Options for Israel

[WillyNilly]

First, it is against the forum rules to post copyrighted material from others

News stories are not copyrighted for your information Argus and it is not a copyright violation to quote from an article when it isnt copied verbatim - furthermore I posted attributing Buchanans article to Buchanan.

I know you run this forum (apparently), but I suggest you pay closer attention to posts and not spend all your energy insulting and baiting posters who come here.

I find it interesting you chose to ban me. I notice that you do not ban those who preoffer a similar viewpoint to yours, even if their comments border on racism

I have been reading through the forum and it is very apparent that Argus can get away with doing whatever he likes. Every new poster here is immediately attacked by him and threatened and insulted.

Does anyone know of a good political forum I can move to? One where people like Kindred arent called whores and people like idobbin I think arent called pedophiles, and others filthy goat herders and Jew haters because they dont support the genocide of the Lebanese people?

It is impossible to carry on an intelligent discussion when someone like Argus is insulting and ranting at people and has no intellectual contribution to add to the discussion.

Machinations I am assuming you have posted, I am with you, on this, it wont be long before Black Dog is gone, Figleaf, FTA and others who have made intelligent, well thought out, informative posts.

Anyways, Greg & Co. - I have no futher interest in these boards. You are clearly not interested in any real discussion - and you tolerate so-called 'insults' by people who have views similar to your own.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear BlackDog,

Wha...? MTHEL had never been used in operations.

As far as we know. In the field, anyway, though there was some suggestion in the Documentary "The Panama Deception" that the US tested laser weaponry there. However, what I mean to say is that MTHEL was successfully tested in 2002.

[Figleaf]

In the short term, Israel needs to continue to make it clear to the Palestinians that life is going to be hell for them as long as they continue to attack Israel. I think, frankly, they're being too gentle. They should destroy all electricity production in Gaza, smash their roads, destroy irrigation systems, sewers, etc.

War crimes all.

Tough

...

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

Amazing ... are you in general full support of crimes against humanity? Or is it just crimes against people you consider sub-human?

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

I'll post this MTHEL stuff again, the links are worth reading...from...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/wor...ets.htm#khaibar

In 1995 and 1996, during a period of time when Israel was enduring Katyusha rocket attacks from the Hezbollah across its northern borders, the US offered to Israel -- and they accepted -- the Tactical High-Energy Laser system, which they have been working on. It is a system that's designed specifically to deal with Katyusha rocket attacks from across the border. It is a system that Israel and the United States have worked on, and that is one system that they should be able to use if they experience Katyusha rocket attacks.

and...from...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/mthel.htm

In tests during late 2002, the Army used the high-energy laser to heat artillery shells, which exploded in flight. In earlier tests, the laser shot down 25 Katyushas, both singly and in salvos. Artillery shells generate far less heat than rockets do and are more difficult to track. Also, because rockets are pressurized, they are easier to blow up than shells.

I believe NorthropGrumann is in charge of development, and additional info is available at their site.

[Black Dog]

Which is it, guys? Is the Jewish lobby in total control of the US or is Israel a mere pawn of American imperialism? Want to form a huddle or something and get back to us on that?

Neither. They are cogs in the same machine. Better?

[Greg]

I find it interesting you chose to ban me. I notice that you do not ban those who preoffer a similar viewpoint to yours, even if their comments border on racism.

The hole you've dug for yourself just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

In order to show you how asinine your own policy is, I'll go through your archives and start pulling all the instances of Argus being insulting. Methinks he won't be banned, but what do I know?

No you won't - you're banned from this site.

Anyways, Greg & Co. - I have no futher interest in these boards. You are clearly not interested in any real discussion - and you tolerate so-called 'insults' by people who have views similar to your own.

There are many members who share different viewpoints that co-exist in these forums.

In short, censorship does'nt work, you fucking ninnies. Anyone who thinks Argus is genuinely 'offended' by being called a shoddy excuse for a human being - please raise your hand!

Brilliant! I love it when people complain about insults and then turn around and use insults to prove their point. It just goes to show I'm making the right decision by banning you.

I've never removed anyone from these forums due to their beliefs, anyone who has spent some time in these forums can confirm that. When I do remove someone, the reasons are often obvious to anyone that has been involved in the discussions.

Argus reported me to try and remove me from the boards, in which he was 'successful' - if only through the complicity of the admins. To those with such credibility, I salute you.

Argus is respecting my original warning (and request) to report any abuse and to not engage in insults.

For those who have been trying to reason with Argus and his crew of ideologues, don't bother. They have no interest in the truth - only being 'right'. The intellectual dishonesty astounds me.

I'm just interested in civilized discussion, there is no such thing as being "interested in the truth."

