2006 That speaks VOLUMES about your understanding of freedom. What other aspects of private life would you like to be dictated by the law? Your type of freedom and Trudeau's does not really exist. The majority rules and no government will ever be able to delete that fact. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 16, 2006 Report Posted October 16, 2006 Like allowing a dagger or a machete as part of a fashion statement? When I am dressed formally, I wear a razor sharp 3 inch skinning knife in my right sock......amazingly, no one seems worried by it, many want to see it and some are stupid enough not to believe me when I tell them it's very sharp. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
myata Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Posted October 26, 2006 Just stumbled on this story on BBC news: Muslim cleric condemns women not wearing hijab. It's always interesting and ironic to observe how those on the extreme ends of the argument come done to the same position (i.e, denial of personal freedom to choose). Mr. al-Hilali: "thou dost wear thine hijab!"; Mr. Straw: "no, thou donst!" Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Ladyjen Posted October 26, 2006 Report Posted October 26, 2006 The veil to me, is a uniform that symbolizes the suppression of a whole lot of human beings. I am not comfortable when I see women's faces covered because somebody has brainwashed them from birth to believe that they are "less than". When I see veils of any sort, the images of women in Bhurkas being shot to death, in the back of a pick up truck, in a baseball field, is still fresh in my mind. Quote
myata Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Posted October 26, 2006 No matter what you think: is it a question is what you're comfortable other people being dressed in, or them being comfortable in their clothes? Or, to rephrase: how would you react if someone weren't entirely comfortable with e.g. your own attire? Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Riverwind Posted October 26, 2006 Report Posted October 26, 2006 No matter what you think: is it a question is what you're comfortable other people being dressed in, or them being comfortable in their clothes? Or, to rephrase: how would you react if someone weren't entirely comfortable with e.g. your own attire?I would say it was perfectly understandable if my choice of attire was a bikini thong (an image that makes even me shudder) for a business meeting. I would also defend the right of any business to deny me service because I did not have appropriate attire. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
myata Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Posted October 26, 2006 And I agree with you! 100% percent. However, .... do we have to go back and remind that the issue was with the public (not private business) official? And public official is supposed to serve all people of the country (at least, in my understanding) - not only those it considers "worthy" of its attention? In a country that does not dictate to its people what they should and should not be dressing in? Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Riverwind Posted October 26, 2006 Report Posted October 26, 2006 We have to go back and remind that the issue was with the public (not private business) official? And public official is supposed to serve all people of the country (at least, in my understanding) - not only those it considers "worthy" of its attention? In a country that does not dictate to its people what they should and should not be dressing in?I should have said any business or public servant. In any case, this is not an issue of people being denied access of to gov't services. The only issue is whether someone should be expected to wear appropriate attire if they insist on a face to face meeting with a public official. Quote To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.
JerrySeinfeld Posted October 26, 2006 Report Posted October 26, 2006 The VEIL is symbolic of THIS: http://www.rawa.org/murder-w.htm 'nuff said. Quote
M.Dancer Posted October 26, 2006 Report Posted October 26, 2006 The VEIL is symbolic of THIS:http://www.rawa.org/murder-w.htm 'nuff said. The garment worn in afghanistan are not veils. On the other hand, next time a nun comes knocking on our door I'm going to ask her to remove her bad habit Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Ladyjen Posted October 26, 2006 Report Posted October 26, 2006 The VEIL is symbolic of THIS:http://www.rawa.org/murder-w.htm 'nuff said. AMEN Quote
myata Posted October 26, 2006 Author Report Posted October 26, 2006 The only issue is whether someone should be expected to wear appropriate attire if they insist on a face to face meeting with a public official. Now we're back to the square #1. Is it the official itself who gets to decide what is "appropriate"? Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
M.Dancer Posted October 26, 2006 Report Posted October 26, 2006 The only issue is whether someone should be expected to wear appropriate attire if they insist on a face to face meeting with a public official. Now we're back to the square #1. Is it the official itself who gets to decide what is "appropriate"? As far as I'm concerened as long as their is no security issue, people should be free to dress as they please. So no flowing burkhas in shop class.....no full facial veils driving the benz..... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
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