Suspected Terrorists Arrested in Toronto

kimmy · June 6, 2006

I'm no scare monger and I'm trying to be sceptical but no one can fabricate evidence like this. Will the Left now say that this "camp" was an elaborate fabrication of the RCMP?

I checked in at Babble yesterday to get a feel for how some of the lefties are taking this, and based on what I saw they're not taking it very well.

People there are clinging for dear life to the "sting operation". Spend a few minutes at Babble and you'll be left with the impression that the RCMP must have picked 17 brown-skinned people at random and persuaded them to buy 3 tons of ammonium nitrate. And you'll read people bandying about the word "entrapment" as if they had a clue what the legal definition of the term is. You'll even find people convinced that this bit of police-work was a neo-con frame-up devised by Harper himself.

"The Left," generally speaking, has a great deal of emotional investment in the premise that the threat is a fictional creation of "neo-con" interests. And to try to protect their emotional investment, they'll grasp at any straw to try to defend that premise.

-If CSIS has been monitoring this group for 2 years, it was probably racial profiling.

-If this group tried to buy 3 tons of fertilizer, then the RCMP must have "entrapped" them into doing so.

-If this group has a wilderness retreat, it's probably because they're nature enthusiasts.

-If this farmer is claiming he heard machineguns being fired at the retreat, he's probably a racist who is lying because wants the brown-people away from his land.

-If there were test-explosions of home-made explosives, it was probably a science experiment, like model rocketry or the model volcano that erupts with fake lava.

It probably all makes sense. They're probably just horticultural enthisiasts who wanted to use the 3 tons of fertilizer to grow some super crops at their wilderness getaway. The sound of machinegun fire was probably just flatulent geese or something.

-k

Rue · June 6, 2006

A random thought...
Terrorist seems to be the catch all word for criminals who are of muslim stereotypical appearance these days. If the people who were arrested are from Canada and have no outside affiliation, why are they terrorists rather than gang members, organised criminals, or merely thugs? Do I smell witch hunt or possible propaganda campaign? Perhaps if they are deemed terrorists, then certain laws prevail that are not accessable otherwise for prosecutorial purposes.

I see your valid point but I think its not accurate for this reason; if the "gang" or "group" is involved in acts of a political nature, and the political nature of those acts is to use violence as an expression of their political opinions, then both the law and all of us are correct to define it not just as crimes but as political crimes or terrorism. If this group or gangs is involved in violent activities but not to promote a specific political ideology and use violence to scare people into agreeing with this type of ideology, i.e., are doing it solely for financial reasons or non political reasons, and they are breaking the law, then I would agree with you.

That said, you raise a point though. When we portray or depict terrorist or gang members, we tend to emphasize their ethnicity or religious type. In the case of say organized crime in Toronto, the press now is very careful trying not to depict many gang mambers as "Jamaicans" although they snidely still slide it they were "born' in Jamaica. I agree in such instances, if someone is home grown, their nationality and ethnicity is not relevant unless it helps us understand in a constructive way what is happening in their particular community to cause it. So me, I have no problem with it if it is done to promote something positive as oppposed to promote a negative stereotype.

As for dealing with terrorists, yes it is important to distinguish home grown Canadian ones from oversees ones and from what I gather the media has been pretty clear to mention its home grown.

Now that brings us to the next topic. How do you fairly describe suspected terrorists who claim to be Muslim and doing it in the name of Islam. Well the press simply uses the word Muslim terrorist. I suppose it would be politically proper to say Muslim quoting terrorist as opposed to Muslim terrorist.

I agree with you that the average guy on the street continually seeing the word Muslim and terrorist linked together is basically being conditioned to think all Muslims are terrorists. Yah this is what they call blow back in the business. Every time a person who is a terrorist claims to be a Muslim, all Muslims are lumped into it.

This is why young black men who do nothing wrong other then being together are immediately suspected of selling drugs or being up to no good. This is why some people who see a police officer in a uniform immediately assume they are brutal pigs. This is why some people who talk about Jews, immediately assume they are Zionists and hate Arabs.

We generalize and stereotype all the time. Since we are bombarded with so much info, our minds try simplify the chaos and sometimes when we stereotype we don't even know we are doing it, or do it for benevolent reasons not evil or bigoted ones.

