Official asks visitors to take off veil

[myata]

In this CBC report, Jack Straw "asks muslim women to remove their veil" while visiting him. I can certainly see when it would be a justified measure e.g. for security. But as a personal preference, "for comfort" of a public official? What if someone else felt more comfort if their visitors removed their clothes? (I can certainly see how some visitors would be discomforted equally by either request). What's this "comfort" thing anyway? Aren't they supposed to be paid in proportion to the thickness of their skin?

[M.Dancer]

In this CBC report, Jack Straw "asks muslim women to remove their veil" while visiting him. I can certainly see when it would be a justified measure e.g. for security. But as a personal preference, "for comfort" of a public official? What if someone else felt more comfort if their visitors removed their clothes? (I can certainly see how some visitorus would be equally by either request). What's this "comfort" thing anyway? Aren't they supposed to be paid in proportion to the thickness of their skin?

Unless there's a security reason...would he ask an orthodox jew to remove her headdress? A sihk to shave.......

[Borg]

Shave? Head cover? Very different and most know this.

Just a red herring.

Apparently the removal of the veil is now happening in Europe.

Woman in Florida had her drivers license pic taken - full veil.

That is in the courts now and will probably be outlawed in the future.

Borg

[Riverwind]

But as a personal preference, "for comfort" of a public official?

We, as a society, have to have certain mutually agreeable standards to facilitate communication. The mantra of 'multi-culturalism' or 'tolerance' should never be interpreted as a excuse to eliminate all standards regarding public behavior. However, it does mean that each incident where a cultural conflict arises requires some discussion about where the line should be drawn.

Human beings use facial expression to communicate. Many people depend on facial cues to gauge how their words are being interpreted and will react accordingly. Veils, unlike any other sort of religious garment, interfere with this very basic form of human communication. For that reason is it perfectly reasonable for anyone to refuse to deal with someone wearing a veil. If someone has a problem with this requirement then they can always forego the face to face communication and use modes such as the phone or e-mail. Insisting on a face-to-face session with a politician is rediculous if you are not willing to show your face.

[Higgly]

OK. Let's say that Jack and his wife go down to sub-saharan Africa and meet with a tribal chief. We have gotten past the tea and company stage and we are getting down to matters of state. The chief asks Jack's wife to take off her top and show her tits....

[Riverwind]

OK. Let's say that Jack and his wife go down to sub-saharan Africa and meet with a tribal chief. We have gotten past the tea and company stage and we are getting down to matters of state. The chief asks Jack's wife to take off her top and show her tits....

How does a woman's shirt interfer with her ability to communicate with another person? If anything, top wear for women improves communication with men...

[Higgly]

Well it might depend on her perkiness. If the tits are perky and her nipples are engorged, then Jack might interpret this to be a good thing, but his wife might not. On the other hand, if the tits were not perky, Jack might ask whether the chief has more mojo than the chief across the way whose wife has perky tits. And then we have the case of saggy tits with perky nipples where Jack's wife has a headache...

[Remiel]

I respect you, Riverwind, but in this case I think you are just flat out wrong. One person wearing a veil in a face to face conversation does not diminish their presence, and that is more important than being able to read their facial expressions. How is it different from someone with a great poker face? Its really all in the eyes.

[myata]

How does a woman's shirt interfer with her ability to communicate with another person? If anything, top wear for women improves communication with men...

You're assuming that one particular communication standard (open face) is true (or dominant) for all people. That's not logical, and as the example shows, not necessarily true. Tribal chief may exhibit the same concerns as highly honorable Jack Straw.

Another point is that a persons who desires to wear a veil can ask the same question: if/how does it interfere with her ability to communicate? If it's simply a matter of preference of the official, then these questions should be asked: what personal preferences public officials should be allowed to bring into their public functions; and what if personal preferences of a certain official deny someone the same opportunities that are available to others?

[Higgly]

I respect you, Riverwind, but in this case I think you are just flat out wrong. One person wearing a veil in a face to face conversation does not diminish their presence, and that is more important than being able to read their facial expressions. How is it different from someone with a great poker face? Its really all in the eyes.

Personally I think it is all in the words. Especially if they are written down and signed by both parties. Everything else is negotiation.

[Riverwind]

One person wearing a veil in a face to face conversation does not diminish their presence, and that is more important than being able to read their facial expressions. How is it different from someone with a great poker face? Its really all in the eyes.

Would you be willing to negotiate a business deal with someone wearing a mask? I wouldn't. Seeing someone else's face is a fundemental part of face to face communication. Like I said, if someone does not want to have a face to face conversation with a politician there is always the phone or e-mail.

[Charles Anthony]

In some Asian cultures, it can be rude to look a person in the eyes. It can also be considered menacing. Hence, the characteristic bowed-head Asian-store clerk mannerisms. They are not being shy or meek but rather polite.

