building Chinese cars here in Canada....

[herbie]

SO basically you're against them building cars in Canada and creating jobs that aren't here now, because you don't like China?

I live in a small town with people like that. They'd drive 2 hours and spend $49 for a printer cable at the Big Box store because they didn't "like" one of the partners in our computer store.
They spend $150 a month for Starlink instead of $100 for faster cable or fiber access because they don't "Like" Telus. Or cuz some gamer fanboy told them it was faster and better, cheaper etc

Weren't you all fpr the Enbridge pipeline that would risk and entire watershed, the Inside Passage and once built provide less than half the jobs a single car assembly plant would make?

Edited April 30 by herbie

[LinkSoul60]

1 hour ago, Goddess said:

LOL

They've stolen most of the technologies from other nations, including Canada.  Remember Nortel?

 

White House accuses China of industrial-scale theft of AI technology | Reuters

The trade-offs of innovating in China in times of global technology rivalry | Merics

China's technology theft a massive threat, FBI head warns | 60 Minutes - CBS News

China steals too much US defense tech, says DCSA • The Register

Five Eyes intelligence chiefs warn on China's 'theft' of intellectual property | Reuters

Industrial espionage: How China sneaks out America's technology secrets

China theft of technology is biggest law enforcement threat to US, FBI says | China | The Guardian

How does China steal U.S. intellectual property? - Futurity

 

They don't just steal industrial, defense and AI technologies.  They also stole viruses from Canada and shipped them to Wuhan.  

🙄  and that changes what we've said... how?  I'm sure they also have their anti-US propaganda.

Were you anti-China when Harper was wooing them, or just became so after Carney inked a deal.

[Goddess]

US Senators Moreno and Slotkin have introduced the Connected Vehicle Security Act, which would ban automobiles, parts and vehicle software made in China or in partnership with China from America's market.

Canadian & Mexican drivers take note: it would ban even temporary imports of cars.

Also, more than 70 House Democrats have signed a letter urging Trump to block Chinese automakers.

 

Senators introduce bipartisan bill to ban Chinese vehicles and auto parts

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, herbie said:

SO basically

I hate to argue with you about basic because there's simply is nobody more basic than you on this forum  

 

Quote

you're against them building cars in Canada and creating jobs that aren't here now, because you don't like China?

Who are you even talking to? Nobody at all has said anything like that. Nor are they offering to build cars in Canada, they're often final assembly which is not the same thing

So are you just talking to yourself, or are those pesky voices bothering you again?

[SpankyMcFarland]

I expect China’s global share of auto industry sales to increase progressively over the next few decades. Does anybody disagree with that? 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 5/1/2026 at 12:28 AM, Goddess said:

US Senators Moreno and Slotkin have introduced the Connected Vehicle Security Act, which would ban automobiles, parts and vehicle software made in China or in partnership with China from America's market.

Canadian & Mexican drivers take note: it would ban even temporary imports of cars.

Also, more than 70 House Democrats have signed a letter urging Trump to block Chinese automakers.

 

Senators introduce bipartisan bill to ban Chinese vehicles and auto parts

When I hear Americans complaining about the security risk of Chinese-made products it does raise a similar question which we seem reluctant to ask: are the Yanks snooping on us? In social media and digital services more generally I assume the answer is yes. I’d also like to ask Ms. Slotkin about the security risk posed by the many IDF veterans at Google and Co. and where their loyalty lies. 

Edited May 2 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I expect China’s global share of auto industry sales to increase progressively over the next few decades. Does anybody disagree with that? 

I think that's kind of hard to say. I think in the short term we'll see expansion but right now they're only real in would be through EVS. There's still some market growth available to them around the world with EVS but as we have seen across North America and many other jurisdictions there are limits to how big a piece of the pie Ev's can take with the tech we have today. 

So i think they'll continue to expand over the short term (lets say 5 to 10 years or so) but i think that we can't say much beyond that. Who knows what the next tech will be and whether they'll be positioned for it. 

It may be an interesting double edged sword for them.  Right now they push their weight around because they can deny access to their market, but if they are too successful with car sales and their economy comes to depend on it substantially then others may suddenly have a powerful bargaining chip if they threaten future tariffs or restrictions. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 5/2/2026 at 5:18 AM, CdnFox said:

I think that's kind of hard to say. I think in the short term we'll see expansion but right now they're only real in would be through EVS. There's still some market growth available to them around the world with EVS but as we have seen across North America and many other jurisdictions there are limits to how big a piece of the pie Ev's can take with the tech we have today. 