Your pt. though remains. How do we avoid disparaging all Mulsims when talking about this topic. All I know is for me, I do it by assuring Muslims when I can, that they do not have to be afraid to speak out against terrorism or think Canadians will hate them because of the isolated acts of some nasty idiots.

Yah some idiot smashed their Mosque. Synagogues and Churches have been vandalized too. I think in such cases, religious leaders from all religious movements have and to stand with each other and codemn such an act and say an attack on any one house of God, is an attack on them all. I also think most decent people feel the same way.

I do think however, we all should not be afraid to say these people are referring to Islam and it flows from

what they may have been taught in mosques or from certain mullahs or muftis or elders. If that is the case it has to be understood.

Interestingly the Muslim community asked for funding from the feds to do a study on how they could better understand what causes Muslims in Canada to become violent or extremist but were turned down.

Maybe its not up to the feds to fund such a project maybe its their responsibility but I think we all have the responsibility to speak out against terrorism and just try understand as we speak out against it, it does not justify hating a whole group of people because some in their midst are fools.

GostHacked · June 6, 2006

- freeing 31 million people in Afganistan. Allowing them the opportunity to decide their own fate.

Yes indeed, just like under the Tailban, Sharia Law is the law of the land. Opium production is the highest it has ever been.

- freeing 25 million in Iraq. Allowinfg them the opportunity to decide their own fate.

If Afghanistan is a bennhmark in this war on terror then I can suspect Iraq to 'turn around'

- minimalizing the repressive taliban.

Taliban making more attacks in recent months in Afhanistan *worse since the invasion*

- minimalizing the repressive taliban.

Not sure how that one is accomplished. They may be out of power, but they still have a full head of steam.

- disrupting Al Queda and their ability to conduct terrorist attacks.

Well I hope this is true. But I doubt we put a kink in the armour at all.

- uniting over 90 countries world wide in a unified counter terrorism effort

Of that, how many countries are supplying military support compared to those countries just giving the thumbs up, for they can't really do crap to help the fight.

- providing the support Saudi Arabia required so they could conduct their own house cleaning and anti Al Queda operations within the kingdom.

Actually we should be cleaning the Saudi's out, remember 9/11? Most of the pilots/hijackers were Sauds, a couple in the air force or working commercial flights. But yet Iraq was invaded. (can't invade a country that has an good deal to sell oil to the US, so the Sauds are friends even though they are just as bad as the Taliban)

Some of your statements I cannot argue against.

- begun the slow transformation of the ME away from repression to human rights and choice for people

And yet the leaders of the War on Terrorism (the US and the UK) both are heading towards the police state, with cameras everywhere, legislation to overrule basic constitutional rights in essence repressing their OWN people for the sake of security from terrorism. Freeing foreigners enslaving the locals. (Patrio Act, NSA spyprogram ect) The UK is way ahead in this aspect too. They are the police state.

GostHacked · June 6, 2006

A random thought...

Terrorist seems to be the catch all word for criminals who are of muslim stereotypical appearance these days. If the people who were arrested are from Canada and have no outside affiliation, why are they terrorists rather than gang members, organised criminals, or merely thugs? Do I smell witch hunt or possible propaganda campaign? Perhaps if they are deemed terrorists, then certain laws prevail that are not accessable otherwise for prosecutorial purposes.

uh, the intention of destroying public targets for political reasons probably has something to do with it, maybe?

If somebody formulates a plan to blow up the Toronto Stock Exchange (source) they're a terrorist.

-k

Well one thing I am noticing is the difference in reporting from different sources. From that article the Parliment in Ottawa was NOT a target, yet other papers claim that it was? Can we get a solid straight answer? IThat is the first article I have read that talks about the TSX as a target.

August1991 · June 6, 2006

"The Left," generally speaking, has a great deal of emotional investment in the premise that the threat is a fictional creation of "neo-con" interests. And to try to protect their emotional investment, they'll grasp at any straw to try to defend that premise.

There are some valid points in the Left view of these arrests.

The RCMP was less than forthcoming about the fertilizer at the initial press conference and it is still not clear if the stuff was ever delivered or where it was delivered. They did show a pistol, a cellphone with wires and a door with holes - whatever that means.

