"Conservatives On The Defensive!"

[betsy]

Mike Duffy couldn't get enough of this new controversy. He's calling this the "turning point" for the Conservatives...where for the first time, they are on the defensive. He and the other parties' reps had a heyday being "outraged" and indignant.

I have not seen the gestures, so I could not really say how "bad" it was. As a citizen I am appalled for such childish behaviours, if true. Harper was not present today when the sparks really flew...I don't know if he was present when the incident actually happened.

BUT for the media and the Liberals to feel this way...it's so hypocritical. These media had immortalized and just loved the "cutesy" childish prank done by Trudeau in his famous mocking pirouette behind the queen....which I had found in poor taste and unbecoming of any ordinary dignified man, never mind a Prime Minister of all people.

Maybe these poor Conservative MPs, most notably Poillievre's (behind-the-curtain act) were just trying to borrow a page from the old man....thinking they'll gain the same reaction.

Anyway, Harper ought to do something about any stupid acts from any aspiring comics in his party. Imitating the Liberals is the very last thing anyone should do!

"Harper urged to apologize for MPs' rude gestures

Updated Wed. Jun. 14 2006 5:36 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Opposition MPs are calling on Prime Minister Stephen Harper to apologize after at least three Conservative MPs made crude arm gestures across the floor of the House of Commons.

Oshawa MP Colin Carrie; Jacques Gourde, parliamentary secretary to Agriculture Minister Chuck Strahl; and Pierre Poilievre, parliamentary secretary to Treasury Board President John Baird, acted out the crude motion as MPs voted on a farm bill Tuesday evening -- with the latter two members caught making the gestures on the House of Commons camera.

Several MPs also alleged that they saw Poilievre standing behind the curtains in the House of Commons mocking Speaker Peter Milliken."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

[August1991]

As they say, this is a tempest in a glass of water.

It is even less than an old French Canadian mouthing or a famous Sicilian hand gesture.

The Left would be wise to stop playing the man and to start playing the ball.

[Canuck E Stan]

The gesticulation -- suggesting an anatomically impossible act -- involves crossing both arms at the elbow, with one moving in an upward direction

CTV

Wasn't this something done by teens(dances like the twist,the jerk and the chicken) during the dance craze of the early sixties?

If not,maybe the conservatives could start a new dance and call it the Graham cracker.

[geoffrey]

I could care less, when an issue affects my life, I'll complain. If politicans act frustrated like humans, I really don't mind. Liberal or CPC, NDP or Bloc, I could care less really. What a weak attack.

The CBC is running with it as I write this post though. Saying the CPC is immoral and stiring up trouble while the Liberals just wave boxes of chocolate. Then again, its Eric Sorensen's report, who, if I'm not mistaken, files an anti-CPC non-sense report every night?

I'm hardly partisan, and this isn't a partisan defense. Seriously, if the biggest trouble you can find on a government is some MP's making an F-off motion with their arms, we are doing soooo well as a country.

[Hicksey]

There have been several Liberals guilty of the same parliamentary childishness to not just their fellow MPs but to other heads of state over the past 13 years. What, if any, punishment did the Liberal Party apply to them?

Is it more or less than being demanded now?

If less, then why less?

If more, then why should a conservative be punished more severely for the same conduct?

And lastly ...

If this is the best reason the Liberals can come up with to try to sway public opinion of the CPC, why even bother?

To me so much made of so little makes them look as childish as the MP who made the gesture in the first place.

[Michael Hardner]

If more, then why should a conservative be punished more severely for the same conduct?

If they promise that they will be better, then they should be held to a higher standard. It seems to me that there has been criticism from conservative quarters in the past about the Liberals' poor behavior in the house. But there doesn't seem to be the same level of concern for CPC members in the house. Perhaps my memory fails me.

[scribblet]

Question period is a joke, its amore of a forum for the opposition to play games and turn parliament into a circus, and a dysfunctional one at that.

[Hicksey]

If more, then why should a conservative be punished more severely for the same conduct?

If they promise that they will be better, then they should be held to a higher standard. It seems to me that there has been criticism from conservative quarters in the past about the Liberals' poor behavior in the house. But there doesn't seem to be the same level of concern for CPC members in the house. Perhaps my memory fails me.

