Suspected Terrorists Arrested in Toronto

[Riverwind]

How is that an attack on muslims, I want to hear them speak out against it. The community needs to denounce these people and distance themselves, otherwise that line gets more blurry.

The Muslim community is as divided as the Christian community. Would you expect every Christian to go out of their way to speak out against somebody who murdered a doctor in the name Christianity?

Furthermore, how would you feel if the media only interviewed the local Catholic bishop every time a 'Christian' issue came up? Would you feel that non-Christians were getting a fair view of the Christian community from the opinions of that single bishop? Unfortunately, that is what happens with Muslim converage in the media - many Muslim groups cannot get their voices into the media because the media is selective about which groups it interviews.

[john2]

Well, in Canada we more and more learn the news about Muslim extremists, grown tall in our country. And the fact that our Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) has recently arrested 17 Muslims who "planned to explode some targets through utilization of chemical fertilizers" is good validation of developing the process of radicalization of Muslim organizations on the territory of Canada, following Europe. According to data CSIS Operation Branch Canadian police keeps watch over 50-60 radical Muslim organizations, which members have taken active part in such terrorist military campaigns as conflicts in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya and others. They are experienced militants who have migrated to Canada and now call upon our young people to proceed to radical actions in solving any appeared problems. The main difficulty of struggle against these extremists is that they have mixed with our society such that there is practically no difference between them and our local population. But they are very dangerous for us as they rouse national hatred and foment religious strife among men in our streets. And there is no surprise that over 400 officers of our national police force were involved in terrorist investigations in our country, because it will be no good standing back in such case and waiting for things to sort themselves out.

[Black Dog]

Charles Anthony

If these averted terrorist plots are not a justification for beefing up the Canadian military, I do not know what is!

Er...this was good old fashined police work in action. Beefing up the military would do sweet F.A.

killjoy:

Not for nothing but a lot of people do base the idea of terror attacks against Canada within the context of our involvement in Afghanistan and 9/11...ie. if we weren't there this wouldn't have happened.

Does anyone remeber Ressam and his crew, who were planning a terrorist attack in Jewish Montreal? In 1999, BTW, before 911 or Afghanistan. The terrorists were trained there, however.

Afghanistan IS our problem. If the Taliban return, and are allowed to set up more training camps, who do you think will be number 2 or 3 on their list of targets? Even if we did leave now?

These suspects were homegrown. The London bombers were homegrown. Ditto Madrid. Foreign terror networks aren't the problem.

Anyway, I think this undermines one of the fundamental precepts of the "war on terror": that we must fight "them" over "there" so we don't have to do it here. Well, as these arrests and other recent successful attacks have shown, "they" are here already. The conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq appear to be serving as rallying points, current examples of the western war against Islam that is central to the radical ideology which uses terrorism as its weapon of choice. IOW the "war on terror" is ultimately counterproductive.

[SirSpanky]

Agreed. Did we think we'd be able to fight them "over there" indefinately?

So what is the solution to these home grown terrorists? It seems to me that short of measures that the facist poster would implement, all we could do is beef up internal intelligence efforts (whatever that means), and put in place some sort of laws to support it.

I was always under the impression that the reason these people go so nuts and flock to this fanatacism is sub-standard living conditions, be them social, economic or whatever. This kind of flies in the face of all that, with these people living in our comfortable, relatively prosperous nation. Clearly these people are in contact with someone feeding them these dangerous memes and beliefs. How about we find them?

[Bryan]

BTW, there is a stupid cow (Rosemary Thompson) on CTV now suggesting that our role in Afghanistan might be responsible for provoking such a thing, as well as our closeness to George Bush.

I'm a hard-core Conservative, with nothing but contempt for anything that even appears Liberalish, and even I have to admit that she's undeniably right about that. Nobody in the world hates Canadians as a people "for who we are and how we live". We have become a target in the last few years for one reason only: We are too chummy with the U.S.

This was my biggest fear when the "war on terror" began; that we would not distance our intentions from those of the U.S. in a distinct enough manner. Stepping up our presence in Afghanistan gives the signal to the terrorists that we are on board U.S. imperialism, and puts us at risk at home.

Now, I'm not saying that we should not be doing our part. We certainly can't be sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that it'll go away. But we should not kid ourselves. More Canadian involvement in the middle east makes us a bigger target. The more we do over there, the more danger our citizens are in over here. It's an iron clad guarantee.

[Rue]

. ALL Muslims are to be deported en masse. No discussion. Do it.

Nothing like a hate mongerer to get my day started. Well at least Muslims know this

non Muslim Canadian (yegads I am a Jew ooh ooh come and get me) like the vast majority of Canadians don't buy into this hatred. We know these idiots arrested twist the Islam religion and quote it but are no reflection on the vast majority of Muslims. The above loves such incidents because it gives him a platform to spew his hatred. I may disagree with many Muslims on their views as to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict but I respect them as citizens of Canada and I will be the first to defend them from such drivel.

