Options for Israel

[jdobbin]

Some news organizations are starting to report again that Israel might be looking at letting an International Force into Southern Lebanon comprised of Europeans and Canadians. It was mentioned earlier this morning on CNN and now there seems to be some more information coming out of Israel itself.

Anyone else getting word on this?

[Canuck E Stan]

Anyone else getting word on this?

We'll let you update us, since you seem to have the most time on your hands.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Where do I begin with this......

In 911 the US broadcast that the terrorists came straight from Canada, since then they have repeatedly said Canada harbours terrorists.

Lets take this from the begining of your statement. It is true that the Americans originally thought that terrorists enter their country through Canada. They were at least partially right, do you recall the ding bat that threatened to blow up something in Seattle? So SOME terrorists have come across the border from Canada. He was caught thank God, and a tragic event avoided. We have thousands of miles of border with the USA and it is very easy to cross it in many places.

Would we sit idle and let them flatten Toronto and Montreal and Vancouver killing hundreds of civilians or would our Armed Forces, as pathetic as they are, get involved and try to stop an invasion into our country? I doubt that we would feel or say the US was justified

Why would the Americans attack us? Are you suggesting that we go and kidnap a couple of Americans and

start launching missiles into their cities without any means of target control to find out how they would react? Get a freaking grip! What are you a closet terrorist yourself? As to whether or not a nation would rise to defend its citizens in case of invasion doesn't even require a response. Of course it would. On the other hand I think they would feel justified in attacking our cities if we attacked theirs don't you think? Just as I would feel justified defending my nation if attacked.

The Lebanese Armed Forces have not been engaged, have not fired a shot while Israel flattens their country.

Thats right Lebanese forces have not been engaged in battle with Israel, because Israel has no bone to pick with them. I am sure that if they did have a problem with the Lebanese Army it would have targeted them outright and early in this desperate situation.

This is not how you fight a guerilla force like the Hezbulloh - countless innocent civilians are being killed and injured, infrastructure blown up. The Lebanese Government didnt support Hazbulloh .....

There is no way to attack a guerilla force entrenched within a civilian population without causing collateral damage. These cowards hide behind their own women and children to use them as shields to protect their sorry asses. Its not bad enough that they hide in residential areas, but they endanger their own families to do so. They willingly put their own citizens at risk instead of accepting responsibility for their own actions and fighting in an honourable fashion.

With all due respect, their government does support Hezbollah according to their own President. Read this interview and tell me how they don't support terrorists.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/21/...houd/index.html

What are you doing to get rid of the terrorists the US claims are in Canada? According to your thinking you deserve to be killed and your cities flattened seeing as terrorists have been arrested in Canada ..... and are "known" to have some cells operating in our country. The average citizen here is doing nothing about it. Our army isnt fighting them in the streets ..... because that isnt how you weed out terrorists. Yes this is how Israel justifies what they are doing, and the US concurs.

What freaking planet are you on! Has our Prime Minister suddenly declared that he supports acts of terror against anyone?

The terrorists the US says are in Canada arent firing rockets into the US but 911 was pretty dramatic and Canada was initially blamed for that ......

Yeah people die from political posturing every day here in Canada don't they.

What the US is saying is that there are indications of state sponsored terrorism here. That is an international no-no.

Just as there were "indications" of WMD's in Irag?

Anyone who opposes the US is a terrorist. Anyone the US cant control is a terrorist. Anyone who isnt white and Christian is a terrorist or a potential terrorist ...

Yeah I guess that makes France and Russia terrorist states in your opinion!

This isnt a war between two countries, because the Lebanese Army isnt involved, but the first thing Israel did was blow up their airports and roads so the Lebanese Army couldnt move, except across land ..... Does Hazbulloh have an airforce? What was the justification for this? It was to handicap the Lebanese Armed Forces.

I think that perhaps the point was to ensure the government of Lebanon was made aware that their citizens are conducting terrorist operations against Israel. Now tell me how you would accept members of your family being kidnaped and then have rockets fired at your home. What would you want your government to do about it?

[jdobbin]

We'll let you update us, since you seem to have the most time on your hands.

Probably true. I just got in from the beach and caught it on TV as I stepped in. Ah, holidays...

[Canuck E Stan]

We'll let you update us, since you seem to have the most time on your hands.

Probably true. I just got in from the beach and caught it on TV as I stepped in. Ah, holidays...

Writing screen plays must be very rewarding.

[jdobbin]

Writing screen plays must be very rewarding.

Enough to keep me in the Writers Guild for sure.

[GostHacked]

Kindred,

Who the hell are you?

A Lebanonese propaganda voice of doom.

You might be better to move there,you would be an inspiration for your Hezbulloh (Hezbollah) terrorists.

Better give it up here,you're convincing no one at this forum with your rhetoric.

-CES

He does not need to convince me at all. For, I will support his rhetoric.

Sponsored state terrorism? Like what Israel is doing to the Lebanese people?

jdobbin

Some news organizations are starting to report again that Israel might be looking at letting an International Force into Southern Lebanon comprised of Europeans and Canadians. It was mentioned earlier this morning on CNN and now there seems to be some more information coming out of Israel itself.

Anyone else getting word on this?

Yeah I have heard something like this. But Lebanon would have to put the motion forward at the UN and request the UN to step in. If the UN steps in without Lebanon's consent, then it is pure and simple occupation of Southern Lebanon. That wont help the road map to pieces.

Isreal still has illegal settlements in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Israel has NOT pulled out of the occupied territories and is still in violation of a couple UN resolutions. But no one really pays attention to that. They just think the poor jews are getting beat up on. This happens when you make your home in the middle of the desert among backwards 'savage animals'. I'd hate to live there if the wildlife is always out to get me.

