Let's not forget what Pope Benidict is...

[betsy]

Will you admit that his letter constituted an attempt to hide information about pedophilia/child rape??[/b]

I did not see any letter from the link you gave above.

[gerryhatrick]

The truth is that you don't know why these men are pedophiles.

You don't know if they're attracted to the job because it presents power and opportunity to diddle little kids, or if the job turns then in that direction.

If I follow that rationale....

You mean a straight guy can be turned to sodomize 14 year olds, thereby turning him into a homosexual?

Homosexuality, like pedophilia, can actually be an acquired lifestyle?

You're so blinded by your hatred of homosexuals you aren't even reading my post.

I was responding to your assertion that they were attracted to the job because the "power and opportunity" would give them little kids to diddle.

You don't know if it was that, or if the job (absolute power, opportunity over little kids, celibacy, ect.) TURNS them that way.

[gerryhatrick]

Do you have any condemnation for Ratzinger at all?

Condemnations are for those already proven guilty.

The fact that he signed the letter described in the topic link is not in question.

You are demonstrating your willingness to turn a blind eye when you choose. Your credibility is damaged as a result.

[betsy]

The truth is that you don't know why these men are pedophiles.

You don't know if they're attracted to the job because it presents power and opportunity to diddle little kids, or if the job turns then in that direction.

If I follow that rationale....

You mean a straight guy can be turned to sodomize 14 year olds, thereby turning him into a homosexual?

Homosexuality, like pedophilia, can actually be an acquired lifestyle?

You don't know if it was that, or if the job (absolute power, opportunity over little kids, celibacy, ect.) TURNS them that way.

Exactly. That's why I'm saying that what you're suggesting is the POSSIBILITY that homosexuality and pedophilia is practiced....just because of what comes with certain jobs? That it's possible, a straight guy can suddenly just become a homosexual or pedophile simply because of the nature of the job?

If it can become an acquired lifestyle .....then that means someone can easily be introduced...or initiated... into that kind of lifestyle as well?

So, you are questioning the oft-repeated premise that homosexuality is definitely biological. You are now suggesting the possibility that it can be an acquired lifestyle after all?

[betsy]

Do you have any condemnation for Ratzinger at all?

Condemnations are for those already proven guilty.

The fact that he signed the letter described in the topic link is not in question.

You are demonstrating your willingness to turn a blind eye when you choose. Your credibility is damaged as a result.

Here's an excerpt from your link:

Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry

Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret

Jamie Doward, religious affairs correspondent

Sunday April 24, 2005

The Observer

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

-----------------

The fact that your very own link quoted the word "OBSTRUCTED" means it is not a proven fact.

Furthermore, it says that he is facing CLAIMS. Claims and allegations does not necessarily mean a guilty verdict.

You are deliberately turning a blind eye on the quoted word "obstructed" and the use of the word, claims....which suggests a zealousness on your part to see this man branded "guilty." So let's not speak of credibility.

Anyway, I have acknowledged and I do believe that abuses are happening in the church....just because the power that comes with the job-title of being a priest is like a powerful magnet that attracts perverts.

I would like to see a better screening process...and offenders should be de-frocked immediately. I like to see criminal charges being laid on the culprits. In fact, I'd like to see the law come down harder on anyone using authority and power over children and minors.

These perverts not only hurt their victims and families....but also do grievous damage to the church.

[Argus]

You are demonstrating your willingness to turn a blind eye when you choose. Your credibility is damaged as a result.

Hmph. Just imagine what shape your credibility is in.

[gerryhatrick]

Do you have any condemnation for Ratzinger at all?

Condemnations are for those already proven guilty.

The fact that he signed the letter described in the topic link is not in question.

You are demonstrating your willingness to turn a blind eye when you choose. Your credibility is damaged as a result.

Here's an excerpt from your link:

Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry

Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret

Jamie Doward, religious affairs correspondent

Sunday April 24, 2005

The Observer

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

-----------------

The fact that your very own link quoted the word "OBSTRUCTED" means it is not a proven fact.

Furthermore, it says that he is facing CLAIMS. Claims and allegations does not necessarily mean a guilty verdict.