The RCMP has been big on the international connections and how they used sophisticated Internet snooping to discover this terrorist cell. In fact however, it appears this group is associated with a mosque well-known to CSIS. The group itself has links to Mohammed Manjoub who has been held controversially under a CSIS security certificate since 2000 (I believe).

The impression is that this group came out of nowhere and planned these attacks but in fact the group was well-known before.

Your link above states that the target was a bomb in downtown Toronto and a shooting spree somewhere. But again, on what basis is this claim made?

So at first, I was willing to consider that CSIS and the RCMP were seeking a way to "get these guys" by some kind of sting operation. The latest details hardly fit with that scenario however. IMV, the strongest evidence so far is the story about the "terrorist camp" and the comings and goings from the older man's house. The fertilizer should be damning evidence when it's finally presented.

And if anyone talked to Mr. Jamal's neighbours, they would relate a similar story. From her vantage across the street from Mr. Jamal's bungalow, Kim Bastarache could see all the young men filing in and out of the house. She always had suspicions about Mr. Jamal -- he rarely spoke or smiled at his non-Muslim neighbours -- and when she saw a cardboard box leaning against his house with an illustration of a rifle on the side of it, she became even more alarmed.

G & M

As a minimum, we appear to have some young kids influenced with wild ideas. If they fire guns at a cottage, listen to radical speeches in a mosque and hang out at an older guy's house, they are hardly "innocent victims" of a sting operation.

But all this evidence is to be presented in court. If the RCMP/CSIS have a case, then it will have to withstand judicial scrutiny. (I'm a little bothered by the way these details are leaking out. It seems to me the RCMP should have held a press conference, explained what was going on and then passed it off to the Crown Attorneys. I guess the media pressure is intense.)

----

You're right about the Left's investment to having these guys found innocent. It seems strange and sad in a way. Just like the Left's position that the Danish cartoons were offensive and shouldn't be published.

Well, here's another irony. All the right wing blogs citing The Toronto Star and saying how good its coverage is.

Temagami Scourge · June 6, 2006

Please Mr. terrorist...don't behead my Prime Minister....

CBC news

August1991 · June 6, 2006

"My client's alleged to have been part of a plot to blow up Parliament Buildings in Canada, storm the CBC, take over the CBC, as well as, among other things, behead the prime minister," Batasar said.

That's the defense lawyer speaking.

God help us all if this thing turns into a media circus.

----

Something I have seen nowhere. Where's the money? Who financed these training camps, fertilizer bombs, truck rentals and so on. Money was a key fact in the Sept 2001 attacks and Atta and the others were well financed.

The RCMP has so far said nothing about financing but surely these guys were not paying for this themselves.

Machinations · June 6, 2006

Charles Anthony

If these averted terrorist plots are not a justification for beefing up the Canadian military, I do not know what is!

Er...this was good old fashined police work in action. Beefing up the military would do sweet F.A.

killjoy:

Not for nothing but a lot of people do base the idea of terror attacks against Canada within the context of our involvement in Afghanistan and 9/11...ie. if we weren't there this wouldn't have happened.
Does anyone remeber Ressam and his crew, who were planning a terrorist attack in Jewish Montreal? In 1999, BTW, before 911 or Afghanistan. The terrorists were trained there, however.

Afghanistan IS our problem. If the Taliban return, and are allowed to set up more training camps, who do you think will be number 2 or 3 on their list of targets? Even if we did leave now?

These suspects were homegrown. The London bombers were homegrown. Ditto Madrid. Foreign terror networks aren't the problem.

Anyway, I think this undermines one of the fundamental precepts of the "war on terror": that we must fight "them" over "there" so we don't have to do it here. Well, as these arrests and other recent successful attacks have shown, "they" are here already. The conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq appear to be serving as rallying points, current examples of the western war against Islam that is central to the radical ideology which uses terrorism as its weapon of choice. IOW the "war on terror" is ultimately counterproductive.

Hey BD,

Any irony for you in the idea that these guys had their communications monitored? Just asking.

No irony at all, if it was done LEGALLY. You know, like, getting a warrant and stuff? Oh, silly me, they DID that. What's the fuss about, again?

Seriously now.

Edit:

Martin Rudner, director of the Canadian Centre of Intelligence and Security Studies at Carleton University, said the surveillance of the Toronto cell shows that it is possible to detect terrorist cells using a system that requires the equivalent of a search warrant.
Canadian officials had to obtain permission from a threat-review committee before investigating Canadian citizens, he said. As a result, he said, all the information collected should be usable in court.

