North American Union and spp.gov

[jbg]

I said above I consider it most unlikely. But both countries are democracies, and I see it as entirely possible that people that have similar cultures, roughly similar languages, and roughly similar histories and extensive blood, business and marital ties could consider having one federal government cheaper than having two.

Oh hell no. Then what system would be adopted? The Canadian or the US government system. With one large government the prospect of corruption is worse than what you already see. If that was the case then the whole government on both sides need to be completely revamped from top to bottom.

The systems are more similar than meets the eye. The US Constitution is fobbed off British practices of the time. If one would take the trouble to actually read the document the resemblance would be obvious.

Some of these similarities are in such nitty-gritty details as the size of the ridings/constituencies/Congressional Districts (30,000), the matching of the Presidential term (4 years) to the traditional length of a British prime ministerial mandate, and teh express borrowing of the British system to delineate jury trial rights. Less obvious ones involve actual practice, such as the use of the English language to transact financial and government business.

[US Citizen]

Sounds to me like she knows what the H**L is going on...

She sounds like a bad soap-opera actress reading from a cue card and wearing contact lenses for the first time in her life.

Describes that video to a "t".

Yeah, but do you AGREE with what she had to say?

I said above I consider it most unlikely. But both countries are democracies, and I see it as entirely possible that people that have similar cultures, roughly similar languages, and roughly similar histories and extensive blood, business and marital ties could consider having one federal government cheaper than having two.

Well, what about this?

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060830210915992

And also, you keep referring to 2 countries. Don't forget about the 3rd. If this happens, you will see a HUGE influx of Americans up your way who WILL BE MOVING NORTH to get away from the mess Mexican citizens have left our border states in...I don't mean to be rude...after all, I do consider myself a "vistor" here and I do appreciate it...But you guys had better wake up...and soon. Check out these links, too.

(copied from a post I made on the Indianapolis Star forums:) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Myth: The SPP was an agreement signed by Presidents Bush and his Mexican and Canadian counterparts in Waco, TX, on March 23, 2005.

Fact: The SPP is a dialogue to increase security and enhance prosperity among the three countries. The SPP is not an agreement nor is it a treaty. In fact, no agreement was ever signed."

http://spp.gov/myths_vs_facts.asp

yeah...not signed by Bush, but doesn't THIS count? What were they signing, if not "an agreement or a treaty"?

http://www.geocities.com/fallenstarm...signatures.doc

complete link: (in all 3 languages) http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/aspan/aspan_junio2005.pdf

WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!!!! (end quote)

Oh yeah, one more thing...PAT ROBERTSON is NOT a xenophobe as the article in the Canadian paper stated...He is a true American patriot and we need more just like him. Be on the watch for the name TOM TANCREDO...there is a growing movement to get him to run for President in '06. He is our ONLY hope...the dems and repub have sold their souls to corporate, globalist greed...and it sounds to me like your leaders are in bed with them...

[Charles Anthony]

What do you recommend we do?

[US Citizen]

What do you recommend we do?

Well, assuming that you are being serious...that you take all this seriously...I would just say do the same thing we are doing. There are many, many websites which have been created for the sole purpose of trying to stop what our government is doing. Many, many US citizens have bombarded their Senators and Congressmen with emails, phone calls, faxes, visits to their local offices. Not only that, but we have done the same thing to ALL the Senators and Congressmen...especially the ones directly involved. The voice of the American people put a stop to the Senate's outrageous amnesty plan for illegal immigrants...at least until after the November midterm elections. People in the US are so fed up with it all...the war, illegal immigrants, the economy, the war on the middle class, rising health care costs...I firmly believe that the only way we will be able to get their attention is to vote out all the incumbents. However, with the controvery over our electronic voting machines, we can only wonder if we will be having a truly "free" election after all.

http://news.com.com/2100-1009_3-5054088.html (Just one of MANY sites regarding this issue)

If you still are not TRULY convinced that our leaders are not quietly implementing all this, just do some research. Thank God we STILL have the internet...don't know for how much longer though.

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/004864.php (the so called "cybercrime laws" are already an international entity.) Just do a search on "cybercrime laws"...it IS NOT about porn and terrorism.

Back to the NAU...here's a chilling quote from the NY Times:

'If Mr. Bernanke had a message to political leaders, it was that they needed to acknowledge the costs of globalization, in terms of lost jobs, disrupted livehoods and wrenching change and help their constituents come to terms with them.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/25/business...e6waRn8pHLrZaQg

here are some more links: have you heard about the North American OSHA? http://www.naalcosh.org/english/index.shtml

I'm sure you have heard about this already: http://www.nascocorridor.com/

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=16058

Look, I could sit here ALL DAY LONG doing this. The thing is, you have to at least do something...unless you see this all as a good thing, as some Americans do....corporate types who will benefit from the lowered standard of living for the citizens of both countries, IMHO. Join other Canadian forums where you can learn what is REALLY going on. If Canada is like the US, your mainstream media WILL NOT tell you. If I were you, I wouldn't be concerned with the military security Canada will gain from the US...looks like we MAY be stretched even further; who knows what is going to happen with Iran now...I would be worried about losing your water supply!

http://www.waterbank.com/Newsletters/nws42.htm

[non legitimus carborundum]

Canada will not become part of the U.S.A in the forseeable future.