You are deliberately turning a blind eye on the quoted word "obstructed" and the use of the word, claims....which suggests a zealousness on your part to see this man branded "guilty." So let's not speak of credibility.

Anyway, I have acknowledged and I do believe that abuses are happening in the church....just because the power that comes with the job-title of being a priest is like a powerful magnet that attracts perverts.

I would like to see a better screening process...and offenders should be de-frocked immediately. I like to see criminal charges being laid on the culprits. In fact, I'd like to see the law come down harder on anyone using authority and power over children and minors.

These perverts not only hurt their victims and families....but also do grievous damage to the church.

But, I gather, you have no problem at all with a letter from Ratzinger instructing Bishops to keep allegations and evidence of child molestation secret?

[betsy]

Do you have any condemnation for Ratzinger at all?

Condemnations are for those already proven guilty.

The fact that he signed the letter described in the topic link is not in question.

You are demonstrating your willingness to turn a blind eye when you choose. Your credibility is damaged as a result.

Here's an excerpt from your link:

Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry

Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret

Jamie Doward, religious affairs correspondent

Sunday April 24, 2005

The Observer

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

-----------------

The fact that your very own link quoted the word "OBSTRUCTED" means it is not a proven fact.

Furthermore, it says that he is facing CLAIMS. Claims and allegations does not necessarily mean a guilty verdict.

You are deliberately turning a blind eye on the quoted word "obstructed" and the use of the word, claims....which suggests a zealousness on your part to see this man branded "guilty." So let's not speak of credibility.

Anyway, I have acknowledged and I do believe that abuses are happening in the church....just because the power that comes with the job-title of being a priest is like a powerful magnet that attracts perverts.

I would like to see a better screening process...and offenders should be de-frocked immediately. I like to see criminal charges being laid on the culprits. In fact, I'd like to see the law come down harder on anyone using authority and power over children and minors.

These perverts not only hurt their victims and families....but also do grievous damage to the church.

But, I gather, you have no problem at all with a letter from Ratzinger instructing Bishops to keep allegations and evidence of child molestation secret?

I've yet to see and read the letter in its whole context. As the link says, there is a lawsuit.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that it will be irresponsible and unfair to jump in swinging without knowing the full details.

Do you have any more follow-up to this incident? That link is dated 2005. I've tried searching for recent news related to it...can't find anything on the net.

[gerryhatrick]

I've yet to see and read the letter in its whole context. As the link says, there is a lawsuit.

I'm sure you'll agree with me that it will be irresponsible and unfair to jump in swinging without knowing the full details.

The details of the letter have been reported in the media, and are not in dispute.

You do not need to see it or it's "whole context" to express your condemnation, if you had any.

I must assume you forgive Ratzinger for ordering Bishops to keep allegations and evidence child molestation secret for 10 years past the accusers 18th birthday.

You're not a homosexual, are you?

[betsy]

The details of the letter have been reported in the media, and are not in dispute.

You do not need to see it or it's "whole context" to express your condemnation, if you had any.

Eh?

Just because it is reported in the media does not make it so. Didn't you just see how the Pope's quotations were taken out of context....and used as a springboard to have another violent protest?

You are not an extremist Muslim masquerading as a gay on this forum, are you?

[betsy]

You do not need to see it or it's "whole context" to express your condemnation, if you had any.

In other words, you're more than willing and quick to pass judgement....condemn...and give a guilty verdict on anyone based on hearsay.

Your opinions are formed mostly that way, by your own words.

So....you just admitted to your own lack of credibility.

[betsy]

I must assume you forgive Ratzinger for ordering Bishops to keep allegations and evidence child molestation secret for 10 years past the accusers 18th birthday.

You're not a homosexual, are you?

I must assume you reserve your condemnation SOLELY for the man who had not done the actual sodomizing and molestations.

You conveniently overlook the homosexuals and pedophiles who actually did the crime....placing more zeal in your wild attempt to make us all brand a man "guilty", based on hearsay and media reports. According to you, there is even NO NEED to read the letter!

You seem to try to find a convenient scapegoat to put the finger of blame on somebody. A persistent buzzing in my inner ear suggests this could be an attempt on your part to take the heat away from the actual perpetrators.