Don't get me wrong. I don't condone the behavior and I thought my characterization of it above would have gotten that point across. It just occurred to me that the Liberals are really in no position to decry such behavior.

That being said, the conservatives DID promise to be better and it does disappoint me that such behavior still exists in the HOC.

We have been getting at least one, and most years two, such occurrences as long as I can remember. As a result we have almost been immunized to the behavior and now we just don't get as outraged. These days only us partisans seem to care. These events are almost expected anymore, I think this is the real tragedy of the situation.

[betsy]

Btw, the gesture was apparently done in response to the mocking gestures of the Liberals (directed towards the Conservatives), for waving around a box of chocolates referring to forest gump. I don't get the implication with forest gump but I did hear one Liberal MP tell a Conservative minister the day before the Conservative response, "life is a box of chocolates"...or something like that.

Like children, the Liberals cried "foul" and tattle-taled.

[scribblet]

Btw, the gesture was apparently done in response to the mocking gestures of the Liberals (directed towards the Conservatives), for waving around a box of chocolates referring to forest gump. I don't get the implication with forest gump but I did hear one Liberal MP tell a Conservative minister the day before the Conservative response, "life is a box of chocolates"...or something like that.

Like children, the Liberals cried "foul" and tattle-taled.

In other words, we don't have the whole story.

Wonder if Mike Duffy is playing into the liberals' good books hoping for a Senate appointment if they should return to power ?

[killjoy]

The gesticulation -- suggesting an anatomically impossible act -- involves crossing both arms at the elbow, with one moving in an upward direction

Typical lame reporting by the Canadian media. How do they know it's "impossible" until they've at least given it a good try first?

.

[Oddman]

The Conservative government are the most self-congratulaTory government in the history of our nation. Seriously...

They are also tearing a page out of the McGuinty handbook - answering every last question with "The Liberals did this, and the Liberals did not do that...and the Liberals, the Liberals, the Liberals...."

They give State of the Union-ish standing ovations if Rona Ambrose farts.

They have the most phony "here, heres" any of us have ever heard.

Harper's overly-rehearsed way of answering questions is starting to look like a film clip stuck between frames.

"Well, Mr. Speaker (arms slightly wave open as his head dips to the left), I am surprised to hear the opposition worry about (place issue here) when they had 13 years to (place issue here). This Conservative government is dedicated to (place issue here) unlike the former Liberal government who squandered money the was supossed to go towards (place issue here)."

The Cons are taking soap box politics to a whole new level.

[Argus]

The Conservative government are the most self-congratulaTory government in the history of our nation. Seriously...

And your knowledge of history is so deep that you can tell us all about every other Canadian government which has ever been in power, right?

[sharkman]

The Conservative government are the most self-congratulaTory government in the history of our nation. Seriously...

They are also tearing a page out of the McGuinty handbook - answering every last question with "The Liberals did this, and the Liberals did not do that...and the Liberals, the Liberals, the Liberals...."

They give State of the Union-ish standing ovations if Rona Ambrose farts.

They have the most phony "here, heres" any of us have ever heard.

Harper's overly-rehearsed way of answering questions is starting to look like a film clip stuck between frames.

"Well, Mr. Speaker (arms slightly wave open as his head dips to the left), I am surprised to hear the opposition worry about (place issue here) when they had 13 years to (place issue here). This Conservative government is dedicated to (place issue here) unlike the former Liberal government who squandered money the was supossed to go towards (place issue here)."

The Cons are taking soap box politics to a whole new level.

This is just politics 101, blaming the previous administration. I don't think McGuinty is the first. You can't blame them, what with over a decade of Liberal super arrogance and waste to clean up.

[Oddman]

The Conservative government are the most self-congratulaTory government in the history of our nation. Seriously...

And your knowledge of history is so deep that you can tell us all about every other Canadian government which has ever been in power, right?

Well, I don't need to live 40, 50, 100 years ago to come to that conclusion. I base it on several elements of modern politics, especially media coverage. With the amount of exposure there is for Question Period, for example, the Tory performances are disgusting and way, way over the top. It's embarassing, as a Canadian, to watch. I am in no way saying the Liberals were great in the House, but it feels like the Cons are so giddy and cocky that they will cheer and hollar about any random comment made.