This Jack Straw is a public servant. As such, he should be serving the public and not the other way around -- but that is not how government works, is it?

[Riverwind]

In some Asian cultures, it can be rude to look a person in the eyes. It can also be considered menacing. Hence, the characteristic bowed-head Asian-store clerk mannerisms. They are not being shy or meek but rather polite.

In some cultures it is customary to provide politicians with 'gifts' prior to any meeting. Does that mean our politicians should accept these 'gifts' in order to be 'culturally sensitive'?

The real purpose of the viel is dehumanize and control woman - it really has nothing to do with religious observance. I see nothing wrong with rejecting certain cultural practices as completely incompatible with our values. Female genital mutilation and polygamy are similar cultural practices which we have no problems prohibiting.

[myata]

The real purpose of the viel is dehumanize and control woman - it really has nothing to do with religious observance. I see nothing wrong with rejecting certain cultural practices as completely incompatible with our values. Female genital mutilation and polygamy are similar cultural practices which we have no problems prohibiting.

Oh we've been through this so many times. And who's there, pray, to tell us lowly ones, what is "the real purpose" of everything?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The veil is a religous thing, big deal. Like turbans or what have you, its all the same in as much as it serves as a sign to define differences. There is a difference between men and women, the old and the young and so on. Perhaps this topic should be viewed in the light of cultural freedom............

[crazymf]

Well it might depend on her perkiness. If the tits are perky and her nipples are engorged, then Jack might interpret this to be a good thing, but his wife might not. On the other hand, if the tits were not perky, Jack might ask whether the chief has more mojo than the chief across the way whose wife has perky tits. And then we have the case of saggy tits with perky nipples where Jack's wife has a headache...

I just spit my coffee on my monitor....HAHAHA!!!! Best post de jour. Funny stuff!!

[Riverwind]

Oh we've been through this so many times. And who's there, pray, to tell us lowly ones, what is "the real purpose" of everything?

Look at different Muslim cultures and see what they do. You will see that Muslim cultures that oppress their women the most are also the ones that require burkas and veils. Women in the more enlightened Muslim cultures will wear a Hijab as a sign of faith.

Covering the face is a form of control. A Hijab, Turban or any other garment is simply an adornment - there is a hge difference.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The point is that it is their culture not ours. How far should society go to enforce its ideals. Whose society should rule? What culture should be dominant? In terms of democratic strength we should all be using chop sticks and quoting Mao. I don't choose to tell people how to live in my own country, let alone those in far away places who simply believe in things that I do not.

[myata]

Look at different Muslim cultures and see what they do. You will see that Muslim cultures that oppress their women the most are also the ones that require burkas and veils. Women in the more enlightened Muslim cultures will wear a Hijab as a sign of faith.

Covering the face is a form of control. A Hijab, Turban or any other garment is simply an adornment - there is a hge difference.

So you mean to say that you understand their reasons for wearing a veil better than themselves?

[Riverwind]

I don't choose to tell people how to live in my own country, let alone those in far away places who simply believe in things that I do not.

Would you be ok with allowing genital mutilation or perhaps allowing parents to keep girls out of school. The fact is there are many cultural practices that are pretty disgusting and we have to draw the line somewhere. I choose to draw the line at veils - you may choose to draw the line at genital mutilation and polygamy but we are both drawing arbitrary lines. I draw the line at any practice which I believe is used to deny rights from people (usually woman).

[myata]

But... if an adult person decides to wear a veil in full conciense and consent, would you still have any reason to think that they're wrong? It must be that you know something about this world they don't.

[Riverwind]

But... if an adult person decides to wear a veil in full conciense and consent, would you still have any reason to think that they're wrong? It must be that you know something about this world they don't.

Should we ignore a man who beats his wife because she is an adult and consents to it? Can a woman really give her concent to wearing a viel if she risks being beaten if she refuses? We cannot really know. What we do know is that cultures that force women to wear viels are the most abusive to women for that reason the viel is a symbol of oppression.

[myata]

But... if an adult person decides to wear a veil in full conciense and consent, would you still have any reason to think that they're wrong? It must be that you know something about this world they don't.

Should we ignore a man who beats his wife because she is an adult and consents to it? Can a woman really give her concent to wearing a viel if she risks being beaten if she refuses?

I'm sorry to say that but you're making no sense. How could wearing something / anything have any resemblance to physical violence?

[Riverwind]

I'm sorry to say that but you're making no sense. How could wearing something / anything have any resemblance to physical violence?

You cannot say an activity should be acceptable simply because an adult concents to it. People can he cohersed into doing things in many ways.

[myata]

And of all people you always know for sure who is being coerced and who is not?