Israel IS hated by many

[Argus]

Why would the world hate Israel?

There is no simple answer to this, for there are a number of reasons, few of them attributable to anything the Israelis have actually done.

Arabs.

From the first failed war to the most recent incursions into Lebanon, the Arab world has become fixated on Israel. Israel has been used as the blame for all their ills: the poverty, the wars, the tyranny, the fact the Arab world has fallen so far behind the West - just about everything is laid at Israel's doorstep. The propaganda against Israel has been _relentless_. For decades now, Arab children have been brought up on tails of the evil, blood-soaked Jews who steal land from Arabs, murder Arab men, women and children, torture, abuse, and humiliate Arabs on an ongoing basis. You can see it in children's textbooks, in college courses, in newspapers and magazines, television and radio, taken as routine. And the conspiracy loving Arabs attribute every manner of evil thing to those inscrutable Jews. The WTC was a Mossad plot, the Iran-Iraq war was arranged by Israel. The Americans invaded Iraq and Afghanistan on Israel's demand. Even the Hezbollah were tricked into attacking Israel to provide an excuse for Israel to attack Lebanon. This has all provided a convenient outlet for brutal Arab regimes, who, like other regimes before them, focus their unhappy people's anger at a foreign foe so as to excuse their own incompetence and corruption. And so, all Arab governments have stoked the fires of hate for decades to protect themselves. By now, most of the people in the Arab world have been raised on this, and know no other way to think of the Jews but as those evil creatures who are the enemy of all Muslims.

And as the Arab world goes, so goes the rest of the Muslim world. There is a sort of solidarity there which sees any attacks on Muslims as unjustified and outrageous, and it doesn't help that the Muslim world is, in a word, unsophisticated. Syria can slaughter 40,000 people in a week crushing the Muslim brotherhood, and raise no ones ire. The Iranians can march teenagers across minefields in a war which took a million lives, and that doesn't bother the Muslim world. Iraq can gas Kurdish villagers without an outcry, and Indian troops can engage in massive rape of Muslim villagers in Kashmir and be greeted by yawns. The Phillipine government can slaughter Muslims as they put down an uprising, but there is no reaction. The Russians can line up artillery wheel to wheel and blast away at Muslim cities in Chechnia but not provoke any great hysteria in the Muslim street. But whatever the Jews do causes instant outrage. Never mind that any Arab regime would have ruthlessly crushed something like the Intifada in weeks with mass executions and shootings. Never mind that the Palestinian people are more the victims of neighbouring Arab regimes than the Jews. Never mind that were it not for the Intifada their lives could probably be favourably compared to those of the average citizen of Yemen or Jordan or Egypt. They are dirt-poor Arabs, after all, and whether the Jews leave or not they will remain dirt-poor Arabs, in an arid land with no resources.

The Media and the Left

There has, for some years now, been a reflexive disdain among the lib-left for the military, for those who choose the military for a career, and, in addition, a particular distrust for higher ranking members of the military. Some of this comes from the media culture inspired by the likes of Vietnam and Watergate. Some of it comes from a culture which has never, in their lives, seen itself threatened by violence. Some of it comes from civil rights, anti-war, anti-nuke, anti-G8 protests in various places, where it was and remains the hard-hearted, cold-eyed, cops or militia or troops against the earnest young protesters wanting only what was best for everyone. A lot of the media sees the well-equipped Israeli army against comparatively rag-tag Palestinian protestors or terrorists and instinctively sides with the protestors - even when they're terrorists. There is a habit of shrugging off the terrorism, pointing out it is wrong - briefly, but then reflexively embracing the "causes" behind that terrorism. Especially on Palestine. After all, it sound so much like those civil rights protests of the sixties "Let my people go!"

Added to that, it makes good visuals. People might be dying more horribly in far greater numbers in far-flung corners of the world, but Israel is a comfortable western type nation in which to be a journalist, with five star hotels and restaurants, and all the conveniences of modern world. Who wants to ride a camel in Darfur, and maybe get shot? Who wants to wander around in the jungles of the Congo, or follow the dangerous Tamil Tigers in Sry Lanka, or visit the Muslim rebellions of Indonesia, the Phillipines or Malaysia where dirty little wars are being fought? Too uncomfortable, and far too dangerous. So we get images from Israel almost every night, often lovingly framed as cold, cruel, helmet clad soldiers shooting down rock throwing youths or smashing the homes of weeping women. Israeli dead and the terrorist attacks on them are barely mentioned, and then only when the death toll is particularly llarge, and then only after the fact, and cooly, detached, without much sympathy, and, of course, never deigning to "take sides" by actually calling the bombings "terrorism". And so western audiences, too, are treated to regular images and media denunciations of the evil Jews in Israel and how cruel they are to the poor Arabs, with little effort at context from a media which is generally only looking for some good visuals anyway. The average news item on the networks used to run to about 2 1/2 minutes, now it's about 30 seconds. There's no time for history, context, or complicated explanations of problems. Just time for the bloody visuals and the sad voice of the commentator, then it's on to something else. And so people who are largely ignorant stare and shake their heads and think how violent those Israelis are. Don't they know that enlightened people solve all these disputes through calm negotiations?

