Let's not forget what Pope Benidict is...

[Drea]

The men that would want to "initate" a youngster into sex probably isn't all that secure in himself and a virgin would not know that he is terrible in the sack, whereas a real woman would. He is trying to hide his own inadequacies.

Any real man would not want a partner that would lie there like a piece of wood. A real man would want a partner who could fully participate in the act.

[betsy]

I can't believe anyone would protect a child predator, even if they are a priest. It's sad really, that parents are putting their kids in harms way when they think they are safe in the church.

That's why the priest pedophile is the worst of all. You folks who go to these churches should be absolutely up in arms. But you choose to sweep it under the rug.

Drea, my position in this topic is this:

I do not deny that there are numerous abuses and sexual molestations that happened in our church. I am appalled and angry that those happened...and I could guess, still happening somewhere....and would probably still happen in the future.

Like all places that offer golden opportunities for perverts to exercise their sick fantacies freely (daycares, schools, boy scout, Big Brother, White House, residential schools....practically anyplace that offer a position of authority and power), you bet perverts will gravitate around those premises and seek employment.

At the height of the Catholic Church scandal, an investigative report was conducted (under the previous Pope's regime) and the report found out that there is a cabal of homosexuals and pedophiles who had infiltrated the church over the years and generations. Don't forget that the Catholic Church is the oldest religion I think....and this had been going on for generation. We can probably likened this cliques to a "secret organization" within the Church...its members aiding, abetting, shielding and protecting one another. I wouldn't be surprised if that is one of the big reasons why we hear that this so-called priests who molested a kid was secretly "transferred" to another location.

If a pervert would choose to work in a daycare to be around other children....I think you would agree with me that a pervert can easily manipulate effectively if he is wearing a priest's garb and holding a bible. It happened to a friend of mine when he was around 14! His parents had trusted the priest that they treated him almost like friend of the family...being invited for Sunday dinners. Imagine how betrayed they must've felt? His mother was even sort of blaming herself...for not even suspecting anything!

Perverts become priests....not because they want to spread the teachings of Christ.

They are using our church to get to the children. As a result, a lot of people end up losing their trust for the church and the other priests who are not doing anything wrong. That is what I mean when I say that the church is a victim too.

I do not wish to condemn the Pope simply for the reason just like any other man, he had not been proven guilty of any "obstruction of justice." There is apparently a lawsuit going on, based on Gerry's provided link....so I wish to await the outcome of the hearing.

[Drea]

Oh no, I never thought that priest became pehophiles.

Pedophiles become priests so that they can access their prey without any interference.

I feel for those parents (and the abused children) who put their trust in a priest only to have that trust betrayed. As the church is in a position of authority, not only over children, but over their parents as well, it makes these pedophiles who've infiltrated the church even worse.

How does the church weed these people out? How do you tell if a young man going into the clergy is actually a pedophile?

[Argus]

A pedophile is one who desires sex with children. Choir boys are not 16. They still have their "girly voices". Therefore the priest is not a homosexual, but a pedophile.

No, the priest is a homosexual paedophile. Paedophiles indeed seek sexual relationships with children, pre-adolescent children. Lusting after 15 year olds does not make you a paedophile. Paedophiles are not interested in 15 year olds.

I can't believe anyone would protect a child predator, even if they are a priest.

They used to. I don't believe anyone does now. All the Pope's letter said was that investigations could be kept confidential. Could. It did not say "will in all cases". Furthermore, it said nothing about what would be done after the investigation has run its course and a decision on likely guilt or innoence rendered.

If word gets out that a priest is being investigated for child abuse that priest is finished in his community, regardless of the outcome of the investigation. I can see the logic in keeping such investigations as secret as possible while they are being conducted.

[betsy]

How does the church weed these people out? How do you tell if a young man going into the clergy is actually a pedophile?

The church won't know until someone blows the whistle on the guilty priest. They could try preventing admittance to priesthood by doing the same screening they do for daycares I guess....but then again, perverts still manage to get into daycares despite criminal checks. We still hear of abuses every now and then.

