Liberty or security

[Charles Anthony]

My point is, it doesn't matter what they look like. Any coloured (EDIT: should be a person of any colour, white, black, purple... any coloured person sounds psuedo-south slave talk, mistype) person can be swept into Islamic extremism, who knows. Lets check everyone, I'd feel better flying if we did.

Would you search an old and frail nun (EDIT: whose face is as pastey-white as her habit because she never gets outside much) hobbling through with a walker EXACTLY the same way as everybody else??

[Wilber]

If the people you are having a particular problem with are Muslims, it makes sense to look at Muslims but reacting to the hysterics of just anyone or succumbing to a mob mentality is not the way to do it. That's how people were burned as witches.

[Leafless]

If the people you are having a particular problem with are Muslims, it makes sense to look at Muslims but reacting to the hysterics of just anyone or succumbing to a mob mentality is not the way to do it. That's how people were burned as witches.

What a senseless thing to say considering no one is burning Arab Muslims at the stake.

People have a right to be suspicious considering the evidence and track record of terrorist who just happen to be mostly ALL Arab Muslims who have been responsible for the extremely large majority of concerning acts of terrorism.

[Wilber]

If the people you are having a particular problem with are Muslims, it makes sense to look at Muslims but reacting to the hysterics of just anyone or succumbing to a mob mentality is not the way to do it. That's how people were burned as witches.

What a senseless thing to say considering no one is burning Arab Muslims at the stake.

People have a right to be suspicious considering the evidence and track record of terrorist who just happen to be mostly ALL Arab Muslims who have been responsible for the extremely large majority of concerning acts of terrorism.

You don't have the right to point at someone and have them thrown off an aircraft for no other reason than they are a Muslim and look like they may be from the Middle East. The time to screen people is before they get on the aircraft not with knee jerk reactions instigated by any nervous twit who happens to be near by and a mob who decides to follow him. I know no one is considering burning Arabs at the stake but it is the same mentality that did get people burned at the stake.

[lost&outofcontrol]

The choice should be made very simple for the so-called "decent" among Islam; either start turning people over or face intolerable profiling and restrictions.

The ignorance on these forums is incredible. You act like mob bosses when their houses get robbed. You start (escalate) "whacking" people without ever asking yourselves how all that nice stuff got into your house in the first place.

[jbg]

The choice should be made very simple for the so-called "decent" among Islam; either start turning people over or face intolerable profiling and restrictions.

The ignorance on these forums is incredible. You act like mob bosses when their houses get robbed. You start (escalate) "whacking" people without ever asking yourselves how all that nice stuff got into your house in the first place.

Your ignorance is appalling. The choices are to subject everyone to burdensome searches, so that travel, whether by air, train or ship becomes impossibly burdensome and expensive, or to find some way to reduce the number of people inconvenienced.

By the way, I thought most "liberals" prefer mass transit to the private automobile. In the US, if someone has to arrive at the airport 3 hours prior to a one-hour flight from New York City to Boston or Washington (4 or 5 hour drives, respectively) more people will take to the highways. Is that really what you want?

My point simply is that if a community learns that it is being targeted because of quite valid suspicions, they will take steps to end the suspicion.

[Leafless]

The choice should be made very simple for the so-called "decent" among Islam; either start turning people over or face intolerable profiling and restrictions.

The ignorance on these forums is incredible. You act like mob bosses when their houses get robbed. You start (escalate) "whacking" people without ever asking yourselves how all that nice stuff got into your house in the first place.

Tell me, if terrorism is your bag where did you get the initial idea that terrorism is the correct way to go about whatever your group is trying to impress on world societies?

[gc1765]

By the way, I thought most "liberals" prefer mass transit to the private automobile. In the US, if someone has to arrive at the airport 3 hours prior to a one-hour flight from New York City to Boston or Washington (4 or 5 hour drives, respectively) more people will take to the highways. Is that really what you want?

Why do liberals prefer mass transit?