[Argus]

In 911 the US broadcast that the terrorists came straight from Canada, since then they have repeatedly said Canada harbours terrorists.

The US never made any such broadcast. The US has never made any such claims.

The Lebanese Armed Forces have not been engaged, have not fired a shot while Israel flattens their country.

Only the Shiite parts. The rest are fine.

This is not how you fight a guerilla force like the Hezbulloh -

And you know all about how to fight guerrila forces, eh, general?

What are you doing to get rid of the terrorists the US claims are in Canada?

Uhm, arresting them whenever we find them?

According to your thinking you deserve to be killed and your cities flattened seeing as terrorists have been arrested in Canada ....

I'm not quite sure how anyone can remedy a view of the world which says that a country which arrests terrorists is the same as a country which puts them into its parliament and cabinet and lets them parade through its streets with heavy weapons..

Anyone who opposes the US is a terrorist. Anyone the US cant control is a terrorist. Anyone who isnt white and Christian is a terrorist or a potential terrorist ...

This is nothing but mindless hysterical blather.

[GostHacked]

Argus

The US never made any such broadcast. The US has never made any such claims.

You sure on that one?? I recall hearing that from CNN, CBS news and a Foxnews. All of them were reporting this then it quickly dissapeared. I distincly recall hearing and watching that on the MSM in the days following 9/11. Alas you will not find anything about it.

Or will you.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...6-2005Apr8.html

TORONTO -- True or false? Shortly before Sept. 11, 2001, several of the terrorists who would carry out the attacks that day slipped into the United States from Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/200...enna050421.html

WASHINGTON - Outspoken American conservative Newt Gingrich has apologized for saying this week that some of the Sept. 11 hijackers entered the United States from Canada.

Gingrich, a former Republican speaker in the U.S. House of Representatives, retracted the comments on Wednesday after Canadian Ambassador Frank McKenna sent him a letter.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/story....1c726a9&k=56437

WASHINGTON - Canadian Ambassador Frank McKenna demanded an apology and retraction from a United States senator who claimed yesterday that the terrorists who struck the U.S. on Sept. 11, 2001, entered the country from Canada.

Whoa as long as up untill 2005, that shmuck of a senator were still pointing the finger at Canada.

[Argus]

Argus

The US never made any such broadcast. The US has never made any such claims.

You sure on that one?? I recall hearing that from CNN, CBS news and a Foxnews. All of them were reporting this then it quickly dissapeared. I distincly recall hearing and watching that on the MSM in the days following 9/11. Alas you will not find anything about it.

Or will you.

Not from any of the cites you put up. Sure, some media outlets and a few politicians have falsely made that claim. Big surprise. There are a ton of media outlets down south and many aren't as careful with sourcing their material as they should be. Likewise with seven hundred odd congressman and senators one or two are occasionally going to say something dumb. The United States government, however, has never made any such claim.

[Charles Anthony]

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

In this case, precisely who do we include?

Do we include every person who is presently in Lebanon? if not, who do we exclude?

Do we include every person who resides in Lebanon? if not, who do we exclude?

Do we include every person who was born in Lebanon? if not, who do we exclude?

If we can not be precise about who is included in our conception of "a society collectively responsible" and if we can not accurately attribute blame that makes us evil.

[geoffrey]

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

In this case, precisely who do we include?

Do we include every person who is presently in Lebanon? if not, who do we exclude?

Do we include every person who resides in Lebanon? if not, who do we exclude?

Do we include every person who was born in Lebanon? if not, who do we exclude?

If we can not be precise about who is included in our conception of "a society collectively responsible" and if we can not accurately attribute blame that makes us evil.

Don't worry, Argus's argument falls apart when he applies it towards himself. I still haven't seen a reply (maybe I just missed it) to my question whether Argus is personally responsible for not single handledly taking on the FLQ before James Cross was kidnapped.

So Argus, would Britian be justified in bombing your apartment building or neighbourhood if they thought FLQ was there during that conflict? If you died, you'd say they were completely justified and you were responsible and should be a fair target for punishment to Canada?

Do you hold yourself responsible everyday for not stopping the kidnapping of James Cross?

You should be held completely responsible for not stopping it.

A little common sense would help, each Lebanese person on an individual level can't do anything against Hezbollah... a bigger, more powerful FLQ. Could you stop the FLQ single-handedly? They voted for peace, what else can they do? I can't believe your willing to punish a population for not stopping something beyond their means.

I hear those British planes coming for you now Argus, you deserve it apparently...

[Kindred]

Or they could have just ordered everyone out of the city and then blew up the bridges, roads and airports so they couldnt leave and then started shelling the civilians trying to leave just in case the kidnappers were in one of the convoys and they could have blown up Argus and his family, if he has one, and we could have all shrugged and said "oh well they deserved it because they lived in the city where Cross was kidnapped".

Another mini bus filled with innocent people fleeing the area was blown to rat sh*t today ........ what does Israel say about it "oops its difficult to identity the enemy from the air -" geee you think?

I dont have much good to say about the US media, I am sure thats pretty evident, but Anderson Cooper is kind of a media rebel IMO. He's been reporting from Lebanon and has raised some interesting questions about how the people there will view Hezbulloh when they appear to be the only ones helping the average civilian caught in this nightmare, escorting them, providing Aid to them -- in view of recent events and lack of action from other people Hezbulloh could very well be gaining popularity in Lebanon .....

The idea that "punishing" the Lebanese for harbouring Hezbulloh in their country will turn them against Hezbulloh could very well backfire on Israel and ultimately their financial backers and supporters.

He is also reporting a lot of the destruction and casualties, the number has topped 1000 now ..

FYI Syria has sent out some pretty strong warnings to Israel ...... still think they are getting prepared to get involved in this? And Iran wouldnt follow?