Money

It doesn't help, of course, that Arab oil money has encouraged this, that western governments, particularly European governments, have been in zealous pursuit of Arab oil money, oil investment, oil contracts, and multi-billion dollar weapons sales to Arab regimes for decades, greatly muting what should have been their natural support for Israel. Nor does it help that the UN was set up by the innocent yankees in the forties with the wide-eyed democratic belief in "one man, one vote" without ever an idea that it would one day be made up of 192 "nations", most of them undemocratic. Thus Liberia has the same vote as Canada, Kuwait the same vote as France. With 52 Muslim nations, and oil money being spread around, the UN became a propaganda playpen of anti-Jewish, anti-Israeli interests. Even western nations generally abstained on the long stream of condemnations against Isreal. Why vote against it when the resolutions don't mean anything anyway, and the combination of Muslim and paid-for third-world votes will pass them regardless? Better not to anger those wealthy Arabs. So again, we witness resolution after resolution, invariably one-sided, condemning Israel, never Arab nations, and this is broadcast around the world as though the UN actually had any moral wait as any kind of neutral body.

Anti-Semitism

Not everyone who participates in relentless attacks on Israel is an anti-semite, but all anti-semites hate Israel. There is still very strong anti-semitism throughout Europe, particularly among the elites and the most ignorant of the poor, and, with the rise of Muslims through immigration and heavy breeding, is growing in terms of violence and intolerence. Anti-semitism seems lower in the English world, perhaps because of the American tradition of religious tolerance, so widely broadcast here through their omnipresent cultural offerings. But it exists, nevertheless, invisibly, among the far right, and much more vocally, among the new left, who, not being terribly savvy, associate Jews with Israel, or at least, support for Israel, and associate Israel with evil-miltary-people-attacking-those poor-little-Arabs.

No doubt some will respond with a litany of past injustices and cruelties perpetrated by the Jewish state, but those are small potatoes compared to the brutalities we've seen elsewhere, and which the world largely shrugs off. And the context of being surrounded by a seething mass of enemies who never let a day get by without trying to pierce the wall around Israel and kill a Jew - any Jew - will be entirely absent. They will decry Israel's violence without mentioning its danger, and condemn them for not reaching a peaceful agreement through negotiations. Even though negotiations, as Peter Worthington points out today, only really work between democracies. Nations or organizations which cannot be held to any moral or ethical standard are unlikely to abide long by any agreement without a hard fist backing it up.

Is Israel a saintly, peaceful nation which does no wrong? Christ no. It's a nation like any other - given it's been at war for 50 years straight - which means it is broadly fallible, and has many fallible people. It's capable of avarice, unreasonableness, pig-headedness as the next - perhaps, in some ways, more, given its state of continuous war. On the other hand, it's leagues ahead of many, many others in terms of morality and the care and concern it has for its citizens and the world around it.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

A very good post, many things I agree with. For example;

And so western audiences, too, are treated to regular images and media denunciations of the evil Jews in Israel and how cruel they are to the poor Arabs, with little effort at context from a media which is generally only looking for some good visuals anyway. The average news item on the networks used to run to about 2 1/2 minutes, now it's about 30 seconds. There's no time for history, context, or complicated explanations of problems. Just time for the bloody visuals and the sad voice of the commentator, then it's on to something else.

The truth used to matter to the media, (actually, it used to be 'the point' of the news), but now, as it has become beholden to Mammon, sales matter most.

It doesn't help, of course, that Arab oil money has encouraged this, that western governments, particularly European governments, have been in zealous pursuit of Arab oil money, oil investment, oil contracts, and multi-billion dollar weapons sales to Arab regimes for decades,

Indeed,

However, some of your examples are downright silly, you should have done a bit of research...

Thus Liberia has the same vote as Canada, Kuwait the same vote as France.

Both Liberia and Kuwait are (or were for decades) very friendly with the US, receiving every support, though they were two terribly oppressive regimes. It just wasn't generally know that the US backed up Liberia to the hilt, to protect it's own economic interests there. How would it look if the US had said, "Look, Liberia(or Taylor), we back you 100%, but we don't want you in the UN because you are evil".

One other point for now,...

The Russians can line up artillery wheel to wheel and blast away at Muslim cities in Chechnia but not provoke any great hysteria in the Muslim street.

Actually, this, and the Chinese crushing of the Ouighers were high on Osama Bin Laden's list of grievances.

I wish you had spent a little time on the actual differences between Islam and Judaism, like how the Koran states that yes, the Jews were once the chosen people of God, and that they believe in the first few books of the Bible, but feel the Jews have 'turned away from god' by not accepting his latest 'prophet'.

Just so you know, the bible and the koran are really 'the root cause' of all the conflict we see. They are the ones that need to confronted, and if neccesary, destroyed.