Most of them would say because it takes less fuel. I'm not sure which takes more fuel an airplane or the number of cars equal to the number of people on the plane, but surely a bus must take less fuel?

[jbg]

The choice should be made very simple for the so-called "decent" among Islam; either start turning people over or face intolerable profiling and restrictions.

The ignorance on these forums is incredible. You act like mob bosses when their houses get robbed. You start (escalate) "whacking" people without ever asking yourselves how all that nice stuff got into your house in the first place.

Tell me, if terrorism is your bag where did you get the initial idea that terrorism is the correct way to go about whatever your group is trying to impress on world societies?

The latest fad romanticized by Western self-haters. Before it was Marx, then global warming, now terror.

[Melanie_]

No one is supporting or romanticizing terrorism here. The passenger in question was not a terrorist, he was simply a doctor going about his business, flying home from a conference. Saying he deserved to be treated like a criminal because he was Muslim is equivalent to treating every Catholic priest as a pedophile.

The real fad can be found in those who claim to "love freedom" but are choosy about who it should apply to.

[August1991]

No one is supporting or romanticizing terrorism here. The passenger in question was not a terrorist, he was simply a doctor going about his business, flying home from a conference. Saying he deserved to be treated like a criminal because he was Muslim is equivalent to treating every Catholic priest as a pedophile.

The real fad can be found in those who claim to "love freedom" but are choosy about who it should apply to.

Was he treated as a criminal? Was he charged, convicted and sentenced?

We have all been subject to spot checks while driving a car. More likely than not, we were stopped at Christmas or New Year. Is that discrimination against Christian revellers? No, that's when people too often drive drunk.

Police efforts should not be wasted on useless pursuits. Political correctness is an expensive luxury in a world with more pressing issues. I'm not even certain that political correctness is a desirable goal in itself.

[jdobbin]

Was he treated as a criminal? Was he charged, convicted and sentenced?

Actually, he was treated like a terrorist. They are not usually tried, convicted or sentenced.

[geoffrey]

My point is, it doesn't matter what they look like. Any coloured (EDIT: should be a person of any colour, white, black, purple... any coloured person sounds psuedo-south slave talk, mistype) person can be swept into Islamic extremism, who knows. Lets check everyone, I'd feel better flying if we did.

Would you search an old and frail nun (EDIT: whose face is as pastey-white as her habit because she never gets outside much) hobbling through with a walker EXACTLY the same way as everybody else??

I'd like to see everyone searched. Who knows, did someone take advantage of the nun's fading mind to convince her to borrow her walker while she drank her tea, filled it with explosives?

Obviously a stretch, but I personally perfer that everyone in searched. I'm probably the type that is as far from being searched as a Muslim as possible, but I feel more comfortable when security people take me seriously as I know everyone else is getting the same go-through.

Anyone can be a terrorist. Are Arabs more likely? Absolutely. But it just takes one white guy or one Hispanic women or whatever you will to kill hundreds of people. That's why everyone needs to be search equally.

[August1991]

Was he treated as a criminal? Was he charged, convicted and sentenced?

Actually, he was treated like a terrorist.

He was treated like a suspected terrorist. And then after a short time, he was released.

Worse has happened to me and I walked away from the event shaken but not stirred. This guy seems to have a chip. If he was truly modern, he wouldn't.

Anyone can be a terrorist. Are Arabs more likely? Absolutely. But it just takes one white guy or one Hispanic women or whatever you will to kill hundreds of people. That's why everyone needs to be search equally.

I disagree. On the balance of probabilities, who would you spend more time examining?

[jdobbin]

He was treated like a suspected terrorist. And then after a short time, he was released.

Worse has happened to me and I walked away from the event shaken but not stirred. This guy seems to have a chip.

He asked for an apology and an explanation of what happened. That's a chip?

[August1991]

He asked for an apology and an explanation of what happened. That's a chip?

Hein?

Apology? Explanation? Duh?