Even if Pearson were this embarassing to watch, hardly anyone would actually watch it due to lack of coverage, and that's why it is the most self-congratulatory AND embarassing government we have ever had.

Harper said "God Bless Canada" the other day. WTF is that?

[Argus]

The Conservative government are the most self-congratulaTory government in the history of our nation. Seriously...

And your knowledge of history is so deep that you can tell us all about every other Canadian government which has ever been in power, right?

Well, I don't need to live 40, 50, 100 years ago to come to that conclusion. I base it on several elements of modern politics, especially media coverage. With the amount of exposure there is for Question Period, for example, the Tory performances are disgusting and way, way over the top. It's embarassing, as a Canadian, to watch. I am in no way saying the Liberals were great in the House, but it feels like the Cons are so giddy and cocky that they will cheer and hollar about any random comment made.

Even if Pearson were this embarassing to watch, hardly anyone would actually watch it due to lack of coverage, and that's why it is the most self-congratulatory AND embarassing government we have ever had.

For smugness, the Mulroney government was worse, overall. For open contempt for the opposition the Chretien and Martin governments really did win the day in the House. For massive arrogance, you can't beat Trudeau and his senior ministers. For self-serving and embarrassingly classless performances the Chretien opposition was the worst (I still remember Sheila Copps jumping over chairs as she screeched at a tory cabinet minister). All of this was on television. But television really has nothing to do with whether previous governments were more "self contragulatory" than the Harper Conservatives.

I think what you mean to say is "I hate conservatives", isn't it? I mean, that is the gist of your message, and it has nothing to do with how they behave in the House.

Harper said "God Bless Canada" the other day. WTF is that?

I would presume it's a wish for Canada's good health from a very religious man. You have a problem with religious people wishing Canada well?

[Oddman]

The Conservative government are the most self-congratulaTory government in the history of our nation. Seriously...

And your knowledge of history is so deep that you can tell us all about every other Canadian government which has ever been in power, right?

Well, I don't need to live 40, 50, 100 years ago to come to that conclusion. I base it on several elements of modern politics, especially media coverage. With the amount of exposure there is for Question Period, for example, the Tory performances are disgusting and way, way over the top. It's embarassing, as a Canadian, to watch. I am in no way saying the Liberals were great in the House, but it feels like the Cons are so giddy and cocky that they will cheer and hollar about any random comment made.

Even if Pearson were this embarassing to watch, hardly anyone would actually watch it due to lack of coverage, and that's why it is the most self-congratulatory AND embarassing government we have ever had.

For smugness, the Mulroney government was worse, overall. For open contempt for the opposition the Chretien and Martin governments really did win the day in the House. For massive arrogance, you can't beat Trudeau and his senior ministers. For self-serving and embarrassingly classless performances the Chretien opposition was the worst (I still remember Sheila Copps jumping over chairs as she screeched at a tory cabinet minister). All of this was on television. But television really has nothing to do with whether previous governments were more "self contragulatory" than the Harper Conservatives.

I think what you mean to say is "I hate conservatives", isn't it? I mean, that is the gist of your message, and it has nothing to do with how they behave in the House.

Harper said "God Bless Canada" the other day. WTF is that?

I would presume it's a wish for Canada's good health from a very religious man. You have a problem with religious people wishing Canada well?

I have a problem with a leader who fuses religion in with his message. I believe that the church has absolutely no business being mixed with politics. Harper is sounding like GWB more and more every day.

All of the governments you cited did everything you said they did, and as I stated earlier I am not defending any previous government. I do not hate the Condervatives, I know a few Conservative MPs - what I do not like is the way they conduct themselves in the House, and I feel it is far beyond patting themselves on the back. They act like babies. They don't answer questions and when they do it turns out to be either a half truth or an outright lie (lower income tax hike, softwood lumber deal that was not really in place, Rona Ambrose...pretty much everything she has to say...and of course the constant "here here" for nothing in particular).

All this from a government who was supposed to clean up government and be more transparent.

[Riverwind]

I would presume it's a wish for Canada's good health from a very religious man. You have a problem with religious people wishing Canada well?

Would you have a problem if he started running around saying 'Allah Bless Canada'?