[Kindred]

Kindred,

Who the hell are you?

A Lebanonese propaganda voice of doom.

You might be better to move there,you would be an inspiration for your Hezbulloh (Hezbollah) terrorists.

Better give it up here,you're convincing no one at this forum with your rhetoric

As I said before I have friends who are Jews and friends who are Arabs, and I dont "support" either side. I have "studied" the situation for years - reading publications from both sides of the "issues" and both sides have their pros and cons.

I think its regrettable that Israel was carved out of the Lebanese territory, I feel it wasnt "right" to take the land away from the Lebanese, who had virtually no voice in the decision. But I dont believe "the people" are good or bad, from Israel or Lebanon, I have listened to the hate from both sides, heard the resentment and seen the general decency in both Arabs and Jews and do not hesitate to call both of those I know "friends".

HOWEVER I do object to this action by Israel - its totally out of proportion and unjustifiable.

I have also been a Journalist and strive to gain all the facts, and not make an emotional response, tho I did blow up at Argus, over the number of dead children ...... the innocent victims of this barrage and I dont really care if their parents are Hezbulloh, the children are innocent victims, mere babies ...

And I know how hard Lebanon has worked to build their country after decades of war, and to do so without the massive amounts of Foreign Aid that Israel receives.

Witnessing the devestation I oppose the actions of Israel, and their backers. Its that simple.

[Army Guy]

Kindred:

think its regrettable that Israel was carved out of the Lebanese territory, I feel it wasnt "right" to take the land away from the Lebanese, who had virtually no voice in the decision.

Where did you get this info ? perhaps you can show us a link on how Israel was carved out of lebanese territory...

Maybe you should do alittle research on lebanon or for that matter Israel.

My Webpage

HOWEVER I do object to this action by Israel - its totally out of proportion and unjustifiable.

This is your personal opinion, of course if you were actually an Israelis citizen living in fear of rocket attacks or sucide bombers you'd have another opinon. Here in Canada we forget all the advantages we take for granted on a daily basis, sending your kids off to school and not having to worry if they will return alive, or just going to the mall without fear of being blown up. It's easy for us to judge Israel from our armchairs here in Canada.

I have also been a Journalist and strive to gain all the facts, and not make an emotional response, tho I did blow up at Argus, over the number of dead children ...... the innocent victims of this barrage and I dont really care if their parents are Hezbulloh, the children are innocent victims, mere babies ...

You have not shown anything other than an emotional response ,nor have you gather all the facts. Yes you've seen a few pictures of dead lebanese children, and they have done what they were intended to do , invoke an emotional response from us that live in the west.

But what of the dead Israelis children, those killed in rocket attacks or sucide bombings did they not invoke a response.

There is always two sides of the story, any journalist knows this, and all you've down so far is prove that a journalist your not.

And I know how hard Lebanon has worked to build their country after decades of war, and to do so without the massive amounts of Foreign Aid that Israel receives.

What is your piont are you saying Lebanon has not recieve backing from Syria, or any other arab country ?

Are you saying that even after over 200 US marines were killed by terrorists operating in lebanon that the Lebanonese gov't was suppose to control, that lebanon would be on top of the aid list. Give me a break, they should be happy with the amount of Aid the US does send them.

Witnessing the devestation I oppose the actions of Israel, and their backers. Its that simple.

Another well thought out decision made by a teenager.

The idea that "punishing" the Lebanese for harbouring Hezbulloh in their country will turn them against Hezbulloh could very well backfire on Israel and ultimately their financial backers and supporters

Who cares, the lebanese have already made that decision years ago, by allowing the Hez to set up shop, even allowing them to kill of thousands of lebanese citizens. and still they do nothing to control them or to expell them.

They are as guilty as the hez themselfs for sitting idle and doing nothing but watching these terrorist run wild. Now they will have a front row seat once again as Israelis army knocks on thier door. perhaps this time Israel will drive the hez into the extinct column of mankind.

[Black Dog]

This is your personal opinion, of course if you were actually an Israelis citizen living in fear of rocket attacks or sucide bombers you'd have another opinon. Here in Canada we forget all the advantages we take for granted on a daily basis, sending your kids off to school and not having to worry if they will return alive, or just going to the mall without fear of being blown up. It's easy for us to judge Israel from our armchairs here in Canada.

I don't see how any of that is relevant. The emotional appeal works both ways (eg: what of the Paeltisinian parents who wonder if thei kids will run afould of an Israeli sniper?) and solves nothing. Why is one's lack of first-hand exposure to the Israeli experience preclude one from making judegements when clearly the same does not apply to people judging not only Hamas and Hizbullah, but the average Palestinian and Lebanese citizen (eg: "Why don't those Lebanese do something about Hizbullah?")?

[Army Guy]

BD:

I don't see how any of that is relevant.

It's not revelant is it, it's not revelant to this debate, it's not revelant because it's an emotional rant based on only half the story and a few pictures. As you suggested below it solves nothing

The emotional appeal works both ways (eg: what of the Paeltisinian parents who wonder if thei kids will run afould of an Israeli sniper?) and solves nothing.

Why is one's lack of first-hand exposure to the Israeli experience preclude one from making judegements when clearly the same does not apply to people judging not only Hamas and Hizbullah, but the average Palestinian and Lebanese citizen (eg: "Why don't those Lebanese do something about Hizbullah?")?

The Hamas and Hezbullah are one and the same people they are palestinians,or PLO, masters of of twisting the truth, but then again so is Israel and the rest of the middle east. whoms to blame this is the question everyone wants to know, better yet what is the solution, history has already shown us there is NO way the palestinians are going to live in peace next to israel no matter what concessions Israel makes. And now we act as if we are shocked when Israel takes the only remaining solution left, give me a break.

