Official asks visitors to take off veil

myata · October 10, 2006

It's not a piece of clothing, it's a disguise. I don't think people should be free to disguise their identity when in negotiations with government or business.
This isn't Saudi Arabia, women can show their faces in our countries. We should be protecting this oppressed minority, not encouraging their husband's control over their lives in our free countries.

Earlier in this thread we already had a discussion on whether someone but the individuals themselves should be authorised to decide what kind of clothing would constitutute "disguise" or "oppression". BTW security factors are usually addressed before individual gets to see the official (e.g. while entering public service area). If identification is required as a matter of policy, I see nothing wrong with veil being removed at this stage. Again, it's a matter of 1) reasonable and 2) accommodation.

JerrySeinfeld · October 10, 2006

I don't understand this crap at all.

I can't even believe this is a legitimate discussion in our society.

Look at what we're debating here and ask yourself if this is normal.

Now look at the pace of change and trajectory - we're gonna be dhimmis by mid century.

Higgly · October 10, 2006

Yes you can try all of the above too. But I bet the best disguise is still that of a Muslim woman.

Only if you're about 5 foot 2 and have a small build. Otherwise you might want to put on a Sikh turban and big bushy fake beard. In any case, weren't we talking about taking off the veil when meeting with Jack Straw? I guess I missed how this has evolved into outlawing the Hijaab altogether.

Higgly · October 10, 2006

Now look at the pace of change and trajectory - we're gonna be dhimmis by mid century.

Well judging by the pace and trajectory of paranoia, I'd say we're all gonna have ulcers by mid-century. At least you will. You're letting the press headlines get to you. Take a pill.

betsy · October 10, 2006

Yes you can try all of the above too. But I bet the best disguise is still that of a Muslim woman.

Only if you're about 5 foot 2 and have a small build. Otherwise you might want to put on a Sikh turban and big bushy fake beard. In any case, weren't we talking about taking off the veil when meeting with Jack Straw? I guess I missed how this has evolved into outlawing the Hijaab altogether.

What....you don't think there aren't any Danny de Vitos among dah guys? Some Muslim guys I saw or talked to (convenience stores and pizza shops, etc.)...seem to be small built and about short.

Or you mean there aren't women who are big-boned? I can't believe we're talking about this.

jbg · October 12, 2006

Now look at the pace of change and trajectory - we're gonna be dhimmis by mid century.

The tide was turned at Tourres (sp) and Vienna before. Maybe this time at the Atlantic.

killjoy · October 12, 2006

Or try wearing sunglasses, a wig and fake beard. Or fake eyebrows, die your hair and wear a fake big nose. Or wear a really loud outfit that diverts attention from your facial features. Or all of the above. Or some of the above. This is a red herring.

Hilarious. One is a mask, as effective or more than a balaclava. Everything you're talking about doesn't even come close.

one removes the face and all identification from cameras, while "loud outfits that divert attention away from your facial features" is the second stupidest pretense to a serious rebuttal i've ever read here, right after the one about tribal chiefs demanding wives remove their shirts. Obviously you have no sincere intention of discussing this like a thinking being.

Mask/not a mask. There is no argument here. Cultural rights? Ok. That’s a basis for argument. Arguing that a mask isn’t a potential security threat is just idiotic. Try walking into a bank with a mask on then come back and tell us what they called it.

.

Chuck U. Farlie · October 12, 2006

Just searching around on the 'net... and found this site which included a page entitled 'common misconceptions of islam': http://www.allaahuakbar.net/misconceptions/index.htm

In here, there is a supposed reference to a quote in the Koran why women must cover themselves... apparently its to avoid molestation.

Hijab prevents molestation
The reason why Hijab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur'ân in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahab: "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur'ân 33:59]

Example of twin sisters
Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur'ân rightly says that hijab prevents women from being molested.

This is ridiculous.

Is rape that much of a problem in Muslim countries that they must force all women to cover up? Wouldn't it be better to punish the troublesome men, not the innocent women?

kimmy · October 12, 2006

If someone feels more comfortable wearing a mask over her face when she goes out in public, I guess that's a personal perogative.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable talking to somebody wearing a mask, that should be a personal perogative as well. I certainly never have (and never will) made any effort to approach or befriend someone who covers her face as a matter of daily habit.