[Michael Hardner]

Your opening question indicates that you wish to get into the minds of those who hate Israel. Yet your entire line of discussion takes a pro-Israel perspective. There are some legitimate grievances around this issue but you don't mention them.

So ... you ask 'why' is this the case, then answer in such a way so as to paint anybody who feels that way as a crazy idiot. Why would you make such a posting ?

[Argus]

However, some of your examples are downright silly, you should have done a bit of research...

Thus Liberia has the same vote as Canada, Kuwait the same vote as France.

Both Liberia and Kuwait are (or were for decades) very friendly with the US, receiving every support, though they were two terribly oppressive regimes. It just wasn't generally know that the US backed up Liberia to the hilt, to protect it's own economic interests there. How would it look if the US had said, "Look, Liberia(or Taylor), we back you 100%, but we don't want you in the UN because you are evil".

To be honest, I wasn't referencing the Israeli situation with those two choices. I just picked nations at random, oppressive regimes, tiny nations which have no real legitimacy, and pointed out that in the context of the Americans' pursuit of democracy in internationalism (at the time) this one nation, one vote thing really doesn't work very well. Granted, the permanent vetoes on the security council tends to balance that out somewhat, but in the general assembly, free reign is given to the sorts of people who would probably be in prison if they were walking the streets of a western nation.

One other point for now,...

The Russians can line up artillery wheel to wheel and blast away at Muslim cities in Chechnia but not provoke any great hysteria in the Muslim street.

Actually, this, and the Chinese crushing of the Ouighers were high on Osama Bin Laden's list of grievances.

Yes, and Canada is on his list, too. But the Arab street isn't terribly concerned with what happens in Chechnya. They might well be indignant at the treatment of Muslims there, the few occasions they're told of it, but they're not rioting about it or burning embassies - as they did over the Danish cartoons, for example. The Muslim world media is not filled with horrible pictures and videos of the plight of Chechins, and demands for action against Russia. For that matter, neither is the Western media, though by any reasonable assessment the Chechins plight is far worse than that of the Palestinians.

I wish you had spent a little time on the actual differences between Islam and Judaism, like how the Koran states that yes, the Jews were once the chosen people of God, and that they believe in the first few books of the Bible, but feel the Jews have 'turned away from god' by not accepting his latest 'prophet'.

Do you think the Muslims would have reacted differently if the people placed in that corner of the world had been Christians, or, say, Hindus?

[Leafless]

Argus

"Why the world hates Israel"

Could it be Jews are indifferent similar to Muslims- that is they keep to themselves and many of them don't freely intigrate with different mainstream societies of the world but continue to lead successful lives on the most part concerning their tight knitted relatively secret community with it's properous buisness ventures.

Arabs are Arabs and I suspect Muzlims resent the success of Jews especially with relations with America but fail to realize their Muzlim faith is no competion for organized democratic capitalistic countries.

[Argus]

Argus

"Why the world hates Israel"

Could it be Jews are indifferent similar to Muslims- that is they keep to themselves and many of them don't freely intigrate with different mainstream societies of the world but continue to lead successful lives on the most part concerning their tight knitted relatively secret community with it's properous buisness ventures.

Arabs are Arabs and I suspect Muzlims resent the success of Jews especially with relations with America but fail to realize their Muzlim faith is no competion for organized democratic capitalistic countries.

Originally, of course, their seperateness was a major cause of suspicion. Their economic success, in large measure due to the fact that unlike other religions they saw nothing wrong with loaning money for interest, engendered more suspicion and jealousy. Hypocritical Christian and Muslim rulers who borrowed money from them then turned around, often enough, and condemned Jews, instituting pograms in order to chase them out of their countries and thus save themselves the cost of repaying those loans.

But I don't think any of that's true anymore. The Jewish Ghettoes are gone. Jews live and work and play alongside Christians in Western society. Those who hate Jews, at least in the West, are usually simply ignorant, and often enough, hate Jews without reason, because their fathers and gradfathers did, or buy into ludicrous conspiracy theories as a way to explain their own life failures.

No, I think most of the anti-semitism in the West, aside from that coming from Muslim immigrants, is due to Israel, and the way the ignorant see the conflicts involving Israel, but really know nothing about the deeper causes or complexities.

[ponyboy]

.

[

I wish you had spent a little time on the actual differences between Islam and Judaism, like how the Koran states that yes, the Jews were once the chosen people of God, and that they believe in the first few books of the Bible, but feel the Jews have 'turned away from god' by not accepting his latest 'prophet'.

"Do you think the Muslims would have reacted differently if the people placed in that corner of the world had been Christians, or, say, Hindus?"

Isn't that the Arab point,didn't the Americans help PLACE the jewish people into at that time Palestine,because after the nazi atrocities the people said it was their homeland.Why didn't they place them in say, New York State.I often wonder if the American Indians declared the Black Hill their sacred grounds(which they are to some) and started pushing "white" Americans out,would the American government support them????I think not.I find what the israeli government is doing in Lebanon sickening.If the Mafia started bombing people,would Bush send fighter bombers and tanks into every little italy in America????

