Let's not forget what Pope Benidict is...

[kimmy]

But getting rid of celibacy.....how will it flush out perverts and pedophiles?

Because right now, the rule that priests must be "celibate" as a practical matter means simply that they are not and never have been married. There is no way to verify whether they've had other, unrecorded encounters. Thus, the far greater chance that you've getting perverts and pedophiles.

That is some pretty convoluted reasoning there. There are just as many married creeps, adding them in doesn't really help.

That strikes me as unlikely.

Given a group of men who are married and have demonstrated sexual relationships with women, and a group of men who claim to be celibate and can't discuss their sexual urges, I've got a strong hunch which group is going to have more homosexuals, perverts, and pedophiles. Deliberately limiting your candidate search to members of that group strikes me as a likely way of hiring a larger-than-average number of creeps.

-k

[sharkman]

Look around you. There are scores of women who are single and no hope of a meaningful relationship. It's not fair, but it's reality. Do you think every last one of them are craving sex at any cost? No, some of them are celibate, it's just how life turned out for them. And men too. They are lonely and live with it, no big deal.

But when they become a priest, all of a sudden they are devient? I don't buy it.

[newbie]

And men too. They are lonely and live with it, no big deal. But when they become a priest, all of a sudden they are devient? I don't buy it.

Some of these folks, if they didn't have problems before, developed them in the church as it breeds this behaviour by its abnormal relationships. Priests live together, and were involved in many young people's sporting activities. They got to know the dysfunctional familes through invited suppers, confessional, and through personal counselling. You have to remember they were once treated as God's messengers who could do no wrong. Young kids were sexually abused, threatened and/or told to keep things secret. When parents found out they either denied it or blamed the child for lying. But when caught red-handed, the bishop just moved the priests around the diocese. This happened time after time. Now there is screening process, but there is still a great shortage, offering more immigrant priests an out from their impoverished countries.

[newbie]

Newbie, I'd appreciate if you give your two cents about this.

I'd like to hear your opinion about the post I made above #121.

There is a difference between consensual sex and using one's authority to coerce and in effect rape another. I'll never be okay with paedophilia, and there definitely has to be some lines drawn in the sand. Teen sex is one thing, but sexual abuse is another. Having said that, this is also a problem in the workplace and needs addressing as well.

[sharkman]

And men too. They are lonely and live with it, no big deal. But when they become a priest, all of a sudden they are devient? I don't buy it.

Some of these folks, if they didn't have problems before, developed them in the church as it breeds this behaviour by its abnormal relationships. Priests live together, and were involved in many young people's sporting activities. They got to know the dysfunctional familes through invited suppers, confessional, and through personal counselling. You have to remember they were once treated as God's messengers who could do no wrong. Young kids were sexually abused, threatened and/or told to keep things secret. When parents found out they either denied it or blamed the child for lying. But when caught red-handed, the bishop just moved the priests around the diocese. This happened time after time. Now there is screening process, but there is still a great shortage, offering more immigrant priests an out from their impoverished countries.

Yes, and the great majority developed no problems and went on to be effective members of the church. Just like in other vocations. You seem to know a great deal about the Catholic church. Were you a member, or are you just casting stones from afar?

[betsy]

Newbie, I'd appreciate if you give your two cents about this.

I'd like to hear your opinion about the post I made above #121.

There is a difference between consensual sex and using one's authority to coerce and in effect rape another. I'll never be okay with paedophilia, and there definitely has to be some lines drawn in the sand. Teen sex is one thing, but sexual abuse is another. Having said that, this is also a problem in the workplace and needs addressing as well.

When does teen sex become paedophilia?

Right now as I understand it, our age of consent had been upped to 16. EGALE had been fighting it, wanting it instead to be dropped to 14....the reason: a blanket equality for everyone (heteros and homos).

Which is baloney! Whom are they kidding? Upping it to 16 was just as making it equal for everyone (heteros and homos). So, why did they oppose upping to 16?

But of course, the real vision of EGALE (as they've stated in their submission), is to have the age of consent abolished.

Considering they've got a real tough fight on their hands (thanks to neo-cons) getting rid of the age of consent....trying to get the consent to as low as they can is the best they can do I guess....for now.

One little step at a time.

That's why I'd really love to hear Gerry's opinion about this....given his very strong abhorrence of pedophiles that he had started this topic and proceeded to smear and condemn the leader of the Catholic church....while conveniently overlooking the comparison between what the leaders of EGALE is actually trying to accomplish. So far I'm still waiting for Gerry's opinion.

Ironic isn't it. A letter for a letter.

On one hand, condemnation of a man over an alleged letter which contents is still a mystery to us all allegedly attempting to "obstruct justice".....while on the other hand, another letter submitted to the government and published, the copy of which is prominently and proudly displayed in the official site of EGALE, taking steps to offer protections for pedophiles by lobbying subtly for the elimination of the age of consent. If the elimination is not possible at the moment...well, they could settle to lowering it to 14 then. After all, it's better than nothing.

[betsy]

Some of these folks, if they didn't have problems before,

But that's it. We don't know that.