So i think they'll continue to expand over the short term (lets say 5 to 10 years or so) but i think that we can't say much beyond that. Who knows what the next tech will be and whether they'll be positioned for it. 

It may be an interesting double edged sword for them.  Right now they push their weight around because they can deny access to their market, but if they are too successful with car sales and their economy comes to depend on it substantially then others may suddenly have a powerful bargaining chip if they threaten future tariffs or restrictions. 

My bet is that they will expand because their products are cheaper and better. They’ve learned from the likes of Tesla and Apple and now the tables are turning. Furthermore, there is no shortage of originality in that part of the world. Let’s recall what they invented already:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_inventions

If North America blocks their products it will be bypassed and sidelined as China itself once was.  

Edited May 3 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

My bet is that they will expand because their products are cheaper and better. They’ve learned from the likes of Tesla and Apple and now the tables are turning.

Kind of stole from the lights of Tesla and apple, and that's kind of my point. They're not good at getting ahead on their own, and their products are cheaper but not necessarily better.

That means they can hold their own with anybody and can be a major player in the market but they're not bringing technology to the table that's going to put them leaps and bounds ahead of anyone. And like I say EVS are limited market

I take it you don't actually need me to explain why pointing out the day invented the plow in 3000 BC absolutely asinine to bring up in this conversation and you shouldn't have done it 🙄🙄🙄🙄

Simple fact of the matter is in this day and age right here right now the Chinese are not innovating. The copying and they're producing things inexpensively. Which is fine nobody saying there's anything wrong with that but it will not lead to market dominance because it is inherently reliant on others producing the technology for them to copy.

Someday that may change but that day is not today and it doesn't look like it's going to be tomorrow either.

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

My bet is that they will expand because their products are cheaper and better.

Chinese cars are generally banned from Canada because they can be far below the price of cars made in Canada by the big three.  The typical wage in Canada for an auto worker is $35 an hour or $72,000 per year PLUS benefits.

In China auto workers earn typically $4,000 per year.  I don't know what kind of benefits they receive.  Of course the cost of living is far lower in China than here.  The system works differently so it might be hard to compare.

But the fact is obvious.  They can produce EVs or anything at a fraction of the price of things produced in Canada or the U.S.  

The government regulates what cars are allowed in to Canada from elsewhere to be sold.  This is catering to the auto industry in Canada of course.  In effect, Canadians are forced to pay a very high price for vehicles made in Canada in order that auto workers continue to earn the high wages and benefits they earn.  Many other Canadians do not earn near that kind  of wages and benefits.  That's the problem.  People earning far less are forced to buy these expensive cars made in Canada in order to protect the big three auto companies in Canada.  I have to admit I don't know what the answer is.  It is a conundrum.

Edited May 4 by blackbird

[SpankyMcFarland]

I know nothing about cars but this sounds pretty impressive:

Quote

China is now the center of the world’s automotive industry. And now EVs are becoming standard, the next big thing is ‘intelligentization’. Here’s more on these and other key findings from this year's Beijing Auto Show (a.k.a. Auto China). 

When the world’s largest auto show closed its doors on 3 May, it had welcomed close to 1.3 million visitors, witnessed 181 world premieres, and imprinted a clear message on the global automotive professionals: the center of gravity of their industry has shifted towards China. With 1,451 vehicles and 71 concept cars on display, Auto China offers the most comprehensive snapshot this year of where the industry is, and where it’s heading. As such, the show contained key procurement lessons for global, regional and national fleets alike. 

https://www.globalfleet.com/en/manufacturers/global/features/10-key-takeaways-2026-beijing-auto-show?a=FJA05&t[0]=Chinese OEMs&t[1]=Artificial Intelligence&t[2]=EVs&curl=1

Do we really want to wall ourselves off from all this progress in North America? 

 

Edited May 7 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 5/4/2026 at 3:09 AM, CdnFox said:

Kind of stole from the lights of Tesla and apple, and that's kind of my point. They're not good at getting ahead on their own, and their products are cheaper but not necessarily better.