Link to above quoted article

Johnny Utah · June 6, 2006

"My client's alleged to have been part of a plot to blow up Parliament Buildings in Canada, storm the CBC, take over the CBC, as well as, among other things, behead the prime minister," Batasar said.
That's the defense lawyer speaking.
God help us all if this thing turns into a media circus.

----

Something I have seen nowhere. Where's the money? Who financed these training camps, fertilizer bombs, truck rentals and so on. Money was a key fact in the Sept 2001 attacks and Atta and the others were well financed.

The RCMP has so far said nothing about financing but surely these guys were not paying for this themselves.

We will know all those details in time as the investigation is still on going as there could still be more arrests. The funding could have come from many areas, false charities to direct funding from somewhere in the Middle east..

Black Dog · June 6, 2006

Hey BD,
Any irony for you in the idea that these guys had their communications monitored? Just asking.

No.

KK:

Terrorists domestic and otherwise are not simply 'getting even' for some imagined or real slight. They are working towards the Caliphate. Minimalize the overall movement and others will not join it as it will be a waste of time.

There's no heterogenous terrorist orthodoxy here, no organized movement necessarily. Sometimes people just want to blow things up for some slight, real or imagined. The other major problem with your theory is that it depends entirely on "our" actions being interpreted in the way we intend them to be. That's a huge assumption to make.

geoffrey · June 7, 2006

Terrorists domestic and otherwise are not simply 'getting even' for some imagined or real slight. They are working towards the Caliphate. Minimalize the overall movement and others will not join it as it will be a waste of time.

There's no heterogenous terrorist orthodoxy here, no organized movement necessarily. Sometimes people just want to blow things up for some slight, real or imagined. The other major problem with your theory is that it depends entirely on "our" actions being interpreted in the way we intend them to be. That's a huge assumption to make.

BD is right here, there isn't an organized movement, there couldn't be. There is though, a bit of the copycat effect. Impressionable young Muslims are seeing their brothers blow themselves up, and commit terrorist acts against 'the Man'. They then read some Koran that encourages (hold on here Liberals, I'm not saying that Islam is violent, my Bible is just as violent) this behavior without reading the things that say violence is wrong.

Look at it as a bunch of teenagers, with some bad role models, dangerous psedo-religious inspiration and are frustrated with the west.

Not that I feel sorry for them, they all need to be jailed or worse, but to say that there is some global conspiracy of Muslims hunting us down? Unlikely, they aren't that organized.

I do agree with those that say that these people hate us for who we are, not what we do. Just like punks and goths hate mainstream society, they just don't have the other aspects leading them over the edge.

I've got a lot of faith in CSIS for such a hands down great investigation, bring in alot of these people in one swoop. And they are dealing with it the right way, seeing it as individual crazies, instead of an organized faction.

killjoy · June 7, 2006

Look at it as a bunch of teenagers, with some bad role models, dangerous psedo-religious inspiration and are frustrated with the west.

Rage Against The Machine?

j/k

.

August1991 · June 7, 2006

Denial is a river in Pakistan:

One report says, one of the accused is going to be charged with having gone to Pakistan to receive “jihadists training,” a claim dismissed as preposterous by an Imam familiar with the accused.
The fact that the entire thing was an elaborate sting operation staged by the Canadian police and security agencies, with help from their American counterparts, continues to be not only downplayed in the Canadian and US press but barely even mentioned. The line between a sting operation and entrapment is a thin one.

According to Toronto Star, “Lawyers representing the accused and relatives say they’re eager to hear what police have to support their claims - some already vowing to sue the government for their clients’ ruined reputation if evidence doesn’t support the sensational claims now being made. Many are pointing to the 2003 immigration-RCMP investigation known as Project Thread where a group of foreign students from Pakistan and one from India were held on alleged immigration violations and classified at one of their immigration hearings as an ‘Al Qaeda sleeper cell.’ The security allegations were later dropped and the students deported home, where they said they had difficulty shaking the stigma of being identified as terrorist suspects.”

Pakistan Daily Times

August1991 · June 7, 2006

I haven't seen this anywhere.