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Argus,

Their economic success, in large measure due to the fact that unlike other religions they saw nothing wrong with loaning money for interest, engendered more suspicion and jealousy.

I have heard the old story that the Jews have been disliked because they invented 'interest'. However, on an interesting note, a Jew is forbidden to charge another Jew interest on a loan. So, interest was only for 'non-Jews, (or Gentiles, or Goyim) and I expect some people might have been bitter.

[Rue]

Argus

"Why the world hates Israel"

Could it be Jews are indifferent similar to Muslims- that is they keep to themselves and many of them don't freely intigrate with different mainstream societies of the world but continue to lead successful lives on the most part concerning their tight knitted relatively secret community with it's properous buisness ventures.

Arabs are Arabs and I suspect Muzlims resent the success of Jews especially with relations with America but fail to realize their Muzlim faith is no competion for organized democratic capitalistic countries.

Your comments are blatant generalizations that are completely false and without basis and evidence precisely why people "hate" Israel....becaue in fact they feel when they discuss Israel, they can simply discuss Jews, and when they discuss Jews make sweeping stereotyipical assumptions based on completely false subjective assumptions.

For the record Jews are not secretive, do not keep to themselves, are no more successful then anyone else in business, and are not indifferent to the suffering of Muslims in the Middle East. These are your subjective

generalizations and I suggest you do some serious soul searching to try understand why it is so easy for you to utter such statements.

I also think it is pointless to engage you in a debate to explain and proof why each and everyone of your generalizations is false other then to say why not try make an effort to read up on the people you are stereotyping or better still make an effort to meet Jews and see how they actually live before you make such comments. I can only assume you do not interact with Jews or have had limited interactions with Jews.

[Argus]

I wish you had spent a little time on the actual differences between Islam and Judaism, like how the Koran states that yes, the Jews were once the chosen people of God, and that they believe in the first few books of the Bible, but feel the Jews have 'turned away from god' by not accepting his latest 'prophet'.

"Do you think the Muslims would have reacted differently if the people placed in that corner of the world had been Christians, or, say, Hindus?"

Isn't that the Arab point,didn't the Americans help PLACE the jewish people into at that time Palestine,because after the nazi atrocities the people said it was their homeland.

No. First, the Americans didn't place Jews anywhere. The Zionist movement for a Jewish homeland was well-underway, and many Jews had "returned" to Palestine (see ancient history) before the United Nations divided that area of Palestine which remained (after one large section was sliced away and given independance as Trans Jordan) between the Jews and the Muslims there. The Jews made up about 66% of the population in the area which was set aside for them. Obviously that number climbed as more Jews began to come to the new Israel.

Why didn't they place them in say, New York State.

Because that was not where the Jews saw their homeland as being, and because it wasn't 2/3rd Jewish.

I find what the israeli government is doing in Lebanon sickening.If the Mafia started bombing people,would Bush send fighter bombers and tanks into every little italy in America????

I imagine if the mafia started bombing people (nice racist comparison there, btw) the police would go in and arrest them. The problem in Lebanon was that the police were working with the bombers, and the government supported them - hell, they're part of the government.

[lost&outofcontrol]

The problem in Lebanon was that the police were working with the bombers, and the government supported them - hell, they're part of the government.

I'd love to see your source(s) on this.

[Charles Anthony]

I find what the israeli government is doing in Lebanon sickening.If the Mafia started bombing people,would Bush send fighter bombers and tanks into every little italy in America????

I imagine if the mafia started bombing people (nice racist comparison there, btw) the police would go in and arrest them.

You are missing his point.

His point is that the American authorities would be selective in their attack. They would go in and arrest the culprits. The would not create "collateral damage" to attack the Mafia.

By the way, I did not take his comparison as racist. Yes, he could have said "little asia" or "little latina" or "little eire" or "little whateverania" but the Italian mafia in America is real and we have a LOT of movies and novels based on its history. It is a good analogy to illustrate his point.

[ponyboy]

I wish you had spent a little time on the actual differences between Islam and Judaism, like how the Koran states that yes, the Jews were once the chosen people of God, and that they believe in the first few books of the Bible, but feel the Jews have 'turned away from god' by not accepting his latest 'prophet'.

"Do you think the Muslims would have reacted differently if the people placed in that corner of the world had been Christians, or, say, Hindus?"

Isn't that the Arab point,didn't the Americans help PLACE the jewish people into at that time Palestine,because after the nazi atrocities the people said it was their homeland.

No. First, the Americans didn't place Jews anywhere. The Zionist movement for a Jewish homeland was well-underway, and many Jews had "returned" to Palestine (see ancient history) before the United Nations divided that area of Palestine which remained (after one large section was sliced away and given independance as Trans Jordan) between the Jews and the Muslims there. The Jews made up about 66% of the population in the area which was set aside for them. Obviously that number climbed as more Jews began to come to the new Israel.

Why didn't they place them in say, New York State.

Because that was not where the Jews saw their homeland as being, and because it wasn't 2/3rd Jewish.