Why is it agains't the law to aid and abed a criminal in the west. Terrorist are criminals are they not, So why is it so hard for Canadians to two and two together. The country of lebanon has done nothing to expell or control PLO gangs of thugs that operate freely within it's borders agains't Israel. A country with an elected goverment by lebanese citizens that has a sizable army that could counter this problem....Do you think lebanon is not aiding them, protecting them under the national flag of lebanon...These are the same people who are shocked by Israelis actions, condemning them, condemning them for what protecting thier own citizens from rocket attacks, sucide bombers.

[Black Dog]

The Hamas and Hezbullah are one and the same people they are palestinians,or PLO, masters of of twisting the truth, but then again so is Israel and the rest of the middle east. whoms to blame this is the question everyone wants to know, better yet what is the solution, history has already shown us there is NO way the palestinians are going to live in peace next to israel no matter what concessions Israel makes. And now we act as if we are shocked when Israel takes the only remaining solution left, give me a break.

I would certainly dispute the characterization of Israel's chosen course as the only option available. Even from a military standpoint, it had other choices.

Why is it agains't the law to aid and abed a criminal in the west. Terrorist are criminals are they not, So why is it so hard for Canadians to two and two together. The country of lebanon has done nothing to expell or control PLO gangs of thugs that operate freely within it's borders agains't Israel. A country with an elected goverment by lebanese citizens that has a sizable army that could counter this problem....Do you think lebanon is not aiding them, protecting them under the national flag of lebanon...These are the same people who are shocked by Israelis actions, condemning them, condemning them for what protecting thier own citizens from rocket attacks, sucide bombers.

Look at the braod context. Lebanon is taking its first steps in many years as a independent, stable democratic state. After 20 years of invasion, occupation and civil war I doubt many had a stomach for more strife. No doubt many turned a blind eye to Hizbullah's action in the south, not anticipating hat Israel would punish all of Lebanon for that organizations actions. In addition, Hizbullah is the only active militia organization in Lebanon and only armed force outside of the majority Shiite national army. So not only was there a lack of will to do anything about Hizbullah (its harrassment of Israel being preferable to civil war), but there's a lack of ability.

In the end, I'm not surprised Israel decided to do somethin about it. But I will certainly take issue with the means they have chosen.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Army Guy,

You may know the answer to this better than anyone,...

condemning them for what protecting thier own citizens from rocket attacks,

I have posted links elsewhere, but I understand that Israel has had the capability to shoot down the katyushas using MTHEL (which was successfully tested against salvos of katyushas in 2002). Are they allowing them to hit Israel to justify their invasion? Is it like the Coventry bombings of WWII, where British citizens were intentionally left in harm's way for the sake of 'the bigger picture'?

[Black Dog]

I don't have a problem with holding a society collectively responsible in certain cases - including this one.

Well, they say politics makes strange bedfellows....

You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake… the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies.”

-Osama bin Laden, “Letter to America” November 24, 2002

As for those in the World Trade Center, well, really, let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire, the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved and they did so both willingly and knowingly.

-Ward Churchill

[Kindred]

When Zionism had its first beginnings, in the early 19th century, there were about 200,000 Arabs living in all of the land, mostly concentrated in the countryside of the West Bank and Galilee, and mostly lacking in national sentiment. Palestine was, in Western eyes, a country without a nation, as Lord Shaftesbury wrote. Early proto-Zionists did not trouble themselves at all about the existing inhabitants. Many were heavy influenced by utopianism. In the best 19th century tradition, they were creating a Jewish utopia, where an ancient people would be revived. They envisioned a land without strife, where all national and economic problems would be solved by good will, enlightened and progressive policies and technological know-how. Herzl's Altneuland was in in fact just such a utopia. In reality, Jewish population grew, but Arab population grew more rapidly. By 1914, there were over 500,000 Arabs in Palestine, but only about 80,000 to 100,000 Jews.............

............... One of the earliest warnings about the Arab problem came from the Zionist writer Ahad Ha'am (Asher Ginsberg), who wrote in his 1891 essay "Truth from Eretz Israel" that in Palestine "it is hard to find tillable land that is not already tilled", and moreover:

From abroad we are accustomed to believing that the Arabs are all desert savages, like donkeys, who neither see nor understand what goes on around them. But this is a big mistake... The Arabs, and especially those in the cities, understand our deeds and our desires in Eretz Israel, but they keep quiet and pretend not to understand, since they do not see our present activities as a threat to their future... However, if the time comes when the life of our people in Eretz Israel develops to the point of encroaching upon the native population, they will not easily yield their place. ...........

............Rashid Khalidi (Palestinian Identity, Columbia, 1997) notes that beginning about 1908 Palestinian newspapers offer extensive evidence of anti-Zionist agitation. Actual conflicts flared up because the Zionists purchased large tracts from landowners and subsequently evicted the tenant farmers. The former tenants, though they had received some compensation, continued to insist that the land was theirs under time honored traditions and tried to take it back by force. A notable case was Al-Fula, where Zionists had purchased a large tract of land from the Sursuq family of Beirut. Local officials took the side of the Arab peasants against the Zionists and against the Ottoman government, which upheld the legality of the sale. 150 Palestinian notables cabled the Ottoman government to protest land sales to Jews in March 1911. Azmi Bey, Turkish governor of Jerusalem responded:

We are not xenophobes; we welcome all strangers. We are not anti-Semites; we value the economic superiority of the Jews. But no nation, no government, could open its arms to groups... aiming to take Palestine from us.

(Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, Knopf 1999 Page 62)

Likewise, the "conquest of labor" movement displaced some Arab watchmen and led to violence. While the actual number of persons displaced or dispossessed may have been small, and may have been offset by real economic benefits and increased employment provided by Zionist investment, the feeling grew among the Arabs that the Zionists had arrived to dispossess them. A Nazareth group complained that the Zionists were "a cause of great political and economic injury... The Zionists nourish the intention of expropriating our properties. For us these intentions are a question of life and death." (Morris, loc cit.) As the conflict intensified, the Zionists formed a guard association, Hashomer, to guard the settlements in place of Arab guards. The attempts to retake land and disputes with Jewish guards led to increased violence beginning in the second half of 1911. .........................

............Following World War I, Palestine came under British rule. Even before they had conquered Palestine from the Ottoman Turkish Empire, owing to the efforts of Zionists, the British government declared its intentions, in the Balfour declaration, of sponsoring a "national home" for the Jews in Palestine. Britain was given a League of Nations Mandate to develop Palestine as a Jewish National home. The Arabs of Palestine were appalled at the prospect of living in a country dominated by a Jewish majority and feared that they would be dispossessed. Anti-Jewish rioting and violence broke out in 1920 and 1921. By this time, Zionist leaders could no longer ignore the conflict with the Arabs. By 1919, representatives of the Jaffa Muslim-Christian council were saying

"We will push the Zionists into the sea or they will push us into the desert" ..........

...............The militant Zionist leader, Vladimir Jabotinsky, asked in 1918:

The matter is not ... an issue between the Jewish people and the Arab inhabitants of Palestine, but between the Jewish people and the Arab people. The latter, numbering 25 million, has [territory equivalent to] half of Europe, while the Jewish people, numbering ten million and wandering the earth, hasn't got a stone...Will the Arab people stand opposed? Will it resist? [Will it insist] that...they...shall have it [all] for ever and ever, while he who has nothing shall forever have nothing?

(Caplan, Neil, Palestine Jewry and the Palestine Question, 1917-1925, Frank Cass, 1978)

Soon after World War I, Zionist leaders clearly recognized the problem. David Ben Gurion told members of the Va'ad Yishuv (the temporary governing body of the Jewish community in Palestine) in June 1919:

But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf; and nothing can bridge it.... I do not know what Arab will agree that Palestine should belong to the Jews...We. as a nation,. want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs. .........

...........Meanwhile the Arab and Jewish communities grew progressively apart. Arabs refused to participate in a Palestinian local government which gave equal representation to the Jewish minority. The British, nearly bankrupt after WW I, insisted that the mandate should be self-sufficient. Mandate services were paid for from taxes paid by the Jewish and Arab inhabitants of Palestine. Additional services were funded by philanthropists from abroad and from membership dues in various organizations. Zionist philanthropy and organization far-outstripped what Palestinian Arabs could provide...........

..............The Zionists, attempting to rescue Jews from the Nazis, organized illegal immigration. The Revisionist Zionist movement began to organize immigration, both legal (with certificates) and illegal, in 1937, from Austria, and later from the free city of Danzig. At least 20,000 Jews were saved in this way. ....

............On November 6, 1944, members of the Lehi underground Eliyahu Hakim and Eliyahu Bet Zuri assassinated Lord Moyne in Cairo. Moyne, a known anti-Zionist, was in charge of carrying out the terms of the 1939 White Paper. The assassination turned Winston Churchill against the Zionists. The Jewish Agency and Zionist Executive believed that British and world reaction to the assassination of Lord Moyne could jeopardize cooperation after the war, that had been hinted at by the British, and might endanger the Jewish Yishuv if they came to be perceived as enemies of Britain and the allies. Therefore they embarked on a campaign against the Lehi and Irgun, known in Hebrew as the "Sezon" ("Season"). Members of the underground were to be ostracized. Leaders were caught by the Hagannah, interrogated and sometimes tortured, and about a thousand persons were turned over to the British.

Following World War II, Britain continued to limit Jewish immigration to Palestine. The Zionist factions united and conducted an underground war against the British, as well as applying pressure on the British government through the United States. In June of 1947, the British rammed the Jewish illegal immigrant ship Exodus (formerly "President Warfield") on the high seas. They towed it to Haifa where it was the subject of extensive publicity, generating public sympathy for the Zionist cause. The passengers were eventually disembarked in Hamburg. The incident set world and particularly US opinion against the British, and caused the British to intern illegal immigrants thereafter in Cyprus, rather than attempting to return them to Europe. On November 29, 1947, the United Nations voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs did not accept the partition plan, and a war broke out. The state of Israel was established on May 15, 1948. .................

...........Most religious Jews and the reform movement, initially anti-Zionist, reconciled themselves with Jewish state, after the Holocaust seemed to bear out the basic thesis that Jews required a homeland of their own and would not necessarily be safe even in the best circumstances, and after creation of Israel proved that Zionist aspirations could become a reality. Success has many fathers. Nonetheless, anti-Zionist ideologies and their representatives persist among religious groups such as the ultraorthodox Neturei Karta and writers such as Noam Chomsky.

This ideological opposition to Zionism later dovetailed with the anti-Israel cold-war politics of the Soviet Union and the Arab antagonism to Israel, as well as with anti-Semitism. Retrospectively, communist ideologues pegged Zionism as a colonialist ideology bent on exploiting and dispossessing the native inhabitants of Palestine, and creating an apartheid colonialist fascist Jewish state. ..........