I think parents should be more vigilant now. If my son needs to practice for the choir, I'll be there with him.

And if I'm a priest, I'd make sure I'm not left alone with any minors or women...just so to prevent any gossips or any doubts.

[BubberMiley]

The church won't know until someone blows the whistle on the guilty priest.

Is "the whistle" a euphemism?

[newbie]

A pedophile is one who desires sex with children. Choir boys are not 16. They still have their "girly voices". Therefore the priest is not a homosexual, but a pedophile.

No, the priest is a homosexual paedophile. Paedophiles indeed seek sexual relationships with children, pre-adolescent children. Lusting after 15 year olds does not make you a paedophile. Paedophiles are not interested in 15 year olds.

I can't believe anyone would protect a child predator, even if they are a priest.

They used to. I don't believe anyone does now. All the Pope's letter said was that investigations could be kept confidential. Could. It did not say "will in all cases". Furthermore, it said nothing about what would be done after the investigation has run its course and a decision on likely guilt or innoence rendered.

If word gets out that a priest is being investigated for child abuse that priest is finished in his community, regardless of the outcome of the investigation. I can see the logic in keeping such investigations as secret as possible while they are being conducted.

A couple of things here. Don't just think paedophile Priests are strictly homosexual. There are plenty of young girls that have been abused as well. You mention a Priest is finished in his community if he is investigated. But where does he go Argus? Most likely to another community to abuse again. Don't kid yourself about Bishops protecting their own. I have absolutely no doubt that we are only hearing the criminal cases in the press, and not the huge amount of cases unheard because of meagre settlements. Since these are all private no one can calculate the enorminty of this injustice. Have the Canadian bishops apologized by the way?

[sharkman]

So where does he go if he's innocent? There have been many cases of adults being accused of sexual abuse and other things who have been found innocent. The little accuser tearfully admits they wanted attention or whatever and the innocent adult's reputation is shattered for life.

[Drea]

How does the church weed these people out? How do you tell if a young man going into the clergy is actually a pedophile?

The church won't know until someone blows the whistle on the guilty priest. They could try preventing admittance to priesthood by doing the same screening they do for daycares I guess....but then again, perverts still manage to get into daycares despite criminal checks. We still hear of abuses every now and then.

I think parents should be more vigilant now. If my son needs to practice for the choir, I'll be there with him.

And if I'm a priest, I'd make sure I'm not left alone with any minors or women...just so to prevent any gossips or any doubts.

It's sad that an honest priest, boyscout leader, big brother volunteer, or whoever cannot be alone with a child. What a sad society we live in!

The bad ones have ruined it for the good ones.

My hubby volunteers with Cadets and we always make sure there is more than one parent and cadet who comes along. Just to be sure.

This is also to protect the parents from false accusations. So I understand the need to keep the investigations under wraps. But if and when they are found guilty they should be paraded in public.

[betsy]

Since we all know that pedophiles and homosexuals had infiltrated the church...used the church...to be able to abuse the sons and daughters of the parishioners of the various Christian churches.

If we would want to hear apologies from everyone somehow involved whether directly or indirectly...or just through mere association....and belonging to the same organization (church) that represents the Christian faith, it is then only reasonable to also demand apologies from the various gay groups.

I would also have included demand from various pedophile groups....but of course such groups are nowhere in existence.

I mean apologies given to ALL CHRISTIAN churches and their parishioners.... that were used and abused by homosexuals. The damage that was done to the Christian faith is immeasurable.

You can relate to that, Newbie...for you are still trying to cope with your anger. And I understand, you've got valid reasons to be angry.

[Argus]

So where does he go if he's innocent? There have been many cases of adults being accused of sexual abuse and other things who have been found innocent. The little accuser tearfully admits they wanted attention or whatever and the innocent adult's reputation is shattered for life.