I find what the israeli government is doing in Lebanon sickening.If the Mafia started bombing people,would Bush send fighter bombers and tanks into every little italy in America????

I imagine if the mafia started bombing people (nice racist comparison there, btw) the police would go in and arrest them. The problem in Lebanon was that the police were working with the bombers, and the government supported them - hell, they're part of the government.

Gee!my Italian mother and her family didn't find it racist.

I certainly hope with your views on Israel you give the same respect and support to First Nations people.

My fears are you won't.Have a nice day.Also,Thanks Charles Anthony,an open mind is a wonderful thing.

[Argus]

I find what the israeli government is doing in Lebanon sickening.If the Mafia started bombing people,would Bush send fighter bombers and tanks into every little italy in America????

I imagine if the mafia started bombing people (nice racist comparison there, btw) the police would go in and arrest them.

You are missing his point.

His point is that the American authorities would be selective in their attack. They would go in and arrest the culprits. The would not create "collateral damage" to attack the Mafia.

If the mafia were so numerous, and had such heavy weapons that they would have to go in with an armoured division to make the arrest then there would indeed be considerable collateral damage.

But you're missing another point. And that a democratic state, in protecting its citizens, is obviously not going to take any action which would result in more deaths among that citizenry than was the case originally. Unless they're idiots. But a state may find it acceptable to have high casualties among another state's people when protecting its own people against attack from that other state. There is nothing odd ot immotsl about that.

By the way, I did not take his comparison as racist. Yes, he could have said "little asia" or "little latina" or "little eire" or "little whateverania" but the Italian mafia in America is real and we have a LOT of movies and novels based on its history. It is a good analogy to illustrate his point.

I don't think many Italians would agree.

[Charles Anthony]

If the mafia were so numerous, and had such heavy weapons that they would have to go in with an armoured division to make the arrest then there would indeed be considerable collateral damage.

I stand corrected.

I thought more about it and Waco, Texas came to mind. That is exactly what happened and innocent people were taken out.

But a state may find it acceptable to have high casualties among another state's people when protecting its own people against attack from that other state. There is nothing odd ot immotsl about that.

I agree that a state would do that but I would still see immorality in that action.

[Rue]

"Why don't they place them say in New York State".

Comments such as the above again manifest how when people talk about Israel, they find it easy to make disparaging sweeping statements against all Jews and state thinks they know are provocative and nonsensical but clearly manifest ignorance and hatred towards a people and perpetuate a myth that New York is of course full of Jews. New York is full of lots of people the last time I looked.

[Army Guy]

I stand corrected.

I thought more about it and Waco, Texas came to mind. That is exactly what happened and innocent people were taken out.

That depends on what you call innocent does it not, Correct me if i'm wrong but did Koresh not explain to all his people in that compound "what his future plans were going to be", did he not make it clear that he was going to "fight". Why have all those arms if not to use them ? you don't buy automatic wpns for hunting....

Did the good guys(ATF) not, call for those that wanted to , to walk away before the attack on the compound happen, i recall it was made serveral times.

Those people made there own decission to stay, and assist Koresh in any matter they could.

Or do we let these wing nuts run free , to do what ever they wish while the rest of us try and live in peace by following the rules and laws of the land.

I agree that a state would do that but I would still see immorality in that action.

What is immoral about defending yourself, defending your nation, defending your rights to exist and live in peace ?

Do you really think that if Israel gives back the sheeba farms and releases all it's hezbullah members from prisons that they will stop hostilities? That this will all fade into history.

[Charles Anthony]

I stand corrected.

I thought more about it and Waco, Texas came to mind. That is exactly what happened and innocent people were taken out.

That depends on what you call innocent does it not,

I classify the children inside the compound as innocent victims particularly when the compound was surrounded and the "criminals" could have been starved out instead of attacked. I will not comment on the all of the adult Branch Davidians.

Do you really think that if Israel gives back the sheeba farms and releases all it's hezbullah members from prisons that they will stop hostilities? That this will all fade into history.

No. I do not believe the hostilities would stop. I believe history would either continue or repeat itself.

[yoozer]

Argus, your personal bias is so apparent that it's painful to read your posts on Israel. Israel is becoming increasingly unpopular because their own conduct over the last couple decades has become increasingly unethical. That fact will stand no matter how many pages of irrational text you post. There was a time when Israel, with a great deal of help, toe'd the line against several countries simultaneously and the free world sided with them. That was when they fought for their existence. That time is long gone. Foreign aid over the years has placed Israel firmly at the top of the food chain. They could remove all traces of the adjacent countries like a giant eraser and, would do so, were it not for world opinion and a potential military backlash from entities which are not so easily bullied. The issue of "right to exist" now belongs to Palestine.

Israel's evolution has exceeded it's physical and moral boundaries. They're approaching 7 million people on a speck of land smaller than New Jersey. They have one of the highest population densities in the world. They need land bad. Real bad. Palestine needs a national unity and a physical boundary. Israel won't let them have it. It's much easier from a political standpoint to inhabit land that remains in question, than the land of an established nation. Almost 400,000 Israeli settlers in the west bank and gaza strip will tell you so.