[jdobbin]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...st-tuesday.html

Israel is rushing in more troops. It certainly looks like are getting deeper and deeper into Lebanon. I just don't know if they will be able to get out and actually have changed things there.

[Black Dog]

Senior Israeli officials said the troops will go as far as the Litani River, nearly 30 kilometres from the Israeli border. The purpose is to clear out Hezbollah fighters and hold the territory until a multinational force is deployed there.

And if there is no multinational force? I mean, that's not some small, niggling detail we're talking about: it's the crux of the whole plan. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

[Argus]

Senior Israeli officials said the troops will go as far as the Litani River, nearly 30 kilometres from the Israeli border. The purpose is to clear out Hezbollah fighters and hold the territory until a multinational force is deployed there.

And if there is no multinational force? I mean, that's not some small, niggling detail we're talking about: it's the crux of the whole plan. Talk about putting the cart before the horse.

It's quite possible this has already all been decided and signed off by a variety of world leaders behind the scenes. The intl force I have heard of would be mainly made up of Turkey, Egypt, with possibly some French participation, and a few others - people less likely to attract suicide bombings, in other words. Because of the situation, this can be explained to Muslim populations as "saving" the Lebanese from the evil Israelis, so there isn't likely to be a lot of outrage over it.

[jdobbin]

It's quite possible this has already all been decided and signed off by a variety of world leaders behind the scenes. The intl force I have heard of would be mainly made up of Turkey, Egypt, with possibly some French participation, and a few others - people less likely to attract suicide bombings, in other words. Because of the situation, this can be explained to Muslim populations as "saving" the Lebanese from the evil Israelis, so there isn't likely to be a lot of outrage over it.

All I can say is thank heaven that Canada isn't going to be sending troops. Whoever ends up going there is going to subjected to suicide bombers if hey even attempt to do anything to stop Hezbollah from moving back into the area.

Ick, what a mess.

[Black Dog]

It's quite possible this has already all been decided and signed off by a variety of world leaders behind the scenes. The intl force I have heard of would be mainly made up of Turkey, Egypt, with possibly some French participation, and a few others - people less likely to attract suicide bombings, in other words. Because of the situation, this can be explained to Muslim populations as "saving" the Lebanese from the evil Israelis, so there isn't likely to be a lot of outrage over it.

Sounds far-fetched. Egypt? Too much risk of domestic blowback for Murabek. Turkey? Maybe (might be good practcie if they ever decide to go into Kurdistan.) France? See: Paris riots. Regardless I can't think of any force that could occupy the region and not face the prospect of a sustained guerrilla campaign (guerilla warfare being much more Hizbullah's forte than cross-border terrorism).

[Argus]

It's quite possible this has already all been decided and signed off by a variety of world leaders behind the scenes. The intl force I have heard of would be mainly made up of Turkey, Egypt, with possibly some French participation, and a few others - people less likely to attract suicide bombings, in other words. Because of the situation, this can be explained to Muslim populations as "saving" the Lebanese from the evil Israelis, so there isn't likely to be a lot of outrage over it.

Sounds far-fetched. Egypt? Too much risk of domestic blowback for Murabek. Turkey? Maybe (might be good practcie if they ever decide to go into Kurdistan.) France? See: Paris riots. Regardless I can't think of any force that could occupy the region and not face the prospect of a sustained guerrilla campaign (guerilla warfare being much more Hizbullah's forte than cross-border terrorism).

From some of the things I've read there is a lot of anger in the Muslim world at the way Hezbollah attacked Israel - not out of any sympathy for Israel, of course, but because of how they've drawn the bear down on the people of Lebanon. People sympathise with the Lebanese civilians, and this can easily be presented as a way to stop the evil Israelis from rampaging around in southern Lebanon while protecting the innocent. I don't think there would be a lot of blowback against Mubarek or Sezer for that, and I don't think either is nearly as sensitive to a few score casualties as western nations are. Both have been operating a rather vicious campaign against insurgents for decades without any noticeable care about casualties. France is something else again, but they're sympathetic to the Arabs, so who knows. Hey, if the Europeans are so adamant that Israel stop then they'll have to put up or shut up because Israel isn't going to stop as long as rockets are going across its border.

[Figleaf]

Brilliant! A re-occupation of southern Lebanon! Now there is a step forward. Why not press on to Syria?

More and more it appears that Olmert is a poor strategist and in deep over his head.

As for an international force, I have my doubts it will come to pass. No Muslim state can afford to be seen as actively opposing Hezbollah, and no force that does not oppose Hezbollah will be of interest to Israel. No Europeans should be crazy enough to put themselves into 'this shit' (to use the Bush terminology) and the US and Britain have both declined to participate.

[jdobbin]

Brilliant! A re-occupation of southern Lebanon! Now there is a step forward. Why not press on to Syria?