There were worse than that. I don't know how many are old enough to remember the "satanic cult" scares of the eighties and early nineties, but a lot of people wound up in prison for many, many years on spurious charges of child abuse, which, on the surface, were ludicrous, but which were enough to satisfy the courts given the hysteria of the time.

It took almost nothing to get convicted, no real evidence, no believeable testimony, just the accusation and - bingo - 100 years in prison.

Timeline of child abuse hysteria

[Higgly]

Perverts become priests....not because they want to spread the teachings of Christ.

Maybe. And psychopaths become cops. But I digress.

I was raised a Catholic. I still remember our parish priest showing up unannounced for dinner one Friday night (to see if we were eating fish) and lecturing my mother and father about their parental obligations. I still remember my parents being absolutely livid with rage after he left. These were good Catholics who had sacrificed every week when the basket came around and shephered their brood into the church on every Sunday and Holy Day. We were expected to go to confession every Friday. We almost always did and held our breaths all through Saturday so we could take communion on Sunday morning.

I think that all priests should be allowed to marry. In fact I think that nobody should be accepted into the priesthood until they have been married. I think that the priesthood should be a commitment made by both marriage partners. I don't think that single people should be priests. It is simply too big a burden to carry alone. Once you become a priest and start taking confessions, you are on your own with the worries of the world. It is a very lonely place.

As to whether gay priests should be accepted, that's a tough one and I am not qualified to make the call. I think though that there is too much demonization of gays who are neither pedophiles nor rapists, and too little recognition of the fact that Catholics are sometimes gay too. I think it is tragic. and a mistake, that the Catholic faith cannot find space for its gay brethern. These are valuable contributing members of the rainbow that is our society.

[betsy]

As to whether gay priests should be accepted, that's a tough one and I am not qualified to make the call. I think though that there is too much demonization of gays who are neither pedophiles nor rapists, and too little recognition of the fact that Catholics are sometimes gay too. I think it is tragic. and a mistake, that the Catholic faith cannot find space for its gay brethern. These are valuable contributing members of the rainbow that is our society.

I have no problems with gays wanting to become priests....as long as they adhere to the teachings of Christ.

Some gays are trying to do the right thing...but they are only human...and if they fall into sin and practice homosexuality (with consenting adults, and not MINORS), I believe that is between them and God. It is not for me to judge them.

For those who tampers with minors and/or indulge in pedophilia, I hope to see the law come HARDER ON THEM, as would the law should come harder on ANYONE who holds power and authority, regardless of whether they are heterosexuals or of any other sexual orientations!

I do have big problems though, when gay priests enforce their lifestyle to be accepted in a Christian church....trying to enforce what they think should be included and ought to be done with the Christian faith.....knowing fully well that homosexuality is considered a sin and according to Jesus, un-natural.

I don't care what the lefties and advocates want to make of this teachings. They can argue about their political correctness til they're all blue in their faces!

The fact still remains that homosexuality is considered a sin in the Catholic faith....and no lefties nor homosexual activists could make a true Christian change his belief about that.

[Higgly]

Yeh, that is a tough one. I think there really needs to be a Synod on this. A fair Synod. And on the subject of married priests as well. I think that there is now a rare window of opportunity for the Church to bring itself into the twentieth century. I am not sure Ratzinger has the right stuff. Just the fact that we refer to him as Ratzinger tells a tale, doesn't it? He really screwed the pooch with his comments about the Islamic faith. There is no way he can reconcile papal infallibility with that. I think he is toast.

[betsy]

Yeh, that is a tough one. I think there really needs to be a Synod on this. A fair Synod. And on the subject of married priests as well. I think that there is now a rare window of opportunity for the Church to bring itself into the twentieth century. I am not sure Ratzinger has the right stuff. Just the fact that we refer to him as Ratzinger tells a tale, doesn't it? He really screwed the pooch with his comments about the Islamic faith. There is no way he can reconcile papal infallibility with that. I think he is toast.