That means they can hold their own with anybody and can be a major player in the market but they're not bringing technology to the table that's going to put them leaps and bounds ahead of anyone. And like I say EVS are limited market

I take it you don't actually need me to explain why pointing out the day invented the plow in 3000 BC absolutely asinine to bring up in this conversation and you shouldn't have done it 🙄🙄🙄🙄

Simple fact of the matter is in this day and age right here right now the Chinese are not innovating. The copying and they're producing things inexpensively. Which is fine nobody saying there's anything wrong with that but it will not lead to market dominance because it is inherently reliant on others producing the technology for them to copy.

Someday that may change but that day is not today and it doesn't look like it's going to be tomorrow either.

I’m merely trying to show you how inventive China has been, is, and will be. As regards the present, pick up any science journal and look at where the original research papers are coming from these days. I have done that in medicine for years and the weight of achievement coming from China these days is simply undeniable. I’m afraid the notion that people in China aren’t still coming up with original work is wishful thinking that will do us no good at all in North America. 

Copying, learning and adapting occurs with every innovation. Every great scientist and inventor has built on the work of those before them. You should read what the British used to say about shoddy German copies of their industrial products before WWI. There’s a reason Tesla and Apple became so dependent on developing their products in China rather than in any other low income country, like India for example. They could see the depth of talent and expertise that already existed there and the potential for further expansion in the technology. Very few countries indeed could have taken the opportunity Tesla gave them to learn about EV and surpass Tesla itself. 

 

Edited May 7 by SpankyMcFarland

[LinkSoul60]

19 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I know nothing about cars but this sounds pretty impressive:

https://www.globalfleet.com/en/manufacturers/global/features/10-key-takeaways-2026-beijing-auto-show?a=FJA05&t[0]=Chinese OEMs&t[1]=Artificial Intelligence&t[2]=EVs&curl=1

Do we really want to wall ourselves off from all this progress in North America? 

 

Interesting read....  Carney certainly doesn't want to wall ourselves off from this technology in Canada, and will safely assume his auto strategy has a great deal of attention within the NA auto industry, and of course the US administration.  

[CdnFox]

20 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I’m merely trying to show you how inventive China has been, is, and will be.

 

But you failed. All you provided evidence for was how inventive they have been in the past. That much is true that does not however suggest that they are currently innovative in any kind of exceptional way or that they will be although certainly that's possible

But right now they take ideas from other people and utilize the information to allow their industry to produce something at a lower cost. Which means they can never actually get ahead of those people other than perhaps doing the same thing in a slightly more creative fashion which is simply not going to make you a leader

20 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

As regards the present, pick up any science journal and look at where the original research papers are coming from these days

I don't know how to address this more effectively than I already have. Frankly looking at the science journals most of the good work is still coming from other countries besides china and most of the stuff coming out of china is interesting but not translating into actual products

When you actually look at the tech being manufactured it's not china that is inventing the stuff.

20 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Copying, learning and adapting occurs with every innovation

Absolute horse shit.

Well it is always possible to build on other people's work you are trying to suggest that copying learning and adapting is the same as innovation and that is a lie.

The Chinese model currently revolves around the idea of stealing other people's ideas and marketing it in a more effective fashion. That's great but they can't get a head like that, all they can do is keep pace. And even that can be challenging because they're simply are things that they cannot convert into their model.

That is why they're military is behind the times and why you just don't see them coming up with innovative Technologies or ideas, just plays on the same thing that someone else came up with

[herbie]

Quote

They've stolen most of the technologies from other nations, including Canada.

That issue of stealing tech and cultural appropriation was decided and over when "we" stole how to make gunpowder from the Chinese almost 1000 years ago. Anyone's been able to build a car since the 1890s. There's not much to 'copy' just things to add on, parts to redesign and style.

Edited May 8 by herbie

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 5/7/2026 at 10:16 PM, CdnFox said:

But you failed. All you provided evidence for was how inventive they have been in the past. That much is true that does not however suggest that they are currently innovative in any kind of exceptional way or that they will be although certainly that's possible

But right now they take ideas from other people and utilize the information to allow their industry to produce something at a lower cost. Which means they can never actually get ahead of those people other than perhaps doing the same thing in a slightly more creative fashion which is simply not going to make you a leader

I don't know how to address this more effectively than I already have. Frankly looking at the science journals most of the good work is still coming from other countries besides china and most of the stuff coming out of china is interesting but not translating into actual products

When you actually look at the tech being manufactured it's not china that is inventing the stuff.

Absolute horse shit.

Well it is always possible to build on other people's work you are trying to suggest that copying learning and adapting is the same as innovation and that is a lie.