............. Zionism and Occupation - For many people in Israel and abroad, "Zionism" came to imply support for the settlement of Jews in the territories occupied by Israel in the 6-day war. It assumed a very negative connotation for those who oppose the occupation. The word "Zionism" in the sense of support for settlers is used both by right wing Zionist extremists, and by anti-Zionists. Right wing Zionist extremists insist that withdrawal from the occupied territories will mean the "end of Zionism." Anti-Zionists insist that "expansionism" is part of Zionist ideology. Historically, this view does not seem to have ideological support, since "Greater Israel" was the ideology of the breakaway religious movement created after 1967, and was never the ideology of mainstream Zionism except perhaps for a few decades following the Six Day war. Messianism was part of proto-Zionism, but the Zionist movement was pragmatic in all that it said and did. Expansionism became popular as a result of historical accidents, and not because of ideology. The territory that might be allotted to the Jewish state shrank during the British mandate, creating a sort of irredentism. Rather than being friendly neighbors, it became apparent that the Arab countries would be hostile, generating a desire for "strategic depth" to protect against invasion. It was easy for Israeli governments to say they would return territories for peace, and at the same continue to build Greater Israel, since peace or anything approaching it appeared to be a remote abstraction.

A part of the religious Zionist movement grafted itself on to the temporary realities created after the 6 day war, and evolved a radical Messianic ideology. They insisted that they and only they represent the "real" Zionism. A quiet coup had transformed Zionism. Unfortunately, a considerable part of the world took them at their word. The image of Zionism in the world was transformed from that of a progressive movement of liberation to a movement of fanatics who wanted to create a religious state and disenfranchise a native population. .............

................ Disillusionment and Zionist Counter-Revolution - However, the dream of Greater Israel collided with hard realities. The Arabs of Palestine would soon be a majority between the river and the sea, making a democratic Jewish state impossible. Tens of thousands of IDF soldiers were needed to guard 8,000 settlers against Palestinian terrorism in Gaza. Israelis were confronted with images of Zionist soldiers destroying houses, uprooting trees and killing children as "collateral damage." This was not the Zionism of the school books. Messianism and wishful thinking aside, the state created by flesh and blood was faced with the facts of Palestinian demography, military necessity, humanitarian values and international commitments. ..........

.............Post-Zionism - Beginning in the 1980s, some Israeli historians and sociologists began to question facts about the official history of Israel and Zionism, as well as the Zionist ideology. They reasoned that Zionism had accomplished its purpose in creating the Jewish state, and that now it was time to move on. They posited that Israel and the Zionists had a large share of the blame for the animosity between Jews and Arabs, and had in fact, ignored the existence of the Arabs in Palestine and then dispossessed the Palestinians by force. This reasoning was supported by new histories, that talked frankly about less savory aspects of Israeli history that had been previously ignored. The new historians made a case that at least part of Zionism had always envisioned expulsion or transfer of the Arabs, and described massacres and expulsions which took place in 1948, often claiming that these were part of a deliberate policy. The historians claimed that these new facts were revealed by declassified archives. In fact, the most important facts supposedly "revealed" by the new historians were known to all Israelis who wanted to know them, though perhaps not in detail, and not presented in the particular way that new historians presented them. Facts can be interpreted in different ways. The ideas behind the facts, called by some "post-Zionism," do not necessarily form a coherent ideology and their practitioners do not generally see themselves as members of a movement or followers of a distinct philosophy. ...............

Uncertainties in the data - Debates about the population of Palestine flourish because of the lack of good information and confusion over the meaning of census figures, and the will of partisans to distort history. Census figures of the Ottoman Empire were unreliable. Foreign residents were not counted, and illegal residents did their best to evade the census, as did people wishing to evade military services and taxes. The population figures of the British mandate were more reliable, but there was no published census taken after 1931. Mandatory figures for the period after 1931 are based on hospital and immigration records and extrapolation, it seems. Nomadic Bedouin were not counted or undercounted in both Ottoman and British censuses. Those who became settled in Palestine would then add to population figures. In studying the population of Palestine between 1800 and 1948, we must keep in mind that there was only one agreed-upon reliable census in all that time, which took place in 1931. The British census of 1922 was taken in less than settled conditions, and may have undercounted the population. The Ottoman figures certainly undercounted. The census data of 1922 and 1931 and the estimates based on these censuses have also been challenged but they appear to be internally consistent. That is, in the main, the number of people reported by the British mandate in 1922 and 1931 is consistent with the rates of natural increase that they reported. The numbers given in the 1945 survey are about 100,000 or more below what would be expected based on the number of refugees and remaining population in 1948. Uncertainties in infant mortality and underreporting of births would not account for all of this discrepancy. It could be due to illegal immigration or in part to settling of nomadic Bedouins in the Palestinian Arab population..

And so it began..... Lebanon, as a nation was considered "insignificant". A country without an identity or Nationalist sentiment, open for the Zionists to move into ..... Essentially the early Zionists were seen as fanatics and trouble makers and not wanted anywhere ......

Initially they supported the idea of German Nationalism, keeping in mind that this is the Zionists and not the majority of Jews who sought to distance themselves and renounce Zionism, a movement that had its roots in Russia

Valuable insight into the prevailing ideologies of the time can be gained from Amos Elon's book, "The Pity of it All" (Henry Holt, 2002) which chronicles the tragic history of German Jewry.

The Zionist organization has continued to function after the establishment of the Jewish state. It has helped to bring millions of new immigrants to Israel, encourages the teaching of Hebrew and Jewish culture abroad, lobbies for Israel with the US and other governments, and rallies support to Israel in times of crisis. However, in Israel, "Zionism" became somewhat of a pejorative, associated with government propaganda, super-patriotism and regimentation. The Labor Zionist movement, that had founded the state, eventually found itself in a minority, replaced in large part by more militant religious Zionists and the Likud party, which inherited the mantle of revisionism, carried on by a Begin after the death of Ze'ev Jabotinsky.

[Rue]

I would like to address 2 issues; i-Blackdog's question/rhetorical comment as to how it is irelevant if he is not under attack himself when judging Israel; ii- the notion of collective responsibility and the plight of Lebanon.