I suspect this thread which was created by you solely for the bashing of the Pope, did not really stem from your deep abiding concern for the diddled kids and coerced minors......but rather due to one simple reason: this Pope dared to stand fast against acceptance of homosexuality as a normal lifestyle. He also had the audacity to speak out about it.

There is no condemnation from you regarding the actual perverts who did the crime. Actually, your only reactions (and it was not just a mild reaction mind you), are words of indignations that I dare imply the existence of homosexual conspiracies within the church. Then you also put the finger of possible blame...on the nature of the job! That it could be the job of being a priest that made them do it!

You even went far to suggest homosexuality is not solely biological, contradicting the popular assertions that it is. Now you suggest it can actually be an acquired lifestyle. One can develop a liking for it. Perhaps that's why 14 year olds are preferable age for initiation?

I can't help but think....gee Gerry, you seem to have a soft spot for these homosexuals and diddlers of little kids and minors, don't you?

[newbie]

You do not need to see it or it's "whole context" to express your condemnation, if you had any.

In other words, you're more than willing and quick to pass judgement....condemn...and give a guilty verdict on anyone based on hearsay.

Besty, in my experience, I know that Bishops used to protect and coddle their pedophile priests. I had a bishop basically tell me that prior to his death. So it is no surprise that the Holy See would want to keep the tradition going. That's obstruction of justice as far as I'm concerned. Given all the cases (Boston, New Mexico, etc.) that have exposed peodophile priests, just imagine what lie beneath the surface. People don't come forward (civil cases) because of the manipulation of the law that the Church's lawyers play. I became a recovering catholic because of it. I refused to put money into the plate that ultimately supports this nefarious activity and provide counselling and or money needed to heal the victims they produced.

[betsy]

Besty, in my experience, I know that Bishops used to protect and coddle their pedophile priests. I had a bishop basically tell me that prior to his death. So it is no surprise that the Holy See would want to keep the tradition going. That's obstruction of justice as far as I'm concerned. Given all the cases (Boston, New Mexico, etc.) that have exposed peodophile priests, just imagine what lie beneath the surface. People don't come forward (civil cases) because of the manipulation of the law that the Church's lawyers play. I became a recovering catholic because of it. I refused to put money into the plate that ultimately supports this nefarious activity and provide counselling and or money needed to heal the victims they produced.

Well, I for one do not disagree with you on that. I, too find it questionable why some priests are being transferred or seemed to have been "coddled" and "protected by some higher-ups. And based on an investigative finding done during the height of the scandal (and the experience of my friend which supports the investigative report), excerpts and link of which I had posted in old topic, somewhere in NAMBLA thread I think, it had been acknowledged that there are cliques within the church who protect and shield one another.

As I had stated in my post above, I would like to see the law come down on these perpetrators.....to come down even HARDER...for it is grievously wrong to use the church and the symbol of the frock...manipulating, corrupting, molesting victims in the name of God. The church is greatly damaged. Trust is broken and in turn, Faith is greatly eroded.

When faced with these atrocities and all the emotions it brings, it is easy to forget that the pope...for all the divine things he represents is only but human too. Who could easily falll into temptation...or make grievous error in judgement, like you and I.

Who knows, he may have done something wrong....or not. Whatever his motives are, he may have done a grave error in judgement.

My stance is that I do not wish to be prodded into heaping condemnation on him unless he is proven guilty. ESPECIALLY when the motives of those who prods are highly questionable too.

At the very least, I would've like to read the letter...in its full context.

I do not wish to rush in screaming "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!" based on a media report....which only made a reference to such letter. The letter was not even published...therefore, although its existence may have been established, the full contents of this letter and its full meaning is all speculations at this point for all of us in this forum. I have no wish to brand him "guilty" based merely on speculations. Your posts had given me the impression that you are a sensible person.....therefore I think you'll see what I mean.

[newbie]

I would like to see him give a full apology to the world regarding the conduct of his subordinates. And Ill bet some of those perpetrators are Cardinals as well. Time will tell how he will handle this matter. I'm just a little leery however, based on my experiences with this organization.

[gerryhatrick]

The details of the letter have been reported in the media, and are not in dispute.