It's not a question of fate. It's not a question of face. It's a question of practicality. Any modern, sceptically intelligent person understands that.

Young 22 year old Canadians expect to be carded when they buy booze. They don't ask for apologies or explanations.

[Leafless]

He was treated like a suspected terrorist. And then after a short time, he was released.

Worse has happened to me and I walked away from the event shaken but not stirred. This guy seems to have a chip.

He asked for an apology and an explanation of what happened. That's a chip?

Rather than co-operate, if you follow media reports most suspected terrorist go into some sort of extreme denial like Mahar Arar who has cost the tax payers a small fortune rather than blame himself for travelling at a dangerous time pertaining to terrorist activity.

[Black Dog]

The choice should be made very simple for the so-called "decent" among Islam; either start turning people over or face intolerable profiling and restrictions.

Is tehr eany evidenced broad racial profiling (one idiot, probably at the National Review, suggested a "Muslim-only" security line) works? What does a Muslim look like, anyway? Besides, I know if I was a terrorist and knew that swarthy, bearded males were going to be subject to extra scrutiny, I'd recruit folks who least fit the profile

t's not a question of fate. It's not a question of face. It's a question of practicality. Any modern, sceptically intelligent person understands that.

Actually, it's a question of proportinality. It's one thing to watch for suspicious behaviour, another to jump any time some random drunk starts pointing fingers.

[Wilber]

From what I have read it would seem that this guy is definitely owed an apology from the airline. The security people and the police have both said the airline over reacted. The idea that a bigot with a few too many drinks in him can demand someone be taken off an aircraft and the airline will back him and not apologize when they have obviously made a mistake is disturbing. What will be next, flights get closed an hour earlier and all the passengers have a session of boarding lounge "The Missing Link" to decide who doesn't get to fly?

From the limited amount I've seen it seems to me the drunk should have been the one removed.

The more I see of these incidents the more I think the same mentality that had Japanese North Americans stripped of their belongings and sent to internment camps during WWII, while German and Italian Canadians were left alone, is not far below the surface in our present society.

[Melanie_]

Rather than co-operate, if you follow media reports most suspected terrorist go into some sort of extreme denial like Mahar Arar who has cost the tax payers a small fortune rather than blame himself for travelling at a dangerous time pertaining to terrorist activity.

Now Muslims shouldn't travel? Muslims who are not terrorists shouldn't deny being a terrorist? Leafless, you are being irrational.

[jdobbin]

Young 22 year old Canadians expect to be carded when they buy booze. They don't ask for apologies or explanations.

You expect to be carded not arrested. There's a big difference.

[Leafless]

Rather than co-operate, if you follow media reports most suspected terrorist go into some sort of extreme denial like Mahar Arar who has cost the tax payers a small fortune rather than blame himself for travelling at a dangerous time pertaining to terrorist activity.

Now Muslims shouldn't travel? Muslims who are not terrorists shouldn't deny being a terrorist? Leafless, you are being irrational.

You should face facts.

Pertaining to Canada and the U.S.A the majority White are the host to many immigrants of different nationalities.

They are also the target from Muslim aggression in the way of terrorist attacks pertaining to outright hate of White Christian Westerners.

Whites have a right to protect their homeland and expect co-operation especially from Arab Muslims the same nationality that are the source of terrorism. It should also be expected that Arab Muslims display a little common sense concerning travel especially to their homeland during times of high anxiety involving terrorist activity.

If arrested on suspicion of terrorist activity or searched while travelling so what as this could be expected in times of high terrorism alert or basically any time since terrorist attacks is an on going OCCUPATION with Arab Muslims terrorist.

My suggestion to Muslims is if they want to avoid the potential of being arrested has a suspect terrorist or being searched is to stay home, stay put in Canada and blame no one for this kind of predicament outside of your own Arab Muslims extremist who travel around the world killing people.

[Black Dog]

Pertaining to Canada and the U.S.A the majority White are the host to many immigrants of different nationalities.