First, their system of Republicans vs. Democrats is extremely well balanced and stable (too stable some say). Thus the addition of 31,000,000 Canadians would tend to give the Democrats a huge voting bloc to add to their constituency.

Naturally the Republicans etc., will make sure this will never happen. Nobody wants to rock the boat this way.

Next, by leaving our famous 'undefended border', in place, the U.S.A can point to the world and boast of their peaceful, non threatening ways. So Canada's independence is in the U.S.A's interest in world political circles, or at least on the streets of other countries around the world.

Last, they own us anyway. The U.S.A would be bothered and put out if they closed their borders for a week.

Canada would be on its knees if the U.S.A if this happened. We owe our standard of living and security to them and their military machine. IMHO this explains a lot of the endemic anti-Americanism because nobody likes to admit their status in the REAL world.

So Canada will continue to stand 'proud and free' (tee hee!)

[US Citizen]

http://www.fina-nafi.org/eng/triumvirat06/...nu=triumvirat06

http://www.nafta-mexico.org/

http://www.fina-nafi.org/eng/part/collab04...g&menu=part

[US Citizen]

Where do members of this forum stand on this?

Canadian Action Party

The Metamorphosis and Sabotage of Canada by Our Own Government-

The North American Union

http://www.paulgrignon.netfirms.com/Canadi...morphosis1.html

[Charles Anthony]

I oppose big government. In my opinion, I think both Canada and the U.S.A. are each ridiculously big countries. I would rather see a dissolution and the creation of smaller governmental jusridictions. We can all share whatever currency we want or waste our money exchanging thousands of different currencies, I do not care. Ultimately, with smaller governments and less Big Brother force or control, all of the jurisdictions will trade stable currencies and stupid ones will be ignored. This is what some South American countries do: use the American dollar instead of their own.

unless you see this all as a good thing, as some Americans do....corporate types who will benefit from the lowered standard of living for the citizens of both countries, IMHO.

One other issue of contention that I have centers around the concept of commercial protectionism. I believe that there are "corporate types" currently thriving on government-granted protectionism AT THE EXPENSE OF CONSUMERS. In a North American Union, their ability to rip-off consumers would be massively decreased. I believe some opposition to the North American Union is purely out of corporate self-interest.

Some people are afraid of "illegal immigrants" innundating the continental work-force and lowering the standard of living yadda yadda yadda. I believe and understand those mechanics but I do not oppose them. I think it is fair to let Mexicans flood the Canadian labor market and vice versa. I do not have an allegiance to fellow Canadian jobs any more than to fellow Mexican jobs (or anybody in between). Therefore, I would rather have no borders in that regard.

What do you recommend we do?

Well, assuming that you are being serious...that you take all this seriously...I would just say do the same thing we are doing.

I am serious and I ask the question because I do not believe that you nor I have any ability to make a difference.

This is the deal: a small government ruling over a small jurisdiction can not bully its neighboring country. Hence, if every single state and province was an individual country, RELATIVE TO WHAT WE HAVE NOW each jurisdiction will be forced to accept comprehensive free trade. It would be more difficult to have protectionist policies at the expense of the consumer. In the North American continent, the result would be migrant Mexicans attaining a higher standard of living while sedentary Northeners dropping to a lower standard of living. Ergo, many small countries with many borders leads to more economic freedom than otherwise by virtue of the fact that no jurisdiction could impose anything on any other. More borders means less coersion and thus, more freedom.

[US Citizen]

Good for THESE guys!!!

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51904

Let me know what happens...

[US Citizen]

Once again, I start by THANKING YOU for allowing me to be a part of your forum. I joined ONLY to see what you all think about the formation of the NAU. Having been a member for a few weeks, this is what I see as a result of being on this forum...It APPEARS to me that a few of you are just beginning to awaken to what a GROWING NUMBER of Americans are realizing...The NAU is happening, as we speak.

I wish to share 2 forums with you...The first I discovered just today...and I "rushed" here to report it to you...The second one started with ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION that is rapidly escalating into an American civil war. Don't believe that? Go to "YouTube" and just type in ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. You will see and hear the HATRED that is growing in the United States. But I digress...Here are the forums...You will all have to make up your own minds, but let me end by saying, "Time is running out for the sovereignty of BOTH our countries...

http://www.unitednorthamerica.org/board.php

http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showforum=72

From this forum, I want to specifically point out this thread:

http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17436

[JerrySeinfeld]

I'm all for it - I think we could both use eachothers strengths and help get rid of our respective weaknesses.