-k

Drea · October 12, 2006

If someone feels more comfortable wearing a mask over her face when she goes out in public, I guess that's a personal perogative.
If someone doesn't feel comfortable talking to somebody wearing a mask, that should be a personal perogative as well. I certainly never have (and never will) made any effort to approach or befriend someone who covers her face as a matter of daily habit.

-k

That's a real shame Kimmy

I have a really good friend in Iran. She covers her head and sometimes her face. She looks sooo exotic and beautiful in her hijab. Her beautiful almond shaped eyes are all you see. Of course as her friend, she has sent me pics of herself without cover and she is beautiful and exotic!

I love Sari's too but with my blonde hair I just don't look quite right in one LOL

If you become friends with a woman who covers up in public, she will uncover her face so you can see her. It's a modesty thing. Not a religious put-women-in-their-place thing.

Charles Anthony · October 12, 2006

It's a modesty thing. Not a religious put-women-in-their-place thing.

Indeed. I asked a client of mine to explain it to me and she said the same thing.

When this lady is in my office, she wears her hijab -- her face is not covered, only her head is covered. However, when I am in her office, she wears nothing on her head.

betsy · October 13, 2006

Hijab prevents molestation
The reason why Hijab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur'ân in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahab: "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Al-Qur'ân 33:59]

Example of twin sisters
Suppose two sisters who are twins, and who are equally beautiful, walk down the street. One of them is attired in the Islamic hijab i.e. the complete body is covered, except for the face and the hands up to the wrists. The other sister is wearing western clothes, a mini skirt or shorts. Just around the corner there is a hooligan or ruffian who is waiting for a catch, to tease a girl. Whom will he tease? The girl wearing the Islamic Hijab or the girl wearing the skirt or the mini? Naturally he will tease the girl wearing the skirt or the mini. Such dresses are an indirect invitation to the opposite sex for teasing and molestation. The Qur'ân rightly says that hijab prevents women from being molested.

This is ridiculous.

Is rape that much of a problem in Muslim countries that they must force all women to cover up? Wouldn't it be better to punish the troublesome men, not the innocent women?

I guess Jack Straw should demand an apology from those Muslim girls!

Are they saying they fear Straw will rape them if he sees them "uncovered?" He'll be overcome by lust?

Who do they think he is? Clinton?

Argus · October 13, 2006

If someone feels more comfortable wearing a mask over her face when she goes out in public, I guess that's a personal perogative.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable talking to somebody wearing a mask, that should be a personal perogative as well. I certainly never have (and never will) made any effort to approach or befriend someone who covers her face as a matter of daily habit.

-k

That's a real shame Kimmy

I have a really good friend in Iran. She covers her head and sometimes her face. She looks sooo exotic and beautiful in her hijab. Her beautiful almond shaped eyes are all you see. Of course as her friend, she has sent me pics of herself without cover and she is beautiful and exotic!

I love Sari's too but with my blonde hair I just don't look quite right in one LOL

If you become friends with a woman who covers up in public, she will uncover her face so you can see her. It's a modesty thing. Not a religious put-women-in-their-place thing.

It is both. I'm sure some women wear it for that reason. I'm equally sure that the young girls I see wearing it are told to by their parents, and that many of the older girls and young women wear it because of family and group pressure which says that if she doesn't she's ungodly and something of a whore.

And really, modesty requires hiding yourself? What does that say about the patriarchial culture that was drummed into their heads when young?

Isn't it a basic tenet of feminism that women should not feel like they need to hide themselves away, but should wear whatever they damned well feel like it, and that it's up to men to mind their behaviour, no matter what? We have a whole series of laws in place to prevent pretty young women from being harrassed, physically, verbally, or in any other way. Choosing to hide yourself away from men instead is derived from a culture where no such protections were ever offered up. It is not necessary in Canada. Choosing to go that path is a rejection of those societal constructs built up by feminism to protect women who choose to expose a little flesh, or to look sexy or just pretty. And its a rejection of those women too - in effect, saying "You're dressing like a whore. You should ress modestly like me. If something happens to you it's your fault."

jbg · October 13, 2006

If someone feels more comfortable wearing a mask over her face when she goes out in public, I guess that's a personal perogative.