Israel lands troops near Syria.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14128276/

[Black Dog]

From some of the things I've read there is a lot of anger in the Muslim world at the way Hezbollah attacked Israel - not out of any sympathy for Israel, of course, but because of how they've drawn the bear down on the people of Lebanon. People sympathise with the Lebanese civilians, and this can easily be presented as a way to stop the evil Israelis from rampaging around in southern Lebanon while protecting the innocent.

Like I said before, the problem with such things is that the message intended is seldom the one recieved. Perhaps a non-western force would give the impression you suggest. We'll see.

[Figleaf]

Brilliant! A re-occupation of southern Lebanon! Now there is a step forward. Why not press on to Syria?

Israel lands troops near Syria.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14128276/

MADNESS! Next I suppose they'll 'pre-emptively' bomb the Egyptian airforce again.

[jdobbin]

MADNESS! Next I suppose they'll 'pre-emptively' bomb the Egyptian airforce again.

Thankfully, the Egyptians are keep a lpw profile. They're still pissed that terrorists are using their country as a base to attack foreigners.

[GostHacked]

Brilliant! A re-occupation of southern Lebanon! Now there is a step forward. Why not press on to Syria?

Israel lands troops near Syria.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14128276/

Syria also called up troops and told them to be on alert. But there has been little mention of it on the news. I saw the blurb on CNN.com for a brief moment, then the artlicle dissapeared completely.

[Rue]

Brilliant! A re-occupation of southern Lebanon! Now there is a step forward. Why not press on to Syria?

Israel lands troops near Syria.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14128276/

MADNESS! Next I suppose they'll 'pre-emptively' bomb the Egyptian airforce again.

No they will simply all commit mass suicide. I mean why defend themselves they don't serve to live.

[Rue]

Israel has not landed any troops near Syria. Their ground movement has been limited to the South. The only thing that happened up North is an unmanned drone, blew up three trucks full of weapons crossing from Syria into Lebanon.

As for the Syrian Army unlike Hezbollah who are fundamentalists who truly believe in what they are doing Syria's army with the exception of one elite unit used to protect the President, is a set of poorly equipped, poorly trained soldiers. Syria has no intention of fighting a conventional war. In case you have not noticed Syria and Iran do all their talking through proxy terrorist groups. That is precisely what cowards do.

Syria will sit this out as they always do and let others fight their battle. The average Syrian is Sunni. The people in charge of Syria including Bashir Assad are Alawite a minority sect. He can't lead his army because there is just as much a chance of them turning on Assad as fighting for him. Understanf this about Syria, they spend most of their time hunting and killing suspected Sunni Muslims and the Muslim Brotherhood.Israel is a side attraction to distract people from the collapse of their economy, their 90% unemployment rate, and their spying and torturing of their fellow citizens.

[GostHacked]

Israel has not landed any troops near Syria. Their ground movement has been limited to the South.

Wrong again Rue.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,206514,00.html

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/01/...main/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5236834.stm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/01/...in1853364.shtml

The Bekaa Valley is not in the south. There are troops in the area. Israel has widened their attack strategy. When will you say that enough is enough? When Hezbollah is gone? At the same time devestating Lebanon? I cannot see this working.

Lebanon is getting pounded from the ground/air from the south and the navy is lobbing stuff from the west.

[Army Guy]

Charles Anthony:

After reading the article again, it is more than obvious that the color "obvious allusion to Hezbollah tactics" are one-sided conclusions that are Maj.-Gen. MacKensie's view only and are not the only interpretation of the Isreali attacks. There is nothing obvious about concluding Hezbollah tactics.

Lewis MacKenzie was not there at the UN outpost.

Actually those comments made by Retired Maj Gen Lewis MacKenzie were taken from a E-mail that the Maj Hess-von Kruedener ( the CDN that was killed) Had wrote to the CBC, whom was on the ground in fact he had been on the ground for over 9 months , so he may have known what he was talking about. The fact that he mentions that the UN outpost was being targeted out of tactical nessicity means that there had to have been hezbullah around that postion. KEEP IN MIND this was for the press and and he could not come out and state the Hezbullah postions. As that would not be keeping with the neutrality that being a UN observer requires.

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The whole former Yougoslavia had an arms embargo and everybody knows that.

It does not take a tactical genius to figure out that an arms embargo leaves the unarmed to be victims of the armed. Everybody knows that.

The more i read your post the more i am convinced that you are talking out your ass. The entire nation was a huge cold war wpns storage facility. The was and still is more than enough wpns and munitions in that country to have 10 wars. Yes the serbs grab a majority of that but all sides had enough equipment and arms to kill each other many times over.

What everybody does not know is that the Serbs controlled the Yougoslavian government and the military.