But what would we call it?

UNA?

[jbg]

The UNA board has been almost moribund since Spring 2004 when I joined. If that's any indication sovereignty of the US, Canada is in no danger at all.

[Higgly]

Seems to me we'de be giving up a lot. What would we be getting back in return?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Canada has had the short end of the stick in this relationship from the begining since we are in literal fact only a tiny fraction in size and economy. So yes we get pushed around alot, but having said that no other nation on this earth enjoys the benefits from mutual association that we in Canada do. There is even far more that could be gained from expanding this relationship.

Perhaps more importantly these days in terms of the current state of industrialization and energy consumption we are now becoming even more important to the United States than we ever were. The simple truth is that we need each other badly. That vast gulf in political differences that exists between the two nations is a large sized wall to scale. But it is only a challenge and not truely an impossible impediment that we must overcome.

Together these two nations are able to provide energy self sufficiency, agricultural self sufficiency and so much more. Seperately both nations are dependent upon each other to a certain degree. In combination we would be a dominant economic player in the international forum. In very real terms American citizens and Canadian citizens are truely alike in social and cultural matters. It is only the political sector that we differ in and in that we tend to be more people orientated and the Americans more business focused. A merging of the two mindsets would benefit both nations.

[Higgly]

... but having said that no other nation on this earth enjoys the benefits from mutual association that we in Canada do.

"Stop brother. what's that sound. Everybody look what's goin' round."

I'd suggest you look into this a little deeper.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I have looked into it, rather extensively actually. While I am not a NAFTA fan, nor a WTO fan by any stretch of the imagination those organizations are an attempt to coordinate business activities. I am decidedly anti multinational corporation, yet not anti business. I take a stand against corporate governance and favour direct democracy. Its all about freedom for citizens and anything that enhances that freedom is what interests me. I believe that a superstate created from Canada and the United States would serve that purpose. It would provide a foundation that would create the opportunity to improve the human condition by example.

[crazymf]

Damn, I just paid for a new passport.....

Where do I sign?

Do we have to take Quebec?

[jbg]

Together these two nations are able to provide energy self sufficiency, agricultural self sufficiency and so much more. Seperately both nations are dependent upon each other to a certain degree. In combination we would be a dominant economic player in the international forum. In very real terms American citizens and Canadian citizens are truely alike in social and cultural matters. It is only the political sector that we differ in and in that we tend to be more people orientated and the Americans more business focused. A merging of the two mindsets would benefit both nations.

You can keep the same benefits by retaining the same state of deep, relatively brotherly peace we now have. Merger is totally unnecessary, and would dilute Canada's remaining identity even more.

And I speak as an American.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It is not the Canadian identity that needs to be diluted JBG. America is in desperate need of real friends. Our culture and identity is as assured as any southern Rebel in your own nation. We will always truely be a distinct society. What is needed at this point in time is a means of altering the world perception of America, the reputation of your nation is being tarnished. Canada can provide cover for your nation.

America now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. The US economy is in taters and the strain on the government budget is becoming problematic. The military industrial complex is eating you alive and you simply can't or won't see it for what it is. You are starting to eat your own economic young through the devolution of your once so proud capitalistic democracy. Corporate governance has taken root through the arms and defense industries and their attending lobbies. Pork barrel politics is the name of the game at the expense of the needs of the citizens.

Strangely enough closer ties to Canada can help the international perception of the United States. America needs to take a few steps back from the bleeding edge of international politics, and focus instead on homeland security and all that goes with it. Unless America accepts a pause it wil find itself involved in Iran and North Korea. Soon enough you will find yourselves trading Taiwan for South Korea with China. Iran is the number one supplier of oil from the middle east to China, and just as the Japanese emargo to Japan in the thirties brought on Pearl Harbour a similiar fate may well become a reality in the case of withdrawing access to strategic resources from China.

Now is a very dangerous time for America, it is the time to reconsider your options my friend. Without a pause to reformat a political/economic approach to the "New World Order" America faces extremely difficult choices.

[geoffrey]

It is not the Canadian identity that needs to be diluted JBG. America is in desperate need of real friends. Our culture and identity is as assured as any southern Rebel in your own nation. We will always truely be a distinct society. What is needed at this point in time is a means of altering the world perception of America, the reputation of your nation is being tarnished. Canada can provide cover for your nation.