In regards to Black-dog's question, it is extremely relevant when he keeps making comments that reflect his lack of awareness when judging Israelis and their right to exist. It is evident when reading anything Blackdog has to say on the Middle-East, he starts witht he assumption that Palestinians are victims and Israel is the victimizer. He also starts with the assumption that Israel has no legal claim to a country for Jews and therefore anything flowing from its attempts to defend its existence is morally wrong.

That makes it relevant because if Blackdog bothered to travel to Israel, and learn the history of its origins and learn where its people came from and how they live, I am convinced most of what he says would change.

Its easy to judge Israel as being an oppressor when you have not actually witnessed what the Israeli Army does, what the Israelis and Palestinians do, and the actual physical space between them and lack of water.

To someone like Blackdog this is a black and white issue with right and wrong and evil Zionists and innocent Palestinians. In reality it is simply about people-people jammed together with little water and a conflict as to who should live and where. It is a conflict as to Jews who want a Jewish country and Muslims who want a Muslim country. Its about Jews who have established a Jewish country but have enshrined in their constitution equal legal rights for Muslims and Christians, but a Muslim world where Jews are not seen as being entitled to such rights in Muslim countries.

If Blackdog travelled to Syria, Iraq, Iran, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, he would soon see that the Muslim world does not have a history of tolerating non Muslims or Muslims outside certain sects. He would see that Muslims particularly Sunnis and Shiites are enemies and that moderate Muslims move to Europe, North or South America because they can't deal with the fundamentalism.

He would find that Palestinians are not all afraid of Israelis and have as many issues with each other as they do with Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs, and citizens of other Arab countries.

He would find out that the most important issue for these people is being able to drink water.

He would find with that every Muslim country today depends on a ruthless secret political police force to run its country and that elections are rigged and the governments corupted.

He would find the vast majority of people in Syria are hungry, unemployed and if they could would have rid themselves of Assad Jr. and his ruthless Mukbarat. He would find that in Iran, there are still many Persians who do not hate Jews and are pro-West and are not fundamentalist. He would find in Egypt that the country is over-crowed, unemployed and a powder-keg ready to explode and that if Mubarak is killed, it could be plunged into a major civil war and if it is taken over by fundamentalists, the entire Middle East goes up inj flames. He would find that Libya is a complete and utter police state still subject to the insanity of its leader Gaddafi who still kills thousands and engages in war in Chad but has successfully propped himself up by once again making peace with European oil interests.

He would find that Palestinians in the Gaza and West Bank live in sheer flith and despair but do not see war as a solution and would be willing to make peace with Israel and work in Israel but can not because if they mention anything like that they could be killed.

He would find out that children as young as 5 and 6 are asked to carry bombs and their parents do not want them to but can not confront these terrorists who recruit them.

That is why it is relevant.

2. In regards to collective responsibility, 40% of Lebanon is Shiite, 35% Christian, the remaining amt. Sunni and Druze.

The 60% non Shiite, do not support Hezbollah, Syria, or shiite fundamentalism. The Christian Lebanese do not like Israel, but can live with them next door and do business with them. The Sunni and Druze have also demonstrated the same intentions.

In regards to the Shiite Muslim population of Iran, it is safe and fair to say that the vast majority of them believe in Hezbollah, and agree with Hezbollah's vision- a fundamentalist Shiite Clerical state similiar to Iran and also believe that Israel shoud be dismantled and all Jews world-wide should be targeted for death until this is achieved.

This wide spread sentiment has been promulgated and conditioned into these people by daily radio and t.v. broadcasts and programming calling for the murder of Jews worldwide and the destruction of Israel and t.v. shows depicting Jews as drinking the blood of Muslim children and the holocaust as never happening.

So yes there is a collective social awareness or common point of view held by these people as to Jews and Israel and to deny it would be naive.

That said, to understand Hezbollah is to understand that in addition to receiving $120 million from Iran yearly, or about $20 - $40 million monthly, Hezbollah depends on its Shiite citizens in Lebanon. It depends on them to participate in a world-wide economic network. It depends on these Shiites sending some of them overseas to Europe, Latin America, the United States, Canada, South Africa, Indonesia, the Phillipines and Australia-New Zealand. It depends on these people setting up elaborate criminal activities to raise funds.

These activities consist of buying and re-selling stolen goods such as baby-food. Itd epends on them flooding the West with its sale of drugs. It depends on these people stealing passports and forging documents. It depends on these people recruiting sympathizers overseas. It depends on these people running dummy companies, front operations and fake charities to raise funds.

It depends on these people telling their relatives and friends overseas that if they don't help, it will be very hard on their grand-dad or loved one back home.

Hezbollah like any terrorist organization depends not just on foreign funding for its military weapons, but on its own citizens being actively involved.

This is why Hezbollah has been linked to major international credit card fraud, welfare fraud, food stamp fraud, and so on.

So is there a collective responsibility. Yes and no. There is a responsibility shared by any citizen in the world who encourages or supports or condones terrorism of any kind including the Shiites of Lebanon who openly support and keep Hezbollah alive. Should we blame all Lebanese and kill them all and punish them all, no no and no again.

In an ideal world, Lebanon would be a free independent state. Its Christians, Druze, Sunnis and Shiites would leave in peaceful co-existence and its citizens would be free to travel and do business in Israel, Syria and anywhere else.

In reality since Lebanon was created in 1942 by the French it has been an artificial enclave. It was officially created by the French as a colony to dominate the Middle East for France. Between the 40's and 1950's itcwas for a brief period of time a French colony and the French treated everyone as inferior savages. Yes if you were a French speaking Christian Lebanese citizen you were better off then a Sunni, Shiite or Druze, but for the most part, Lebanon survived just fine until Syria decided to take over Lebanon which it always viewed as being part of it. Since 1956, Syria has dominated Lebanon and the world looked the other way.