Being gay or having sick fantasies about children is not wrong or a crime....until they act on it.

[betsy]

Some of these folks, if they didn't have problems before, developed them in the church as it breeds this behaviour by its abnormal relationships. Priests live together, and were involved in many young people's sporting activities.

Then those types are latent homosexuals. And/or have tendencies for pedophilia.

Some priests, despite having lived in the same conditions you've described as any other priests...end up having sex with females! Adult females. They end up with mistresses.

So...why didn't they go for males? Why females?

Because they are heterosexuals...that's why.

I had a cousin who was studying to become a priest. Before making their final decisions, they are let loose in the outside world to test themselves if they're suited to priesthood. My cousin continued his eduation in a regular co-ed college....and ended up eloping and marrying his classmate, a woman I hastily add.

I would understand a young teen "experimenting" with erotic acts with that of same sex...usually out of curiousity...and the normal hormones that are surging...or being confused with one's own sexuality! I must add that not all young teens go through this, but if it does happened I wouldn't say it isn't normal.

You hear about it all the time in exclusive girls' schools! I'd say it is normal for young teens to experiment on one another at a certain time in their life. A good friend grew up in an exclusive school for girls and told us of the "kissing" and "touching" between some girls. She herself had experimented, she said. And yet, she did not turn out to become a lesbian....she liked men!

It only becomes a sick experience when an adult lesbian teacher carries her duty of "teaching" a little bit too far and indulge in sexual "experimentation" with these young girls. Her maturity, authority and power....makes it easy to exploit and use and abuse these teens for self-gratification.

[betsy]

They got to know the dysfunctional familes through invited suppers, confessional, and through personal counselling. You have to remember they were once treated as God's messengers who could do no wrong.

Which only cement the most logical reason: priesthood attracts perverts like a moth to a flame.

It IS the PERFECT setting for any pervert who wants to get to his preferred prey....whether that be of children, or young girls, or 14 year-old boys.

[betsy]

But when caught red-handed, the bishop just moved the priests around the diocese. This happened time after time. Now there is screening process, but there is still a great shortage, offering more immigrant priests an out from their impoverished countries.

How can the Vatican keep up with these incidents happening in places all over the world? It's like a nation's president being given details of every tiny corruptions happening everywhere, including small villages and hamlets and counties all over the country?

There is a group of homosexual priests (and bishops or cardinals among them I imagine) who protect and shield one another. I think a lot of these transferring around and trying to hush it up (before the scandal reaches the Vatican level) are done by those who belong to or share the same penchant for whatever crime it was that was done.

[newbie]

Yes, and the great majority developed no problems and went on to be effective members of the church. Just like in other vocations. You seem to know a great deal about the Catholic church. Were you a member, or are you just casting stones from afar?

Let's just say I know a lot about the inner workings of the church, but am not at liberty to say much under threat of lawsuit. I can say that to compare the amount of deviant priests, bishops and cardinals to other professions is laughable. Unfortuntately, they all cover for each other.

[sharkman]

Yes, and the great majority developed no problems and went on to be effective members of the church. Just like in other vocations. You seem to know a great deal about the Catholic church. Were you a member, or are you just casting stones from afar?

Let's just say I know a lot about the inner workings of the church, but am not at liberty to say much under threat of lawsuit. I can say that to compare the amount of deviant priests, bishops and cardinals to other professions is laughable. Unfortuntately, they all cover for each other.

How about teachers? Another one was caught last week with child porn on his computer, in Thailand, I believe. Not sure what the B.C. teacher was doing there. But I must concede that the priest problem could have been dealt with better.

[betsy]

I can say that to compare the amount of deviant priests, bishops and cardinals to other professions is laughable. Unfortuntately, they all cover for each other.

Because priesthood is THE BEST profession there is for perverts!

And considering Christianity being such an ancient religion....stretching on for generations....it is not surprising to know that perverts are DEEPLY imbedded in this institution. We're talking generations.

How to weed them out and bust these homosexual and pedophile cliques is a tough question....with hardly any sure-fire solutions in sight.

[newbie]

How to weed them out and bust these homosexual and pedophile cliques is a tough question....with hardly any sure-fire solutions in sight.

Allow priests to marry and utilize and ordain women as priests as well. That might help a little bit.

[betsy]

How to weed them out and bust these homosexual and pedophile cliques is a tough question....with hardly any sure-fire solutions in sight.

Allow priests to marry and utilize and ordain women as priests as well. That might help a little bit.

It is this ultimate authority and power, you see, that can be wielded effectively. Imagine a young boy fearing to offend this pervert whom he sees as the representative of God...of course the pervert would play up to that.

The most effective way is to prevent it from happening.

I think the church should re-plan activities that happen out of the service (like choir practice, fund raising etc.) It should be made mandatory that children be accompanied by their parents or designated guardians/chaperones if they do participate in such activities.

Women from Christian organizations such as Catholic Womens' League or Ladies of Charity should volunteer to chaperone if necesarry....and only qualified to become chaperones after undergoing the usual security checks they do for daycare employees. This is not only for the protection of children...but for the protection of priests as well.