This is the wife of the ringleader, Qayyum Jamal, in a deposition filed in May 2000 to the Toronto School Board:

I am Cheryfa MacAulay Jamal, and I am here as a member of the Toronto District Muslim Education Assembly, and I’d like to address 2 particular issues pertinent to the Muslim community regarding the Human Rights Policy.
According to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: Article 26, Section 3 states:

"Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that should be given to their children."

Therefore it is the right of any parent to demand that if there are to be curricular materials promoting homosexual or bisexual lifestyles, or sexual promiscuity (such as sexual relations outside of marriage) as acceptable choices in human behaviour, then these classes must be announced within a reasonable amount of time and in all languages pertinent to the multicultural population of each individual school district. Parents have the RIGHT to informed choice in the material being taught to and graded upon their children, especially those parents who fall under the protection of the Policy’s definition of Creed...

....

DRESS CODE

In consultation with students, parents and staff, each school community should adopt a dress code, which may include a school uniform. In doing so, schools should recognize that:

Some styles of dress which conceal identity should be considered a safety concern;

I have great concern over this statement because it seems to me to be specifically targeting the women of the Muslim Religion who choose to follow the Sunnah of covering their face outside of their homes and in the company of non-relative males.

Link

I wonder if the Progressive Left will want to defend this group's cause now. She apparently objects to gays and feminism.

Something else too. She certainly seems to know how to use the bureaucracy to advance a cause.

Black Dog · June 7, 2006

I wonder if the Progressive Left will want to defend this group's cause now.

Just once, August, I'd like to see this calumny accompanied by an example.

August1991 · June 7, 2006

I wonder if the Progressive Left will want to defend this group's cause now.

Just once, August, I'd like to see this calumny accompanied by an example.

Agreed. "Cause" is too strong a word by one letter. I should have written "case".

Charles Anthony · June 7, 2006

Quoting the wife of the ringleader, Qayyum Jamal,

Parents have the RIGHT to informed choice in the material being taught to and graded upon their children, especially those parents who fall under the protection of the Policy’s definition of Creed...

There is nothing wrong with her position. Many parents of different cultures have the same objections.

However, if she does not like the choices in the material being taught, the solution is simple: she can take her child out of that school and go somewhere else, like everybody else.

If she can not find the school that she wants the public system, she go to a private school.

If she does not find a private school that she wants, she can home-school.

Unfortunately, it seems that her children's "home-schooling" led them to criminal charges.

I wonder what she has to say about that!

kimmy · June 7, 2006

"My client's alleged to have been part of a plot to blow up Parliament Buildings in Canada, storm the CBC, take over the CBC, as well as, among other things, behead the prime minister," Batasar said.
That's the defense lawyer speaking.
God help us all if this thing turns into a media circus.

Perhaps he hopes to discredit the charges by making the allegations sound ridiculous or over the top. However, in the context, it's not ridiculous or over the top in the least. Should I check in on Babble to see whether they're giggling in delight at the notion of Harper being beheaded?

Something I have seen nowhere. Where's the money? Who financed these training camps, fertilizer bombs, truck rentals and so on. Money was a key fact in the Sept 2001 attacks and Atta and the others were well financed.
The RCMP has so far said nothing about financing but surely these guys were not paying for this themselves.

Renting a few vans is hardly out of reach for the average Canadian. The fertilizer is alleged to have cost $2000 (source) which I doubt required any extraordinary financing. I don't know how much a remote piece of land in Ontario costs. I do know that there are pieces of land in some parts of Alberta that are very inexpensive because they're unsuitable for any agricultural purpose and undesirable for most recreational purposes. What else? Some smuggled guns, some paintball guns, and some car trips out of town...

Why did the September 11 attacks require such extensive financing? Because they had to pay for housing and living expenses of 19 foreigners in the United States for months or years beforehand, they had to pay for flight school tuitions, and extensive travel arrangements.

Where's the comparable expense in this alleged plan? The suspects are Canadians, who either have jobs or live with their parents. Nothing I've read so far suggests that the money required would be out of reach to a group of ordinary Canadians, which this (aside from their intentions) apparently was.

-k

GostHacked · June 7, 2006

I wonder if the Progressive Left will want to defend this group's cause now. She apparently objects to gays and feminism.

I know some straight white men who think the same way in that regards. Heck I know people from all walks of life that think that way. I really don't see the difference.