I will eat my shorts if Israel withdraws its troops and allows an international force to keep the peace such that it doesn't come out of this with more land.

.........say.....doesn't it defeat the purpose of having a military buffer zone...if your civilians move to, and build on, the "buffer zone" (lol)

*rebuttal* "........uuuuuu.....hezbollah....rockets..terrorists..."

Oh, you mean the dudes who scoot around from cave to cave..that cant afford 2 way radios..or cant use em cuz you'll triangulate their a$$...that could be wiped from the earth by a single soldier who has a bit of patience, a steady hand and the latest snipe gear? Oh..hang on..if you wack em all there wont be any more rockets and then you'll have to stop acquiring real estate...ahh I see..woops..did I say that too loud?

*rebuttal* ".....!!!......SYRIA!!...HELPING..THEM..ROCKETS!!!!....."

Syria???...hmmm..syriaaaa......oh ok..thats the country that you annexed the southern tip of? occupied for a couple decades? that you built some towns and stripmalls n stuff in and renamed it to golan heights instead of southeastern Syria..where 20,000 of your peeps moved to?... They're helpin the hezbollah cave guys huh..I wonder why they'd do that?

Hey is this one a those new snipe guns that....HOLY CRAP THIS IS AMAZIN...LOOK I CAN SEE THAT HEZBILLY THROUGH A CROWD A PEEPS..HE'S LIKE 6 OR 7 KLIKS AWAY AND I CAN POP A CAP THRU HIS FREEKIN PUPIL N HIT NUTHIN BUT NET!!....here I'll take him out for ya..

"NOOO!! HE'S THE LAST ONE!!! *SNATCH*.....uuu..I mean....there are..*cough*...civilians..nn...uuuu..stuff"

Ya, you certainly dont wanna get tagged for a civilian fatality...one more will bump you over a grand..not good...like that burnt out hospital where you wacked 60 of em in one shot...talk about conserving ammo....huh..you dont know what Im talking about? sure ya do...the one where over half were kids?.....oh come on, look its right there on the map in your hand dude..see, the hospital and UN observer post are crossed out n shalomiville amusement park is written beside it.

*rebuttal* "...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...CARBOMB.....JUST YESTERDAY....BOMB..GUY...WOUNDED A FIELD MOUSE IN A BUSH.... CLOSE TO A ROAD...THAT GOES...PAST A TOWN...EVENTUALLY......"

ya...funny story about that guy..he wasnt even an extremist..just a regular guy......his kids were in the hospital.

[KrustyKidd]

Argus, your personal bias is so apparent that it's painful to read your posts on Israel. Israel is becoming increasingly unpopular because their own conduct over the last couple decades has become increasingly unethical.

I think Israel knows that. They can only be hated by Arabs so much before it really doesn't matter anymore and as for the rest of the world, when your people are getting kiled by terrorist rockets, who gives a shit what France or whomevber thinks? That point was reached somewhere in the seventies I think. Vying for friendship at the expense of your own people's lives is a joke.

I agree that a state would do that but I would still see immorality in that action.

The prime responsibility of a government is to protect the lives of it's citizens from outsdide forces. Failing that, the government is ripe for a colapse. hence the methods of Al Queda on weak repressive regimes - to divide the government and the peo-ple, to display to the people the ineffectualness of their government.

To me, my family's life is worth more than yours, my daughter's life more valuable than your wife's and so on. There is nothing irresponsible about taking action to protect your people in whatever way is needed, in fact, it would be criminal NOT to take whatever action necessary and beyond to make 100% sure your people were safe. Otherwise, you don't deserve to be in government. As we have seen, land returned is not taken as a peace initiative but rather to place new firing positions. Rockets fired from populated areas when they could be done from more remote areas is irresponsible on the part of Hezbolla when they know the reaction Isreal takes. in short, they are the ones responsible for the collateral damage.

[cybercoma]

Argus, your personal bias is so apparent that it's painful to read your posts on Israel. Israel is becoming increasingly unpopular because their own conduct over the last couple decades has become increasingly unethical. That fact will stand no matter how many pages of irrational text you post. There was a time when Israel, with a great deal of help, toe'd the line against several countries simultaneously and the free world sided with them. That was when they fought for their existence. That time is long gone. Foreign aid over the years has placed Israel firmly at the top of the food chain. They could remove all traces of the adjacent countries like a giant eraser and, would do so, were it not for world opinion and a potential military backlash from entities which are not so easily bullied. The issue of "right to exist" now belongs to Palestine.

Israel's evolution has exceeded it's physical and moral boundaries. They're approaching 7 million people on a speck of land smaller than New Jersey. They have one of the highest population densities in the world. They need land bad. Real bad. Palestine needs a national unity and a physical boundary. Israel won't let them have it. It's much easier from a political standpoint to inhabit land that remains in question, than the land of an established nation. Almost 400,000 Israeli settlers in the west bank and gaza strip will tell you so.