Next time I go banking on a 30 trudeau unit day, or go to an airport, I'll wear a ski-mask.

myata · October 13, 2006

It can't be enforced as a policy and is a bad taste as a personal preference (like making and old or disabled visitor stand in his presence). I'm not sure it'd give grounds for a formal complaint, although I believe that officials shouldn't be allowed to promote their personal preferences and attitudes while on public's time and expense. As someone's already noted, it's them who serve the public and not the other way.

Drea · October 13, 2006

If someone feels more comfortable wearing a mask over her face when she goes out in public, I guess that's a personal perogative.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable talking to somebody wearing a mask, that should be a personal perogative as well. I certainly never have (and never will) made any effort to approach or befriend someone who covers her face as a matter of daily habit.

-k

That's a real shame Kimmy

I have a really good friend in Iran. She covers her head and sometimes her face. She looks sooo exotic and beautiful in her hijab. Her beautiful almond shaped eyes are all you see. Of course as her friend, she has sent me pics of herself without cover and she is beautiful and exotic!

I love Sari's too but with my blonde hair I just don't look quite right in one LOL

If you become friends with a woman who covers up in public, she will uncover her face so you can see her. It's a modesty thing. Not a religious put-women-in-their-place thing.

It is both. I'm sure some women wear it for that reason. I'm equally sure that the young girls I see wearing it are told to by their parents, and that many of the older girls and young women wear it because of family and group pressure which says that if she doesn't she's ungodly and something of a whore.

And really, modesty requires hiding yourself? What does that say about the patriarchial culture that was drummed into their heads when young?

Isn't it a basic tenet of feminism that women should not feel like they need to hide themselves away, but should wear whatever they damned well feel like it, and that it's up to men to mind their behaviour, no matter what? We have a whole series of laws in place to prevent pretty young women from being harrassed, physically, verbally, or in any other way. Choosing to hide yourself away from men instead is derived from a culture where no such protections were ever offered up. It is not necessary in Canada. Choosing to go that path is a rejection of those societal constructs built up by feminism to protect women who choose to expose a little flesh, or to look sexy or just pretty. And its a rejection of those women too - in effect, saying "You're dressing like a whore. You should ress modestly like me. If something happens to you it's your fault."

On that note, why do we western women where clothing at all during the summer? Why don't we walk around boobies on high for all to see? Is it because we are oppressed by our men, or is it because we'd really rather not have all men ogling our breasts.

It's all a mattter of perception. What about those mormon women who wear really long skirts, are they oppressed by their men too?

Modesty means different things to different people. And at different ages. Used to be I wore a mini all the time. Now I never wear a skirt above the knee. I've become more modest as I get older, no man has told me I cannot wear minis.

Argus · October 14, 2006

Isn't it a basic tenet of feminism that women should not feel like they need to hide themselves away, but should wear whatever they damned well feel like it, and that it's up to men to mind their behaviour, no matter what? We have a whole series of laws in place to prevent pretty young women from being harrassed, physically, verbally, or in any other way. Choosing to hide yourself away from men instead is derived from a culture where no such protections were ever offered up. It is not necessary in Canada. Choosing to go that path is a rejection of those societal constructs built up by feminism to protect women who choose to expose a little flesh, or to look sexy or just pretty. And its a rejection of those women too - in effect, saying "You're dressing like a whore. You should ress modestly like me. If something happens to you it's your fault."

On that note, why do we western women where clothing at all during the summer? Why don't we walk around boobies on high for all to see?

I'm all for it!

Is it because we are oppressed by our men, or is it because we'd really rather not have all men ogling our breasts.

It's one thing to not have men staring at your breasts, quite another to not have them seeing your face. Because somehow your face is terrible, or shameful, or might tempt them into immorality.

It's all a mattter of perception. What about those mormon women who wear really long skirts, are they oppressed by their men too?

To a certain extent, yes.

Modesty means different things to different people. And at different ages. Used to be I wore a mini all the time. Now I never wear a skirt above the knee. I've become more modest as I get older, no man has told me I cannot wear minis.

We're talking about your face here, not body parts. We're talking about being able to feel the breeze in your face, about having an identity, rather than being anonymous. We're talking about not hiding from the world.

jbg · October 14, 2006

On that note, why do we western women where clothing at all during the summer? Why don't we walk around boobies on high for all to see? Is it because we are oppressed by our men, or is it because we'd really rather not have all men ogling our breasts.
It's all a mattter of perception. What about those mormon women who wear really long skirts, are they oppressed by their men too?