[August1991]

For smugness, the Mulroney government was worse, overall. For open contempt for the opposition the Chretien and Martin governments really did win the day in the House. For massive arrogance, you can't beat Trudeau and his senior ministers. For self-serving and embarrassingly classless performances the Chretien opposition was the worst (I still remember Sheila Copps jumping over chairs as she screeched at a tory cabinet minister).

I more or less agree with Argus.

The Liberals going back to beyond the beyond have been arrogant. It's their schtick, and it works. Diefenbaker defeated the Liberals because they were perceived as arrogant. The Liberals have also managed to be the only "national" party, crossing the linguistic divide.

By presenting themselves as the "Natural Governing Party", alot of people who pay even less attention to politics than I do to sports (if that's possible), just vote Liberal. If I had to vote for a sports team, I'd probably vote for the Montreal Canadiens simply because I've heard of them and they always seem to win. In such a world and with such people, it's useful to develop a reputation (brand is the new word) of being arrogant winners.

I don't know if I'd describe Mulroney's government as smug. (Maybe after the 1984 victory.) Mulroney had a bizarre caucus and he himself came off as an upstart kid on the make. Hucksterism.

Would you have a problem if he started running around saying 'Allah Bless Canada'?

Allah is Arabic for God. Incidentally, I have never heard Harper finish any speech in French with a reference to God. The phrase "God Bless Canada" does not translate well into French.

[Riverwind]

Would you have a problem if he started running around saying 'Allah Bless Canada'?

Allah is Arabic for God. Incidentally, I have never heard Harper finish any speech in French with a reference to God. The phrase "God Bless Canada" does not translate well into French

I suspect the equivalent Muslim phrase would be something like 'May the light of Allah shine upon Canada'. Using the phrase 'God Bless Canada' in speeches made in the role of Prime Minister is not appropriate because it is insulting to many Canadians who do not believe in his brand of Christianity. How do you think people would react if a PM starting ending speehes with Muslim blessings?

[Oddman]

Would you have a problem if he started running around saying 'Allah Bless Canada'?

Allah is Arabic for God. Incidentally, I have never heard Harper finish any speech in French with a reference to God. The phrase "God Bless Canada" does not translate well into French

I suspect the equivalent Muslim phrase would be something like 'May the light of Allah shine upon Canada'. Using the phrase 'God Bless Canada' in speeches made in the role of Prime Minister is not appropriate because it is insulting to many Canadians who do not believe in his brand of Christianity. How do you think people would react if a PM starting ending speehes with Muslim blessings?

I agree completely. Especially since Harper said this after the, ahem, terror arrests. Then, also immediately following the arrests he conveniently announces 1.4 billion in new intelligence/defence spending. His speeches are now filled with "terror", "terrorist threat" and other Frum-like stanzas. To add God on top of that is a cheap ploy to scare the populous.

[sharkman]

God bless Canada is only insulting to Canadians with a religious chip on their shoulders. People with chips on their shoulders are usually patronized to their faces and ignored at all other times. There is no insult in that phrase.

[Riverwind]

God bless Canada is only insulting to Canadians with a religious chip on their shoulders. People with chips on their shoulders are usually patronized to their faces and ignored at all other times. There is no insult in that phrase.

Please answer the question: how would you feel if the PM starting ending his speeches with 'May the light of Allah shine on Canada'?

[Argus]

I would presume it's a wish for Canada's good health from a very religious man. You have a problem with religious people wishing Canada well?

Would you have a problem if he started running around saying 'Allah Bless Canada'?

Yeah, because Islam is a foreign religion with foreign values.

[sharkman]

God bless Canada is only insulting to Canadians with a religious chip on their shoulders. People with chips on their shoulders are usually patronized to their faces and ignored at all other times. There is no insult in that phrase.

Please answer the question: how would you feel if the PM starting ending his speeches with 'May the light of Allah shine on Canada'?

The answer is this is a country with a religious background. That background happens to be Christian. If a PM uses a quaint expression that includes the religious tradition of a country, it is no big deal, except for those with the above mentioned chip.

For a PM to ask Allah's blessing, he would have to be a Muslim. The chances of that happening are slim and none. Even if it did, I bet he would observe the tradition of the country he's in. Why do people who want to debate something always come up with far out what ifs or use examples that happen to .00001% of the population?