The church should take an active role in preventing any opportunities for perverts to have access to children and minors.

Let the perverts become priests if they insist...for it is almost impossible to know who they are. Let's see how long they will stay with the church if they find they cannot get their hands on the goodies.

[betsy]

As a parent I would counsel my own child (older children) about blind trust. Priests are humans after all.

Same as you would prepare your child to protect himself and watch out for predators....priest or not!

It is an essential survival tool and skill for any child nowadays.

Parents will just have to be much more involved now. Religion or not! That's the way it is.

[gerryhatrick]

As a parent I would counsel my own child (older children) about blind trust. Priests are humans after all.

And as a parent, how would you feel knowing that your religious leaders had been instructed to withold evidence of sexual abuse against children?

[betsy]

As a parent I would counsel my own child (older children) about blind trust. Priests are humans after all.

And as a parent, how would you feel knowing that your religious leaders had been instructed to withold evidence of sexual abuse against children?

How do YOU feel about EGALE wanting to abolish age of consent....so these religious leaders in Canada will not have the need to be allegedly "instructed to withold evidences of sexual abuse"...since it wouldn't be a crime anymore to diddle minors at the ripe age of 14...and those younger ages for pedophiles?

[gerryhatrick]

As a parent I would counsel my own child (older children) about blind trust. Priests are humans after all.

And as a parent, how would you feel knowing that your religious leaders had been instructed to withold evidence of sexual abuse against children?

How do YOU feel about EGALE wanting to abolish age of consent....so these religious leaders in Canada will not have the need to be allegedly "instructed to withold evidences of sexual abuse"...since it wouldn't be a crime anymore to diddle minors at the ripe age of 14...and those younger ages for pedophiles?

I disagree with it.

Now answer my question please.

As a parent, how would you feel knowing that your religious leaders had been instructed to withold evidence of sexual abuse against children?

[geoffrey]

As a parent, how would you feel knowing that your religious leaders had been instructed to withold evidence of sexual abuse against children?

I'm not a parent, but I'd be a little pissed. Being said, what actually happened isn't what you stated.

[blueblood]

This is a crying shame and is one of those stereotypes of our society that we all must pay for the mistakes of some which i believe is liberal philosophy in a nutshell. I feel sorry for the large group of priests and bishops that DON'T do that sort of thing and actually take their role in life seriously and are actually some of the nicest and best people a person could ever meet, to lump them in with the pervert ones holds as much water as saying all Muslims are terrorists.

For the pervert priests they should be charged with the full weight of the law, plus an excommunication by the pope, for those of you not familiar with catholicism that means kicked out of the church with a one way ticket to hell and being as priests are very religious that in itself is a big punishment.

It's funny to see some people equate the Church with homosexuality and pedophelia which is something that the Church is firmly against.

[betsy]

How do YOU feel about EGALE wanting to abolish age of consent....so these religious leaders in Canada will not have the need to be allegedly "instructed to withold evidences of sexual abuse"...since it wouldn't be a crime anymore to diddle minors at the ripe age of 14...and those younger ages for pedophiles?

I disagree with it.

Now answer my question please.

As a parent, how would you feel knowing that your religious leaders had been instructed to withold evidence of sexual abuse against children?

But I do not know for sure if our religious leaders had been truly instructed to "withold evidence", as you, and the lawyer for the complainant, had alleged.

That's a big difference with EGALE isn't it?

EGALE had even itself, posted the letter they've themselves submitted...thereby providing proof where my position is standing on. You can say that my argument comes straight from the horse's mouth.

While your position stands on....thin air. You've got nothing. And I refuse to put myself in such an irresponsible and immoral stance of slandering, defaming, judging and condemning a man based on an over-zealous and frivolous assumption.

[betsy]

How do YOU feel about EGALE wanting to abolish age of consent....so these religious leaders in Canada will not have the need to be allegedly "instructed to withold evidences of sexual abuse"...since it wouldn't be a crime anymore to diddle minors at the ripe age of 14...and those younger ages for pedophiles?

I disagree with it.

Now answer my question please.

That's it?

Just a plain, quick, "I disagree?"

Somehow your answer seem to lack conviction.

Where is the fire? The passion? The indignant outrage?

Why aren't you calling for the lynch brigade?

I had expected a tirade of condemnations from you....specially aimed at leaders of a group who yearns for this licences to do as they please with children and minors.........considering your extreme abhorrence to diddling of 14 year olds and acts of pedophilia.

[betsy]

Gerry,

Just think of all the unwitting members of EGALE...a lot of whom had nothing to do at all...or had no wish of being associated with the perverts whom the leaders of EGALE would want to protect from the law. Evidenced by that damning letter from EGALE.

In a way, they are victims.....like the priests of the church. Are they guilty by association?

Their reputation had been put into question...for some could easily look at them with jaundiced eyes and lump them together with the perverts.

[betsy]

Gerry,

Based solely on that damning letter of EGALE which was actually submitted to the government for consideration, concluding that all homosexuals in the gay community are perverts...since EGALE is supposed to represent them...is an irresponsible accusation and gross injustice. Do you agree?