Where does the collective responsibility then lie for what is happening today? Do we blame the French? Syrians? Iranians? Fundamentalist hezbollah terrorists and their supporters? Terrorist supporters world-wide?The UN? The Arab League?

It doesn't matter.

The point is, Lebanon's infrastructure was being used as an agent of terrorism and so becomes a target until the terrorists using that infrastructure are eradicated. If the infrastrucrure is destroyed to prevent it from being the lifeline and supply of blood that keeps Hezbollah alive, yes thousands will die and be displaced.

Yes those people will find themselves caught in between the Hezbollah that uses them as a shield and as pawns to gain public sympathy and the Israelis who are in survival mode.

To summarize, when you are being shot at you shoot back. If the person shooting at you hides behind someone, yes that person can die....and no youd on't have the luxury of being able to push the shield out of the way before you shoot. Its shoot back or die.

That is why it depends on someone neutral to truly be able to remove that person caught in between.

Right now the Blackdogs of the world don't want to remain neutral and help remove the person caught in between. They think the terrorist hiding behind the shield is a victim. If the Blackdogs of the world truly understood the equation they would not see good and bad and would focus their attention on defusing the conflict not condoning and encouraging one side to continue using shields.

As long as their are Blackdogs trying to intellectually defend and rationalize terrorism, these terrorists shall continue and the reality is they have more contempt and disgust for the Blackdogs of the world who apologize for them then they do the Israeli army.

[Army Guy]

BD:

I would certainly dispute the characterization of Israel's chosen course as the only option available. Even from a military standpoint, it had other choices.

Perhaps you can name one that has not been tried, and has shown results. Results for both sides. Not that the military one has produced any results either, but it seems this is the only one the palestinains understand.

Look at the braod context. Lebanon is taking its first steps in many years as a independent, stable democratic state. After 20 years of invasion, occupation and civil war I doubt many had a stomach for more strife. No doubt many turned a blind eye to Hizbullah's action in the south, not anticipating hat Israel would punish all of Lebanon for that organizations actions.

Do you not think that an independant,and stable democratic state, first responsabilty is to ensure that it stayed that way.( i mean this is what they want is peace right) ...but knowing that Isreal has warned them countless times to control them or face Israel direct military action, in fact sign treaties with them to control the PLO.

So if the lebanese have chosen the lesser of to evils , then i guess they made the wrong choose, let me ask you this, would you as leader of that nation decide to take on the PLO or Israel. There must be a pay out it is why everone makes decisions,(starting to sound like DR Phil) lets face it Israel is not very popular in the middle east, so a guy running for office could pick up alot votes for taking a stand against israel,maintianing the status Quo (a big risk) except now they are faced with the reality that Israel is now piosed for an invasion.

No doubt many turned a blind eye to Hizbullah's action in the south, not anticipating hat Israel would punish all of Lebanon for that organizations actions.

How could they not have anticipated Isreal reaction, Israel has warned them on countless times, that this was coming, and have shown them hundards of times via air strikes etc etc....and have in the past invaded...for less...how many times to they have to be whiped before it sinks in.

In addition, Hizbullah is the only active militia organization in Lebanon and only armed force outside of the majority Shiite national army. So not only was there a lack of will to do anything about Hizbullah (its harrassment of Israel being preferable to civil war), but there's a lack of ability.

It's funny that most of northen Lebanon is christian, where most of thier Shiite army is based. they have the ability to control the PLO they just don't want to as they see the christian lebanese as a bigger threat. ( nice stable state)

what are they going to do now if Israel invades, move south and fight along side of the PLO, that much they have already said. So they have chosen there bed. now let them be buried in it.

As for your Quotes, Thats the problem with the west, when footage of 9/11 was shown we gasped in horror, while the middle east cheered burning US flags,....

And bin Ladin is right, we elected them, and we as a people have to live with there decisions or vote them out. but the differance between us and them is we voted them in nobody voted him in, we have to follow rules of conduct they don't. He knows he has the upper hand ,Until we in the west grow balls and fight fire with fire.

As for the other quote Yes he is right as well it would be a stratigic military target. Did those people know that proably not ...

[Army Guy]

Flea bag:

have posted links elsewhere, but I understand that Israel has had the capability to shoot down the katyushas using MTHEL (which was successfully tested against salvos of katyushas in 2002). Are they allowing them to hit Israel to justify their invasion? Is it like the Coventry bombings of WWII, where British citizens were intentionally left in harm's way for the sake of 'the bigger picture'?

This is not really my Speciality, but there is some unclassified military info available, unfortunatly not much different than what is available on the net.

According to my sources The MTHEL proto type has not been produced due to funding cuts.

What has been developed is the THEL a non mobile version ( it has very limited mobility). it's size is extremily large and it must be lacated next a large power source.

This project is Co owned by Isreal and the US. It's main problem is the US has cut funding to it in 2004 so when an MTHEL proto type is available for deployment is unknown at this time.

What my sources do say is Israel is using the radar to use as a warning system but no laser , no mention if Israel is continuing research on it's own ..

Sorry can give you any links to my sources., but here is some data on it i found on the net,

My Webpage

My Webpage

[Army Guy]

Kindred:

Just one question for you how does this relate to my question of perhaps you can show us a link on how Israel was carved out of lebanese territory...

you have yet established how Isreal was created out lebanese territory, The british mandate was the beginings of the state of Israel and the French mandate was the creation of lebanon around the same time. so how could Isreal been carved out Lebanon.

Did you even read the history lesson you posted.

Try this link and tell me if both are related.

My Webpage