Just a question, why does the Church need to bring itself to the 20th century?

[betsy]

Perverts become priests....not because they want to spread the teachings of Christ.

Maybe. And psychopaths become cops. But I digress.

I was raised a Catholic. I still remember our parish priest showing up unannounced for dinner one Friday night (to see if we were eating fish) and lecturing my mother and father about their parental obligations. I still remember my parents being absolutely livid with rage after he left. These were good Catholics who had sacrificed every week when the basket came around and shephered their brood into the church on every Sunday and Holy Day. We were expected to go to confession every Friday. We almost always did and held our breaths all through Saturday so we could take communion on Sunday morning.

I think that all priests should be allowed to marry. In fact I think that nobody should be accepted into the priesthood until they have been married. I think that the priesthood should be a commitment made by both marriage partners. I don't think that single people should be priests. It is simply too big a burden to carry alone. Once you become a priest and start taking confessions, you are on your own with the worries of the world. It is a very lonely place.

I guess it depends on whom you get as a priest. Your experience with that priest checking up on you at dinner....that was really awful.

I'm not sure what the reason is why the Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.

My father explained that if he is married, his focus will of course, be more directed towards his own family instead of his flock....especially when he has to also deal with the everyday reality of dealing with wife and children.

[newbie]

I'm not sure what the reason is why the Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.

My father explained that if he is married, his focus will of course, be more directed towards his own family instead of his flock....especially when he has to also deal with the everyday reality of dealing with wife and children.

Seems to me it has something to do with the fact that when a priest dies, much of his estate reverts back to the church. And other faiths have married ministers. It's a joke Betsy, and an old man's club as far as I'm concerned. Bringing the church into the 21st century would mean getting rid of celibacy, married priests, flushing out all the perverts and paedophiles, and offering a mass that young people can relate to. Alas, that won't happen in my lifetime.

[betsy]

Bringing the church into the 21st century would mean getting rid of celibacy, married priests, flushing out all the perverts and paedophiles, and offering a mass that young people can relate to. Alas, that won't happen in my lifetime.

I remember the excitement when they did some changes with the service when I was young....choir singing was "modernized". Guitars and lyrics/melodies were youth-friendly. No problem with that.

But now that I got older, somehow I long for the solemnity and the old traditional rituals (it has something to do with age I guess).

But getting rid of celibacy.....how will it flush out perverts and pedophiles?

There is no rule about celibacy or marital status with schools and daycares, and yet they get these perverts.

As a matter of fact, a lot of pedophiles are married with children. Married men picking up minor girls.

Marriage does not stop anyone from having their sexual fantasies (sick or not).....how many married men pick up hookers?

Getting rid of children and minors from the church is I think the most effective way of flushing out these pedophiles and perverts who prey on minors.

[betsy]

Getting rid of children and minors from the church is I think the most effective way of flushing out these pedophiles and perverts who prey on minors.

But then of course....perhaps 20 years from now...the church will be facing another big accusation: age descrimination.

[betsy]

Seems to me it has something to do with the fact that when a priest dies, much of his estate reverts back to the church. And other faiths have married ministers.

Other Christian faiths had splintered from the Catholic faith....because they have a different view or interpretation.

I'm not sure about this.... but I think the Protestant Church came to be because of some monarch wishing to divorce his queen in order to marry his mistress? And of course, divorce is not allowed by the Catholic Church.

I think that was a way to go. If someone strongly think differently about a particular institution's belief and faith....then they should start their own.

As someone pointed out somewhere in the forum...some churches offer marriage to gays....then, what's stopping gays from going to those churches and getting their church wedding?

Some churches have women ministers....then, what's stopping those women who strongly believe that women should be allowed to become ministers....from joining those churches? Those churches identify themselves as christian churches, and obviously they share the same belief as these women!

So why are they still insisting on the Catholic Church (or any other Christian Churches that refuses to recognize women ministers and SSM) to change its way...to accomodate their incompatible beliefs?

What's the real agenda here?