Yes, the Serbs controlled a vast amount of the military equipment, but you failed how did the crotian and muslim forces arm themselfs. thru the same military warehouse as the serbs.

The UN ran away when they were supposed to be protecting unarmed civilians in UN safe havens. Everybody knows that.

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The UN did not run away, that BN at srcbrenica was full of Dutch logistical pers not soldiers. they did what they could or what they were capable of. It's easy after many years to put the blame on someone. but one has to remember these troops were surrounded by thousands of cold blooded serbs whom were more than willing to kill everyone including the UN pers.

The dutch vidio everything that happened at the camp, and those logistical troops were ready to fight in fact alot of them were disarmed by thier own NCO's and officers, so not to give the serbs an excuse to slaughter them all.

Which they proved by taking hundreds of UN pers hostage and practice that all sides caught on to.

And to top it all off the UN "rules of egagement" did not allow UN per to directly confront anyone but just to observe.

The UN left unarmed civilians in Srebrenica when Serbs over-ran the town. Everybody knows the UN ran away and left them to be slaughtered.

Again they did not run away, and did what they could for those civilians "funny you don't mention those that they did mange to save, nor do you mention the Medak pocket where Canadian troops directly engage croat forces engaged in enthic cleansing. But then again that would not make your case of the UN being cowards, whose soldiers from many different countrys operating under retarded UN ROE's, and regulations ,did what they could. It's also funny that those same countrys took part in NATO lead operations that did produce results and finally peace, why because the could engage the bad guys unlike the UN rules. The only thing all sides respect was the use of force and NATO had all the big toys.

I did. Right after he comes back from Bosnia, he went a speaking tour by Serbs. He said he did not know who paid him. That does not make him a reliable and unbiased source to me. Sorry, I do not trust his word.

Why because he went on tour and explained to people that the serbs were not the only group to commit war crimes. That he went on record and stated the truth. That makes him unbiased, untrustworthy.

You crack me up, read the link. and show me exactly where you get all this.

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Let me get this straight: Morillon (a colleague of his) actually tries to do something on behalf of the UN (against "his UN masters"????) to protect the civilians and MacKenzie sees that as the source of the problem. The rest of his article goes on to explain how the UN did not have the resources

Again you talking half truths bending facts to suit your argument, The UN was drastically under manned ,operating under retarded ROE, and regulations, that tied both hands of every sodier over there ...when your under manned over worked you don't go and spread your forces even thinner in a active combat zone full of drunken Yugoslavians with automatic wpns.So yes there was a problem was there not.

Correct. I am talking out of my ass and the asses of people who physically were in Bosnia trying to help family. They told me what they saw on the other side of the fence

Like i said i completed 3 tours with the Canadian Military in Bosina, 1 with the UN and 2 with NATO and saw war crimes committed by all the groups involved. in fact i've complete a tour in Afgan as well and have yet to have seen the brutality i seen in bosina. So beware where you piont your finger as there is usally one pionting right back at you.

Those are dramatic words. You tell me what he did to "serve his country".

He commanded an entire UN contingent of thousands of troops in a war torn country, that was ripping itself apart, and could have been alot worse if not for his direct intervention. He did all this with a price on his head, Backed up by a toothless organization that had no more control over the situation than you or i. He did this because he was a soldier and his country asked him for his services.

So yes they are dramactic words. Have you served your country ? Has your country asked you for your services. SO why are you judging him when you are providing no facts to back your argument. In the military we call that talking out your ass. you can call it slander.

I think questioning a public figure (particularly one whose decisions and actions affected the lives of unarmed civilians) who talks publicly is fair game. Even more so when my taxes go to fund it.

How is your tax dollars funding Gen Mackenzie, just a few posts ago it was funded by the serbs so which is it ?

[Charles Anthony]

Actually those comments made by Retired Maj Gen Lewis MacKenzie were taken from a E-mail that the Maj Hess-von Kruedener ( the CDN that was killed) Had wrote to the CBC, whom was on the ground in fact he had been on the ground for over 9 months , so he may have known what he was talking about.

Yes. That is why I said that I would rather read the original email and not MacKenzie's interpretation.

I understand that the general public can not be privy to all of the information and thus it is easier for the public to be duped.

The arms embargo is the clincher.

[jdobbin]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...mideast-un.html

France and the U.S. draft Israel/Hezbollah resolution.

It doesn't appear to end the fighting anytime soon though.

[jdobbin]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14196226/

The fighting continues while the U.N. resolutions struggles through till next week. Even then, it is said that it could take weeks for any foce to be deployed.

At any point the whole thing could fall off the rails.

Meanwhile, the casualties of Israel's military is the equivalent of what 1000 troops a day would be to the U.S. according to This Week on ABC.