Canada can't even decide what it's culture is, let alone call itself a unified nation. We have a considerable sepertist movement in Quebec and in the West we have a very disconnected population. We're a very divided nation, I speak for alot of Albertans when I say we are likely a better fit with Northern state Americans than with 416 Ontarians.

There are as many differences between Western Canada and Ontario as there is Ontario and the US. Same with Quebec.

[Drea]

There are as many differences between Western Canada and Ontario as there is Ontario and the US. Same with Quebec.

Although I agree with you that those of us in the west have more in common with those in the pacific northwest, we still are Canadians. They are still Americans.

I am proud of my Canadian heritage -- I'm 12.5% Metis, 25% French Canadian, 50% German, 12.5% unknown and 100% Canadian.

I don't believe a merging our countries is a good idea as we have differing philosophical ideals.

A good trade relationship, however, is crucial.

[jbg]

Canada can provide cover for your nation.

The US is one of th efew nations where the people hold their identity as a nation as sacred as we do. I doubt that "Advance Australia Fair" brings as many tears to eyes as the "Star Spangled Banner". And Canada's identity? Which one? Quebec? 416?

America now finds itself between a rock and a hard place. The US economy is in taters and the strain on the government budget is becoming problematic.

Our stock market just closed at all time records, inflation and unemployment are both rock-bottom. I don't think we're in "tatters". You may be right, literally, that we are in "taters" owning to Idaho's and Maine's large potato crop.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

JBG Enron looked pretty good on the big board and so did Brex didn't they? That is about the sum reality of the market isn't it? The stock market is not a real valuable tool of determining economic health. The US annual budget deficit is a large as many nations GDP, your are borrowing your brains out down there. Which wasn't such a bad thing on the one hand in your capitalistic world in as much as private corporations are floating a hell of a lot of public paper debt. But on the other hand it leaves the government in a large way influenced by corporate concerns. Not exactly a by the people and for the people kinda operation anymore is it?

The United States is beginning to see the bubble burst in real estate. How much of your economy is engaged in residential construction and in all the other do dads that go with it like appliances and furniture JBG? With a fall in new home construction don't you think that maybe there will be a detrimental impact on your economy? When real estate prices fall the next step is a drop in new home sales, and then new home construction slows doesn't it? As it stands now foreclosusers a way up, and interest rates are in an upward trend as well aren't they? Doesn't that translate into an increase in foreclosures? With foreclosures on the rise then used home prices fall to absorb the increased entrance of discounted priced homes that banks are unloading to mitigate their losses, then the bottom falls out of the market. It always has before, and it will again.

Add to this problem the current war footing that your economy is thriving off of. The next election will be fought on getting out of Iraq, the planned exit strategies of the Republicans verses the Democrats. Either way, once you do get out then defense spending will fall won't it? How much of your economy is tied to the viability of the military industrial complex JBG? With a reduction in defense spending wont there be a rollback of pork barrel political contracts and a corresponding drop in employment in those industries? Reducing employment will further hurt the real estate sector, but it will also has an effect on the financial sector considering the impact on blue chip companies and mutual funds won't it?

Keeping in mind the current trend toward flipping the greenback in favour of the Euro for oil in the middle east, there is already pressure on the US dollar that will become very problematic for the US Fed won't it? That in conjunction with a large scale correction in the stock market will impact the greenback and that will have a long term consequences. High standards of living in western economies are about to confront the low standards of living in the far east to an extent never before seen. China is starting to develop an economy driven by modern industrial production that will place it in direct competition with western producers in the same markets and with the same products. Our workforce cost more than ten times theirs, where do you think the jobs will go JBG?

This isn't pie in the sky stuff JBG, it is real and current. Cross referance data for yourself and see what I am talking about, there is a distinct possibility that a major crunch is coming. The American government needs to start thinking outside of the box in order to survive what will come over the next few years.

How do you think your government will look in international eyes when the wheels fall off JBG. You folks need some friends right damn now, before it hits the fan. Loyalty counts people, but damn the torpedoes when its too late to help.

[PolyNewbie]

The problem with the North American Union is not the merging of the countries. In the North American Union we move to a corporatized state. This is Fascism. They want to create a new North America with centralized fascist control.

Lyndon LaRouche talks about this but without bringing the NAU into the speech. This is a great speech on what is happening and why in the world today.

http://larouchepac.com/pages/audio_video_f...09_webcast.html

[kimmy]

From this forum, I want to specifically point out this thread:

http://www.saveourstate.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=17436

A guy who saw a bumper-sticker on a rig and believe it's proof that a government conspiracy is at work?

You know, there might be government conspiracies... but I doubt they advertise on trucks.

The agreement of March 23, 2005 referred to in the thread is the "Security and Prosperity Partnership"... http://www.spp.gov/ ...which seems to be primarily concerned with "the war on terrah", not creating a pan-continental government.

-k