The Chinese model currently revolves around the idea of stealing other people's ideas and marketing it in a more effective fashion. That's great but they can't get a head like that, all they can do is keep pace. And even that can be challenging because they're simply are things that they cannot convert into their model.

That is why they're military is behind the times and why you just don't see them coming up with innovative Technologies or ideas, just plays on the same thing that someone else came up with

I suspect America’s military edge is something nobody should bank on. Military power often lags behind economic expansion. Who feared the US army in the Thirties? Then WWII came along and America’s overwhelming industrial superiority was brought to bear on entirely new military problems. To make matters worse, we’re at an inflection point where drones and cyber are becoming much more important. This minor war with Iran has revealed worrying deficiencies in America’s ability to defend its allies against even the primitive Shahed drones of Iran. The missiles used have often been absurdly expensive and will require rare earth metals to replace them. Where will those scarce resources come from? I’m sure China is doing its sums and figuring out what all this means for Taiwan’s security. 

https://www.politico.com/news/2026/04/09/middle-east-war-weapons-china-00864622

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I suspect America’s military edge is something nobody should bank on. Military power often lags behind economic expansion. Who feared the US army in the Thirties? Then WWII came along and America’s overwhelming industrial superiority was brought to bear on entirely new military problems. To make matters worse, we’re at an inflection point where drones and cyber are becoming much more important. This minor war with Iran has revealed worrying deficiencies in America’s ability to defend its allies against even the primitive Shahed drones of Iran. The missiles used have often been absurdly expensive and will require rare earth metals to replace them. Where will those scarce resources come from? I’m sure China is doing its sums and figuring out what all this means for Taiwan’s security. 

https://www.politico.com/news/2026/04/09/middle-east-war-weapons-china-00864622

The world always changes, once upon a time, Britannia ruled the waves.  But, I think a lot of things would have to change before china was in a strong position militarily. 

Iran is more of an interesting study in the role politics plays in war rather than technology. If the us truly put it's back into it, iran would have fallen in weeks, but a reluctance to fully commit led to a bit of a half hearted 'war' instead, 

In ukraine we've seen how more advanced tech (tho often not more expensive) can hold off large numbers of inferior weapons.  The russians had bad gear and the nato gear (combined with strong innovation) wrecked their stuff faster than they could build.  But we've also seen the limitations.  The very clever use of things like drones has not allowed ukraine to win either, 

The day may well come when china starts to produce truly leading edge tech and military hardware but they're not quite there yet. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

There’s a pattern here. Of course, China is selling more of its own cars internally but it’s exporting like hell too including to developing countries:

 

 

[Barquentine]

On 4/30/2026 at 8:28 PM, Goddess said:

US Senators Moreno and Slotkin have introduced the Connected Vehicle Security Act, which would ban automobiles, parts and vehicle software made in China or in partnership with China from America's market.

Canadian & Mexican drivers take note: it would ban even temporary imports of cars.

Also, more than 70 House Democrats have signed a letter urging Trump to block Chinese automakers.

So much for capitalism and the free market.

But Chinese cars will get into the US eventually. Even the Orange Ass likes the idea:

https://www.nbcnews.com/world/asia/chinese-evs-take-world-storm-united-states-rcna344680
"Wang said he favored greater Chinese investment in the U.S. because “greater competition generally improves product quality as well as the price points.” He pointed to the improvements in American cars that resulted from Japanese competition and investment in the 1980s.

Trump has expressed openness to the idea.

“If they want to come in and build a plant and hire you and hire your friends and your neighbors, that’s great, I love that,” he said in January. “Let China come in.”

And:

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/chinese-evs-made-usa#
"Certainly, Ford has been relatively forward-leaning in seeking to integrate Chinese technology. The company, whose CEO Jim Farley personally drives a Xiaomi EV, has partnered with battery giant CATL to license and manufacture lower-cost lithium iron phosphate batteries in Michigan. This partnership was recently extended to include energy storage batteries."

 

Edited May 24 by Barquentine
adding text

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Barquentine said:

So much for capitalism and the free market.

 

Chinese cars are very heavily subsidized by the state.  There's no "free market" there.  Swing and a miss 

1 hour ago, Barquentine said:

But Chinese cars will get into the US eventually. Even the Orange Ass likes the idea:

Well if you actually read what you posted he doesn't want Chinese cars. He wants american manufactured cars and he's open to china doing manufacturing in America. Not quite the same thing.