Renting a few vans is hardly out of reach for the average Canadian. The fertilizer is alleged to have cost $2000 (source) which I doubt required any extraordinary financing. I don't know how much a remote piece of land in Ontario costs. I do know that there are pieces of land in some parts of Alberta that are very inexpensive because they're unsuitable for any agricultural purpose and undesirable for most recreational purposes. What else? Some smuggled guns, some paintball guns, and some car trips out of town...

Good points.

GostHacked · June 7, 2006

To add to this whole mess, I made a prediction and it kind of came true.

Ever since the conservatives took over (I mentioned this in another thread) there has been a pr blitz on our military. Soon after they got in office, on tv and in the other media, the ads for the military increased dramaticly. Can't recall the last time CBC played an canadian Forces commercial every break. Heck I was watching a hockey game with friends and some of them commented the same thing. Ever commercial break there was an ad for our military. This was about 2 months ago now.

Since I read the news regularly I noticed this increase almost right away. Also alot of PR in the media and in Parliment regarding our mission in Afghanistan. Personaly I was thinking, ok this is gearing up for something. I had said to a few friends that there will be an attack soon just because of the increase in PR. NAHHH they said.

This 'plot' does not surprise me at all to tell you the truth. Nothing about this surprises me at all.

Just the couple weeks leading up to this plot, and after the non debate about Afghanistan, there also has been alot of exposure of the mission in Afghanistan, notice how our soldiers are not frequently being targeted. I never saw anything like this under the Liberals (now before you start the Libs are bad yada yada yada, put it aside, it is not what I am getting at here) Daily basis now with CBC and CTV 'Canadian soldiers were involved in a 'roadside bomb, insurgent fire, abducted soldiers'

I will guess that under the Liberal rule there was just not alot of PR regarding the military. I have bet a couple of you have noticed this trend as well.

So in the future you will see.

- more canadian soldiers dying as reported by the press(there will be more this year than the previous 3 years)

- more uncovered 'sleeper cells' in Canada

- more muslim backlash

- increased number of police on the streets.

- more ties to international terrorism.

- ramp up in violence overall in certain cities.

- an actuall attack that will succeed.

I hope I am wrong on all these, but what I see, makes me think I am gonna be real sad when this comes true.

Quick Edit here : Also I find it odd that there has been rarely if any mention of Osama Bin Laden since this plot was uncovered.

Johnny Utah · June 7, 2006

To add to this whole mess, I made a prediction and it kind of came true.
Ever since the conservatives took over (I mentioned this in another thread) there has been a pr blitz on our military. Soon after they got in office, on tv and in the other media, the ads for the military increased dramaticly. Can't recall the last time CBC played an canadian Forces commercial every break. Heck I was watching a hockey game with friends and some of them commented the same thing. Ever commercial break there was an ad for our military. This was about 2 months ago now.

Since I read the news regularly I noticed this increase almost right away. Also alot of PR in the media and in Parliment regarding our mission in Afghanistan. Personaly I was thinking, ok this is gearing up for something. I had said to a few friends that there will be an attack soon just because of the increase in PR. NAHHH they said.

This 'plot' does not surprise me at all to tell you the truth. Nothing about this surprises me at all.

Just the couple weeks leading up to this plot, and after the non debate about Afghanistan, there also has been alot of exposure of the mission in Afghanistan, notice how our soldiers are not frequently being targeted. I never saw anything like this under the Liberals (now before you start the Libs are bad yada yada yada, put it aside, it is not what I am getting at here) Daily basis now with CBC and CTV 'Canadian soldiers were involved in a 'roadside bomb, insurgent fire, abducted soldiers'

I will guess that under the Liberal rule there was just not alot of PR regarding the military. I have bet a couple of you have noticed this trend as well.

So in the future you will see.

- more canadian soldiers dying as reported by the press(there will be more this year than the previous 3 years)

- more uncovered 'sleeper cells' in Canada

- more muslim backlash

- increased number of police on the streets.

- more ties to international terrorism.

- ramp up in violence overall in certain cities.

- an actuall attack that will succeed.

I hope I am wrong on all these, but what I see, makes me think I am gonna be real sad when this comes true.

Quick Edit here : Also I find it odd that there has been rarely if any mention of Osama Bin Laden since this plot was uncovered.