I will eat my shorts if Israel withdraws its troops and allows an international force to keep the peace such that it doesn't come out of this with more land.

.........say.....doesn't it defeat the purpose of having a military buffer zone...if your civilians move to, and build on, the "buffer zone" (lol)

*rebuttal* "........uuuuuu.....hezbollah....rockets..terrorists..."

Oh, you mean the dudes who scoot around from cave to cave..that cant afford 2 way radios..or cant use em cuz you'll triangulate their a$$...that could be wiped from the earth by a single soldier who has a bit of patience, a steady hand and the latest snipe gear? Oh..hang on..if you wack em all there wont be any more rockets and then you'll have to stop acquiring real estate...ahh I see..woops..did I say that too loud?

*rebuttal* ".....!!!......SYRIA!!...HELPING..THEM..ROCKETS!!!!....."

Syria???...hmmm..syriaaaa......oh ok..thats the country that you annexed the southern tip of? occupied for a couple decades? that you built some towns and stripmalls n stuff in and renamed it to golan heights instead of southeastern Syria..where 20,000 of your peeps moved to?... They're helpin the hezbollah cave guys huh..I wonder why they'd do that?

Hey is this one a those new snipe guns that....HOLY CRAP THIS IS AMAZIN...LOOK I CAN SEE THAT HEZBILLY THROUGH A CROWD A PEEPS..HE'S LIKE 6 OR 7 KLIKS AWAY AND I CAN POP A CAP THRU HIS FREEKIN PUPIL N HIT NUTHIN BUT NET!!....here I'll take him out for ya..

"NOOO!! HE'S THE LAST ONE!!! *SNATCH*.....uuu..I mean....there are..*cough*...civilians..nn...uuuu..stuff"

Ya, you certainly dont wanna get tagged for a civilian fatality...one more will bump you over a grand..not good...like that burnt out hospital where you wacked 60 of em in one shot...talk about conserving ammo....huh..you dont know what Im talking about? sure ya do...the one where over half were kids?.....oh come on, look its right there on the map in your hand dude..see, the hospital and UN observer post are crossed out n shalomiville amusement park is written beside it.

*rebuttal* "...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...CARBOMB.....JUST YESTERDAY....BOMB..GUY...WOUNDED A FIELD MOUSE IN A BUSH.... CLOSE TO A ROAD...THAT GOES...PAST A TOWN...EVENTUALLY......"

ya...funny story about that guy..he wasnt even an extremist..just a regular guy......his kids were in the hospital.

So let me get this straight, you think Israel should sit back and do nothing while Hezbollah fires rockets at their civilians and kidnaps their soldiers? You think Hezbollah murdering and torturing Israelis is an innocent bystander?

[Rue]

Argus, your personal bias is so apparent that it's painful to read your posts on Israel. Israel is becoming increasingly unpopular because their own conduct over the last couple decades has become increasingly unethical. That fact will stand no matter how many pages of irrational text you post. There was a time when Israel, with a great deal of help, toe'd the line against several countries simultaneously and the free world sided with them. That was when they fought for their existence. That time is long gone. Foreign aid over the years has placed Israel firmly at the top of the food chain. They could remove all traces of the adjacent countries like a giant eraser and, would do so, were it not for world opinion and a potential military backlash from entities which are not so easily bullied. The issue of "right to exist" now belongs to Palestine.

Israel's evolution has exceeded it's physical and moral boundaries. They're approaching 7 million people on a speck of land smaller than New Jersey. They have one of the highest population densities in the world. They need land bad. Real bad. Palestine needs a national unity and a physical boundary. Israel won't let them have it. It's much easier from a political standpoint to inhabit land that remains in question, than the land of an established nation. Almost 400,000 Israeli settlers in the west bank and gaza strip will tell you so.

I will eat my shorts if Israel withdraws its troops and allows an international force to keep the peace such that it doesn't come out of this with more land.

.........say.....doesn't it defeat the purpose of having a military buffer zone...if your civilians move to, and build on, the "buffer zone" (lol)

*rebuttal* "........uuuuuu.....hezbollah....rockets..terrorists..."

Oh, you mean the dudes who scoot around from cave to cave..that cant afford 2 way radios..or cant use em cuz you'll triangulate their a$$...that could be wiped from the earth by a single soldier who has a bit of patience, a steady hand and the latest snipe gear? Oh..hang on..if you wack em all there wont be any more rockets and then you'll have to stop acquiring real estate...ahh I see..woops..did I say that too loud?

*rebuttal* ".....!!!......SYRIA!!...HELPING..THEM..ROCKETS!!!!....."

Syria???...hmmm..syriaaaa......oh ok..thats the country that you annexed the southern tip of? occupied for a couple decades? that you built some towns and stripmalls n stuff in and renamed it to golan heights instead of southeastern Syria..where 20,000 of your peeps moved to?... They're helpin the hezbollah cave guys huh..I wonder why they'd do that?