If china wants to open a vehicle manufacturing plant and hire Americans to build cars for American consumption like Kia or toyota currently does then of course he's fine with it. Why wouldn't he be. we would be too. But he's been clear that you will not allow important vehicles les from china.

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 5/7/2026 at 10:16 PM, CdnFox said:

But you failed. All you provided evidence for was how inventive they have been in the past. That much is true that does not however suggest that they are currently innovative in any kind of exceptional way or that they will be although certainly that's possible

But right now they take ideas from other people and utilize the information to allow their industry to produce something at a lower cost. Which means they can never actually get ahead of those people other than perhaps doing the same thing in a slightly more creative fashion which is simply not going to make you a leader

I don't know how to address this more effectively than I already have. Frankly looking at the science journals most of the good work is still coming from other countries besides china and most of the stuff coming out of china is interesting but not translating into actual products

When you actually look at the tech being manufactured it's not china that is inventing the stuff.

Absolute horse shit.

Well it is always possible to build on other people's work you are trying to suggest that copying learning and adapting is the same as innovation and that is a lie.

The Chinese model currently revolves around the idea of stealing other people's ideas and marketing it in a more effective fashion. That's great but they can't get a head like that, all they can do is keep pace. And even that can be challenging because they're simply are things that they cannot convert into their model.

That is why they're military is behind the times and why you just don't see them coming up with innovative Technologies or ideas, just plays on the same thing that someone else came up with

As I say, talk to anyone with real expertise in a particular area, eg, scientists, engineers, classical musicians. They are going to tell you the same story: China is where it’s at. I’m afraid that’s how things are. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 5/12/2026 at 5:41 PM, CdnFox said:

In ukraine we've seen how more advanced tech (tho often not more expensive) can hold off large numbers of inferior weapons.  The russians had bad gear and the nato gear (combined with strong innovation) wrecked their stuff faster than they could build.  But we've also seen the limitations.  The very clever use of things like drones has not allowed ukraine to win either, 

The day may well come when china starts to produce truly leading edge tech and military hardware but they're not quite there yet. 

Both sides in that war are using Chinese drone technology. Look at what Hezbollah are doing with ultra-cheap FPV drones in Lebanon. Near future wars will also use tech that is mass produced and inexpensive. America is woefully unprepared for this revolution as many serious people on the right have already noticed. Its model is focused on tech superiority rather than volume and is ruinously expensive.
 

 

Edited May 31 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

As I say, talk to anyone with real expertise in a particular area, eg, scientists, engineers, classical musicians. They are going to tell you the same story: China is where it’s at. I’m afraid that’s how things are. 

Nobody says that. And I have real expertise in a number of areas.

That isn't to say china doesn't do some good work or doesn't innovate but they're not leading the pack in anything. They are experts at  copying.

Sorry kid but that really is where things are. Might be different someday but not today

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Both sides in that war are using Chinese drone technology.
 

 

No they're using some components made in china but china didn't invent those components. And Ukraine at least has moved away from that entirely and is making their own. It's like claiming that because iPhone components are made in china that china invented the iPhone. That's not how it works

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Look at what Hezbollah are doing with ultra-cheap FPV drones in Lebanon.

And? Are you now claiming china invented drones? Sorry but they didn't.  Funny enough it was actually an ex israeli military guy living in the us who designed and produced the first cheap military drone, and commercial civilian drones 

Draganfly made the very first quadcopter which would become what we know as drones today -  A canadian company. 

Chinese take what other people do and find ways to do the same thing cheaper and in higher volume. that's it. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

No they're using some components made in china but china didn't invent those components. And Ukraine at least has moved away from that entirely and is making their own. It's like claiming that because iPhone components are made in china that china invented the iPhone. That's not how it works

And? Are you now claiming china invented drones? Sorry but they didn't.  Funny enough it was actually an ex israeli military guy living in the us who designed and produced the first cheap military drone, and commercial civilian drones 

Draganfly made the very first quadcopter which would become what we know as drones today -  A canadian company. 

Chinese take what other people do and find ways to do the same thing cheaper and in higher volume. that's it. 

But that’s a huge deal. What matters is what China can do now with drones and similar technology and what they will be able to do in coming decades. Quantity and cost are crucial in contests between nations. Britain pioneered the Industrial Revolution but was overtaken by other countries who copied its innovations. More recently, they were the leaders in the science around CT and MRI and where are they now? Being the first to invent something doesn’t entitle a country to anything in the future. 

Edited May 31 by SpankyMcFarland