So are you saying some Canadians might say this plot was a setup of a Conservative agenda? Which would be fear mongering, propaganda? I have read those claims elsewhere..

I think the reason we are seeing all the points you made is the Conservatives are acknowledging the threat of Terrorism against Canada is real while the Liberals hid it away as if it never existed..

As for the attacks on Muslims in Canada doesn't the media have some responsibility in that? The media does influence even the stupid who would attack a Mosque or a Muslim on the street..

The threat of beheading Prime Minister Harper alone is a scary thought as it was an attempt to kill Canada's Leader regardless of what party he's from..

Black Dog · June 7, 2006

The threat of beheading Prime Minister Harper alone is a scary thought as it was an attempt to kill Canada's Leader regardless of what party he's from

That allegation (along with so many of the others that have been mentoned) underlines the ridiculousness of this plot and makes it clear that this is not some hardcore, Al-Qaeda sleeper cell, but a bunch of bored suburban youths roped into a loopy ideology by someone who is apparently something of a wingnut in his own community.

If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones.

This is not quite the image that the government and police are portraying of the 17. They paint the suspects as part of an efficiently sinister conspiracy devoted, in Harper's words, to destroying "freedom, democracy and the rule of law."
As such, the arrests last week come at convenient time for the Harper government. A rise in the public's fear quotient could increase popular support for his decision to keep Canadian troops in Afghanistan another two years to wage war against Taliban and other insurgents.

kimmy · June 7, 2006

A few points, Gost:

Ever since the conservatives took over (I mentioned this in another thread) there has been a pr blitz on our military. Soon after they got in office, on tv and in the other media, the ads for the military increased dramaticly. Can't recall the last time CBC played an canadian Forces commercial every break. Heck I was watching a hockey game with friends and some of them commented the same thing. Ever commercial break there was an ad for our military. This was about 2 months ago now.

The Canadian military has had a difficult time recruiting for years. They did advertise regularly under the Liberals as well. I would not be surprised if they have advertised more since Harper took over, though, as stepping up recruitment was a part of the Conservatives' campaign platform of spiffing up the military. (as are the planned purchases of equipment, and I believe better wages and living conditions for members of the military as well.) The Conservatives have never made a secret of their intention of making the military a higher spending priority than it was under the Liberals.

Just the couple weeks leading up to this plot, and after the non debate about Afghanistan, there also has been alot of exposure of the mission in Afghanistan, notice how our soldiers are not frequently being targeted. I never saw anything like this under the Liberals (now before you start the Libs are bad yada yada yada, put it aside, it is not what I am getting at here) Daily basis now with CBC and CTV 'Canadian soldiers were involved in a 'roadside bomb, insurgent fire, abducted soldiers'

You're right that the troops have consistently been in more danger in the past few months than they were during the Liberals' time in office. This is because Canada's military has taken on a more front-line role in Afghanistan in recent months. However, this was a decision made well before the election. I believe Canada's stepped up operations in Afghanistan began in late 2005, and were a result of a commitment we made to our allies in the region.

Quick Edit here : Also I find it odd that there has been rarely if any mention of Osama Bin Laden since this plot was uncovered.

Osama Bin Laden hadn't been much mentioned in the few months before, either. Why would that change since the arrests? It's been made clear that this group had no connection with Al Qaeda.

-k

kimmy · June 7, 2006

The fact that the entire thing was an elaborate sting operation staged by the Canadian police and security agencies, with help from their American counterparts, continues to be not only downplayed in the Canadian and US press but barely even mentioned. The line between a sting operation and entrapment is a thin one.

Pakistan Daily Times

The Pakistan Daily Times is obviously getting their legal advice from Rabble. :lol:

-k

killjoy · June 7, 2006

That allegation (along with so many of the others that have been mentoned) underlines the ridiculousness of this plot and makes it clear that this is not some hardcore, Al-Qaeda sleeper cell, but a bunch of bored suburban youths roped into a loopy ideology by someone who is apparently something of a wingnut in his own community.
If these guys are terrorists, they aren't very good ones.

This highlights a train of thinking that I see everywhere in Canada now: "It didn't happen, so it couldn't have. It never will."

Slamming planes into the WTC probably looked like a ridiculious plot too.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the best thing for Canada probably would've been to just let them do it and then 'swoop' down on them.

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