Hey is this one a those new snipe guns that....HOLY CRAP THIS IS AMAZIN...LOOK I CAN SEE THAT HEZBILLY THROUGH A CROWD A PEEPS..HE'S LIKE 6 OR 7 KLIKS AWAY AND I CAN POP A CAP THRU HIS FREEKIN PUPIL N HIT NUTHIN BUT NET!!....here I'll take him out for ya..

"NOOO!! HE'S THE LAST ONE!!! *SNATCH*.....uuu..I mean....there are..*cough*...civilians..nn...uuuu..stuff"

Ya, you certainly dont wanna get tagged for a civilian fatality...one more will bump you over a grand..not good...like that burnt out hospital where you wacked 60 of em in one shot...talk about conserving ammo....huh..you dont know what Im talking about? sure ya do...the one where over half were kids?.....oh come on, look its right there on the map in your hand dude..see, the hospital and UN observer post are crossed out n shalomiville amusement park is written beside it.

*rebuttal* "...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...CARBOMB.....JUST YESTERDAY....BOMB..GUY...WOUNDED A FIELD MOUSE IN A BUSH.... CLOSE TO A ROAD...THAT GOES...PAST A TOWN...EVENTUALLY......"

ya...funny story about that guy..he wasnt even an extremist..just a regular guy......his kids were in the hospital.

Why is it you present only one side of the equation. If you want to discuss this conflict honestly you must also refer to the fact that Hezbollah kills innocent civilians and that the reason the civilians are killed is because Hezbollah has made the moral decision to use civilians as shields.

It is in effect wrong to argue it is immoral for Israel todefend itself. That is not logical. A country and its civilians can morally defend themselves from imminent peril. What you are trying to argue defectively is that when Israel defends itself it should not kill civilians. No it should not. No one would argue killing civilians is desireable. What you have completely ignored which is usually the case when people like you write in and present it as a one way moral dilemma is that Israel did not place the civilians in harm's way, Hezbollah did and so if we are to engage in proper philosophical context, the moral culpability lies on Hezbollah not Israel.

Now the moment you can show how Israel can defend itself without killing civilians who Hezbollah hides behind please let us all know. In your brilliant analysis you seem to suggest that Israel should do nothing.

[Wilber]

Israel's evolution has exceeded it's physical and moral boundaries. They're approaching 7 million people on a speck of land smaller than New Jersey. They have one of the highest population densities in the world. They need land bad. Real bad. Palestine needs a national unity and a physical boundary. Israel won't let them have it. It's much easier from a political standpoint to inhabit land that remains in question, than the land of an established nation. Almost 400,000 Israeli settlers in the west bank and gaza strip will tell you so.

I will eat my shorts if Israel withdraws its troops and allows an international force to keep the peace such that it doesn't come out of this with more land.

Israel has left Lebanon once before. It has made peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, both of which have included the return of land. These were real peace treaties that recognized Israel's right to exist and have been honoured by both sides. There have been no violations by any side or attacks made by terrorist organizations based in those countries. That is the only kind of peace Israel would be willing to trade for territory. Why would they give a strategic area like the Golan Heights back to Syria until that country renounces its intention to see Israel destroyed and is willing to make a real peace.

Didn't Israel forcibly remove its settlers from Gaza in 2005? The West Bank is a tougher issue for Israel if they want a lasting peace but who possesses it has been the cause of friction in the area for several thousand years. I'm not expecting that to change in my lifetime.

[Black Dog]

. First, the Americans didn't place Jews anywhere. The Zionist movement for a Jewish homeland was well-underway, and many Jews had "returned" to Palestine (see ancient history) before the United Nations divided that area of Palestine which remained (after one large section was sliced away and given independance as Trans Jordan) between the Jews and the Muslims there. The Jews made up about 66% of the population in the area which was set aside for them. Obviously that number climbed as more Jews began to come to the new Israel.

First: Jews made up 55 per cent of the population of the Jewish areas at the time of partition, not 66 per cent. You neglect to mention that Jews made up just 33 per cent of the population of the mandate in 1947, yet were allotted 57 per cent of the territory.

link

[GostHacked]

. First, the Americans didn't place Jews anywhere. The Zionist movement for a Jewish homeland was well-underway, and many Jews had "returned" to Palestine (see ancient history) before the United Nations divided that area of Palestine which remained (after one large section was sliced away and given independance as Trans Jordan) between the Jews and the Muslims there. The Jews made up about 66% of the population in the area which was set aside for them. Obviously that number climbed as more Jews began to come to the new Israel.

First: Jews made up 55 per cent of the population of the Jewish areas at the time of partition, not 66 per cent. You neglect to mention that Jews made up just 33 per cent of the population of the mandate in 1947, yet were allotted 57 per cent of the territory.

link

Keep throwin out those numbers BD. Facts are facts it seems.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videopla..._060806,00.html

Check out Mr Galloway. I can see why news reporters fear him. This guy just beats up and down on the reporter. To make her voice heard, the studio lowers his volume and raises her so she speaks over him. This man rocks.

He explains why there is so much hate in the area.

(ok paraphrased) You need to have a memory that goes back mroe than 4 weeks