Modesty means different things to different people. And at different ages. Used to be I wore a mini all the time. Now I never wear a skirt above the knee. I've become more modest as I get older, no man has told me I cannot wear minis.

Because it's our culture. If someone comes to Britain or Canada, or for that matter the US, and especially if they want to see a high government official, is there any reason they should not conform to our cultural expectations. If they don't want to thtey have the freedom.....to leave.

myata · October 14, 2006

Because it's our culture. If someone comes to Britain or Canada, or for that matter the US, and especially if they want to see a high government official, is there any reason they should not conform to our cultural expectations. If they don't want to thtey have the freedom.....to leave.

You're actually bringing whole two good points: "conform" and "freedom". One has to conform to qualify for freedom? Or it (the freedom) also means the right to not conform? Which of the two?

betsy · October 14, 2006

Because it's our culture. If someone comes to Britain or Canada, or for that matter the US, and especially if they want to see a high government official, is there any reason they should not conform to our cultural expectations. If they don't want to thtey have the freedom.....to leave.

You're actually bringing whole two good points: "conform" and "freedom". One has to conform to qualify for freedom? Or it (the freedom) also means the right to not conform? Which of the two?

Don't we all conform to qualify for freedom? We follow our society's laws in order to enjoy freedom.

If you break the law and murder....you lose your freedom. And if you go back out to rejoin society...you are faced with the same rules. Conform or back you go to jail!

If someone wants to exercise his freedom to not conform.....what's stopping him? He knows the terms.

It's a matter of choice.

jbg · October 14, 2006

Because it's our culture. If someone comes to Britain or Canada, or for that matter the US, and especially if they want to see a high government official, is there any reason they should not conform to our cultural expectations. If they don't want to thtey have the freedom.....to leave.

You're actually bringing whole two good points: "conform" and "freedom". One has to conform to qualify for freedom? Or it (the freedom) also means the right to not conform? Which of the two?

Don't we all conform to qualify for freedom? We follow our society's laws in order to enjoy freedom.

If you break the law and murder....you lose your freedom. And if you go back out to rejoin society...you are faced with the same rules. Conform or back you go to jail!

If someone wants to exercise his freedom to not conform.....what's stopping him? He knows the terms.

It's a matter of choice.

Exactly. All societies providing for a high degree of freedom are characterized by large doses of self-restraint. That's why you don't read about daily stampedes in Canada, the US or Australia; unless the Calgary Stampede qualifies.

betsy · October 14, 2006

Because it's our culture. If someone comes to Britain or Canada, or for that matter the US, and especially if they want to see a high government official, is there any reason they should not conform to our cultural expectations. If they don't want to thtey have the freedom.....to leave.

You're actually bringing whole two good points: "conform" and "freedom". One has to conform to qualify for freedom? Or it (the freedom) also means the right to not conform? Which of the two?

Don't we all conform to qualify for freedom? We follow our society's laws in order to enjoy freedom.

If you break the law and murder....you lose your freedom. And if you go back out to rejoin society...you are faced with the same rules. Conform or back you go to jail!

If someone wants to exercise his freedom to not conform.....what's stopping him? He knows the terms.

It's a matter of choice.

They know the culture of the west! They know that coming to the west is like going into the devil's den.....isn't it?

Riverwind · October 14, 2006

When this lady is in my office, she wears her hijab -- her face is not covered, only her head is covered.

In this discussion it is important to distiguish between the Hijab and the viel. The Hijab is simple an ornament and does interfer with communication. A viel is a mask and does interfer with communication. For that reason I see no issue with a hijab but have a big problem with the viel.

Borg · October 14, 2006

When this lady is in my office, she wears her hijab -- her face is not covered, only her head is covered.
In this discussion it is important to distiguish between the Hijab and the viel. The Hijab is simple an ornament and does interfer with communication. A viel is a mask and does interfer with communication. For that reason I see no issue with a hijab but have a big problem with the viel.

A bit patronizing perhaps.

Come to a new society - take up thier ways.

Do not like it? Leave.

Tolerance will be the down fall of many western countries.

Borg

myata · October 14, 2006

Don't we all conform to qualify for freedom? We follow our society's laws in order to enjoy freedom.
If you break the law and murder....you lose your freedom. And if you go back out to rejoin society...you are faced with the same rules. Conform or back you go to jail!

All wrong of course. There's no law to not wear a veil. Unless you'd like to make one.