You do not need to see it or it's "whole context" to express your condemnation, if you had any.

Eh?

You just pegged yourself as an American since you clearly don't understand the use of that word.

Just because it is reported in the media does not make it so.

But usually it does betsy. Unfortunately it usually does, and that's just something you're going to have to face.

[betsy]

Eh?

You just pegged yourself as an American since you clearly don't understand the use of that word.

Eh?

Use in what way, Gerry? How?

Is there an exclusive claim to this expression?

You mean I cannot use it freely as a personal expression without being pegged down as "American"...or "Canadian"...or whatever it is that suits you to label someone?

One thing showing clearly: you're obsessed with branding and labelling. Some may mis-interpret that as a sign of bigotry.

[betsy]

I would like to see him give a full apology to the world regarding the conduct of his subordinates. And Ill bet some of those perpetrators are Cardinals as well.

If there is any apology that should be made at all....I think this should be it.

Being the head of the church, I would like to see him issue an apology to all those atrocities done in the name of the church.

I would also like to see him publicly castigate those evil men who use and hide behind the cloth just to indulge in their sick perversities. And publicly urge those who have not been caught yet to voluntarily leave the church. That if they have any fear and respect for God at all...they should leave if they cannot be sure to contain themselves from carrying out their perversities.

Falling into sin is one thing....but falling into sin AND committing a crime and hurting someone else at the same time is another.

I would also like to see and hear every priest issue forth the same apologies in their own parishes...apologise for the sins of their brothers who had done the deeds...and for those who had failed their parishioners by either being accomplices or wilfully turning a blind eye.

It is time to fix the damage that had been done to the church.

[betsy]

I'm just a little leery however, based on my experiences with this organization.

I understand that trust is shattered.

My friend says he saw the priest who molested him once on the street. The priest is quite an old man now.

He said on that occasion he wanted so much to come up to him and tell him how much he hurt him. At the same time my friend said a part of him just don't want to be bothered.

My friend, after all what's been done to him...had not turned his back on God. It was a man who had wronged him. Not God.

In fact, he is not a Catholic....and yet, he is supporting and admiring the Church for its continuous steadfast stance on a lot of issues.

[gerryhatrick]

You mean I cannot use it freely as a personal expression without being pegged down as "American"...or "Canadian"...or whatever it is that suits you to label someone?

Go ahead and do whatever you want betsy, quit acting like such a victim.

And is that all being American is to you, a "label"?

[geoffrey]

Being the head of the church, I would like to see him issue an apology to all those atrocities done in the name of the church.

None of these acts were done in the name of the Church.

[newbie]

Being the head of the church, I would like to see him issue an apology to all those atrocities done in the name of the church.

None of these acts were done in the name of the Church.

Nah, just done in Parish offices and living rooms.

[betsy]

Being the head of the church, I would like to see him issue an apology to all those atrocities done in the name of the church.

None of these acts were done in the name of the Church.

But I would bet a lot of these perverts got really close to their chosen victims (and had gained complete trust of families) simply because of the frocks their wear.

The apology does not mean that the Church itself did something wrong.

It is acknowledging that abuses happened and that some priests used the Church and manipulated its teachings to their own personal advantage to gain access to their victims.

I think we need to make a major step in order for us to start fixing the damage. Perhaps the apology serves to bridge the gap and help to heal some wounds.

The Church is a victim too.

[betsy]

You mean I cannot use it freely as a personal expression without being pegged down as "American"...or "Canadian"...or whatever it is that suits you to label someone?

Go ahead and do whatever you want betsy, quit acting like such a victim.

And is that all being American is to you, a "label"?

From your serious topic about the Pope...you're now focusing on being American and the proper usage of an expression. All because of a simple "eh?"

I see you're still using the same tactics of steering away from your real topic. Cos your arguments are getting nuked? Because you're tripping all over your own statements?

Well, from what you've displayed from previous debates, this is a cue for me to make my fast exit and run for cover....before you explode into hysterical petulant fits.

[Drea]

It is time to fix the damage that had been done to the church.

"... done TO the church"?

Surely you meant "done BY the church"

Sickos abound and are protected by their "leaders".

In secular society we don't protect perverts. So much for "morals of the church"