They are also the target from Muslim aggression in the way of terrorist attacks pertaining to outright hate of White Christian Westerners.

Whites have a right to protect their homeland and expect co-operation especially from Arab Muslims the same nationality that are the source of terrorism. It should also be expected that Arab Muslims display a little common sense concerning travel especially to their homeland during times of high anxiety involving terrorist activity.

Uh...you know that Muslim is not a race, right? Richard Reid was white. John Allen Muhammad, the DC sniper, was black. The guys behind the London bombings were Pakistani. All of these fellas would slip right through your Arab catcher. And even if you did just check Arabs, Arab and Muslim aren't interchangeable. Not all Arabs are Muslims, and not all Muslims are Arabs. Hell: not all Arabs even look Arab. So your scheme, in addition to being racist (because it has the practical effect of tergetting people based on skin colour, something you acknowledge in your references to "whites"), it won't actually stop terrorism.

[August1991]

Is tehr eany evidenced broad racial profiling (one idiot, probably at the National Review, suggested a "Muslim-only" security line) works? What does a Muslim look like, anyway? Besides, I know if I was a terrorist and knew that swarthy, bearded males were going to be subject to extra scrutiny, I'd recruit folks who least fit the profile

That's a good point. So, the day 55 year old white women in stretch pants and big glasses commandeer airplanes and fly them into tall buildings, then I guess we'll have to change the profiles used for searches.

I think it's a fair bet that CSIS is now infiltrating mosques, not Jehovah Witness temples. And I would imagine that potential bomb plans are not being concocted in mosques much anymore.

IOW BD, this is a case where we must really rethink a cornerstone of the French revolution and the people's revolution of the 1960s: equality.

Young 22 year old Canadians expect to be carded when they buy booze. They don't ask for apologies or explanations.

You expect to be carded not arrested. There's a big difference.

And the stakes are higher too. An underage drunk is hardly a menace to society. A potential bomber on a plane is a different order of magnitude.

But Dobbin, let me try a leftist-style argument. Any young, 22 year old person does not deserve to be humiliated in public. And they certainly should not be treated any differently from any other person.

It is discrimination to pick a portion of the population merely on the basis of an arbitrary distinction and treat them differently. It is profoundly unfair.

From what I have read it would seem that this guy is definitely owed an apology from the airline. The security people and the police have both said the airline over reacted. The idea that a bigot with a few too many drinks in him can demand someone be taken off an aircraft and the airline will back him and not apologize when they have obviously made a mistake is disturbing. What will be next, flights get closed an hour earlier and all the passengers have a session of boarding lounge "The Missing Link" to decide who doesn't get to fly?

Wilber, I understand your point but I disagree, sort of.

Your line of reasoning means that we allow Imams into prisons to minister to Muslims held under terrorist charges. If we were to refuse such access, we would be accused of being - as you say - bigots. Heck, we allow Imams into Canada to preach values contrary to what many Canadians hold dear.

If those 19 guys who flew the planes into buildings in 2001 had been members of a political party, would we allow proponents of the same political movement free access to young people in our country? IOW, why do we treat a religious movement differently from a political movement?

How do you feel about such terms as the "Christian Republic of Iran" or the "Holy Iranian Republic"? It seems to me that religious movements get a wider berth than political movements.

[jdobbin]

And the stakes are higher too. An underage drunk is hardly a menace to society. A potential bomber on a plane is a different order of magnitude.

But Dobbin, let me try a leftist-style argument. Any young, 22 year old person does not deserve to be humiliated in public. And they certainly should not be treated any differently from any other person.

It is discrimination to pick a portion of the population merely on the basis of an arbitrary distinction and treat them differently. It is profoundly unfair.

Underage drunks kill more people in a year than terrorists.

Asking for indentification is a requirement for purchase of alcohol. It isn't humiliation. It's the law.

The airline and security overreacted. They removed three doctors from a flight who had already been cleared by security while letting the man who made the accusation to continue his flight. Nice.