What about us who share the old traditional beliefs....why are we being FORCED to forego what we believe in?

Whether some may say that our belief is wrong...or outdated....or descriminatory....it is still our belief.

[betsy]

Now that Ratzinger is stirring up religious division it's perhaps more important than ever to re-examine who this man is.

He is the man who wanted to protect sexual abusers in the church and even put it in writing:

So in short.....don't tell the cops about allegations of sexual abuse...and claim the right to withold evidence of such abuse for at least a decade after the victims 18 year birthday.

This is the morally bereft human being who is now engaging in open attacks on the Muslim faith. Is it stupidity, or something worse?

Let's get back to your main focal point, Gerry.

If you feel so strongly about it....to the point of condemnation without trial, based on your flimsy "evidence" that's nothing more than a letter whose contents have not been published, and that you say we have no need to see or read....then what do you make of EGALE?

Based on this, by their own letter...suggesting that society should not have any age of consent at all?

EGALE’s submission on Age of Consent to the Department of Justice Canada

March 30, 2000

Child Victim Consultation

Family, Children, and Youth Section

Department of Justice Canada

284 Wellington Street

Ottawa, ON

K1A 0H8

This submission responds to your consultation paper titled “Child Victims and the Criminal Justice System,” dated November 1999 (“the Justice Paper”), which raises the questions:

Should the general age of consent to sexual activity be changed?

The setting of an absolute age of consent is an inevitably imperfect line drawing exercise. No matter where the line is drawn, some otherwise healthy sexual activity will be criminalized and some harmful activity will be permitted. Both effects are of concern, and both should be considered.

http://www.egale.ca/index.asp?lang=E&m...37&item=348

This letter strongly suggests where EGALE stands and how they feel that society should accept pedophilia. Not only does this EGALE seems to want to endorse this sexual activity as just another lifestyle...........but it is also taking some steps to offer protection for pedophiles and homosexuals who abuse minors, by convincing society to make those activities, legal.

Let me say that again Gerry. EGALE is not only giving its opinion...but it is also TAKING SOME STEPS to do something about it.

In short...we will have NO NEED to report these activities to the cops...if they are deemed legal!

I wouldn't call them stupid, for they seem to know what they're doing and how to go about it.

So where do you stand on this?

Backed by this indisputable proof.....and not just an "allegation" about the existence of some letter that allegedly is proof of "obstructing" justice.

Don't you agree then that EGALE is undoubtedly being LED by "morally bereft human beings?"

Or worse?

[betsy]

Newbie, I'd appreciate if you give your two cents about this.

I'd like to hear your opinion about the post I made above #121.

[jbg]

But getting rid of celibacy.....how will it flush out perverts and pedophiles?

Because right now, the rule that priests must be "celibate" as a practical matter means simply that they are not and never have been married. There is no way to verify whether they've had other, unrecorded encounters. Thus, the far greater chance that you've getting perverts and pedophiles.

[geoffrey]

But getting rid of celibacy.....how will it flush out perverts and pedophiles?

Because right now, the rule that priests must be "celibate" as a practical matter means simply that they are not and never have been married. There is no way to verify whether they've had other, unrecorded encounters. Thus, the far greater chance that you've getting perverts and pedophiles.

That is some pretty convoluted reasoning there. There are just as many married creeps, adding them in doesn't really help.

[Argus]

But getting rid of celibacy.....how will it flush out perverts and pedophiles?

Because right now, the rule that priests must be "celibate" as a practical matter means simply that they are not and never have been married. There is no way to verify whether they've had other, unrecorded encounters. Thus, the far greater chance that you've getting perverts and pedophiles.

The real result of the celibacy rules is in deterring so many others who would otherwise be interested in pursueing a life in the priesthood. This causes the Church to accept applicants which in all likelihood would not otherwise meet their standards. The shortage of priests also makes it more difficult to replace priests, and causes the Church to be more, shall we say, forgiving of misconduct of all kinds.