[Rue]

" We can, however, start deporting muslims that openly hate Canada and just abuse us for our health care, while wishing we'd all die openly on the media. I'm speaking about the Khadr's, and numerous other Muslim families, that openly preach the greatness of Osama and how they want us to die, but somehow we accept them openly.

We should arrest all these people indefinitely, they are obviously so mentally corrupt that they will never be able to fit into western society, and they are too large a threat to our troops if we return them to their al-Qaeda training camps.

Just remember, my Liberal friends in this country, that we openly accept al-Qaeda trainies. Until that changes, we are all at a very large risk."

Right its all created by the Liberals. Man I hope Black Dog lectures you like he does those nasty Israeli Zionists! .Seriously, there's this thing called freedom of expression. Last time I looked the laws of this country require you proof certain things before you arrest someone. There's often a fine line between expressing an opinion and inciting violence or conspiracy to commit acts of terror so stay calm. Blaming Liberals or winding yourself up like some angry guy with a torch in a crowd in one of those Frankenstein movies screaming for Frankenstein's death won't help. Oopsy I bet you Frankenstein was a Zionist from the sounds of his name.

"The Muslim Community needs to take a stronger stand and if they find Muslims in their Community who support Bin Laden and wish Death on Canadians even preaching it in their Mosques they should report their activities to the proper authorities as they would be helping their Community.."

I couldn't agree more strongly with the above statement and I think most Muslim Canadians would also agree with you.

Then again I am a Zionist so what do I know!

[Rue]

Deporting suspects or sending them to American Cuba is tantamount to destroying evidence and foolish. (Of course, that is what happened to all of the debris from the World Trade Center, but that is a different topic. Or is it?) As a member of the public, I, for one, would love to get into the mind of these people. Just ask them a few questions, at the very least. Imagine them being interviewed on 20/20 or 60 Minutes. That would not only be interesting but I think it would lead us to more power in combatting them.

Surely to goodness, let our psychologists or psychonanalysts or criminologists or forensists or whatever study them!

Ah!!!!! but that would lead to us having to raise the cloak of secrecy.... I have heard the argument that issues of national security can not be made open to the public --- yadda yadda yadda -- but I have never heard anybody explain or justify it. Give me an example, even a hypothetical one, but give me an example. Maybe there is something that we should not know....

We should really slow down.

I fear a community that reflexively acts like a lynch-mob. Our courts make enough mistakes with innocently convicted people in jail -- what makes us think we know better?

I echo the statement: every suspect (regardless of our media-manufactured consent on their prejudiced guilt) should have their day in court.

I have heard more muslims in Canada categorically state that the muslim extremists and terrorists are a stain and an abomination to Islam compared to muslims "openly hate Canada" or anything of the sort. In fact, I have never heard any muslim in Canada say that they "openly hate Canada" ever! I have many friends and acquaintances who are muslim and they ALL insist that the islamic terrorists are mortal blasphemers. They will not go to Heaven.

Clearly there differences in the interpretation and practice of the Koran. Christians have extreme differences in dogmatic interpretation, practice and who will go to Heaven.

Look at Iraq today: muslims singling out and killing muslims. Clearly there is a domestic civil war that we do not understand. The Americans are not the sole enemy and target in Iraq. Any of us in North America able to explain the conflict between Sunnis, Shites and Kurds of Iraq? That is the conflict.

Anybody able to say what side of this civil war America is supporting?

Anybody able to justify America taking ANY side, for that matter?

Holy cow, where did you come from!? A man who sounds calm and logical and makes sense! You ruin everything!

quote]

[killjoy]

Black Dog

Foreign terror networks aren't the problem.

Anyway, I think this undermines one of the fundamental precepts of the "war on terror": that we must fight "them" over there

I agree. I posted that when details on the suspects origins were sketchy.

.

[kimmy]

If nothing else, this should at least put a permanent end to the stupid, yet previously common, claim that staying out of Iraq would keep us safe from terrorism.

Remember, folks: we don't get to decide what qualifies as a provocation to the terrorists. They themselves decide what they take offense to, and they're not known for taking a fair, rational, mainstream view when it comes to deciding what justifies an attack. I just thought I should throw that out there, because some of you debating whether Canada's role in Afghanistan spurred this seem to have lost sight of it.

GostHacked seems to take great comfort that this collection of suspects apparently has no connection to Al Qaeda. Why is that a good thing?

I find myself wondering the same thing I wonder everytime the Edmonton Police Service talks about a new prostitute murder. "We have no evidence that this is the work of a serial killer." Is that supposed to be comforting? Which is actually more disturbing: the idea that all 30+ murders were committed by the same man, or that there are 30+ unrelated murders and perhaps 30+ murderers walking the street?

To me, I find the idea that Canadian citizens would find "inspiration" in the work of Al Qaeda and start building their own bombs to be the most troubling aspect of this.

-k

[KrustyKidd]

Now, I'm not saying that we should not be doing our part. We certainly can't be sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that it'll go away. But we should not kid ourselves. More Canadian involvement in the middle east makes us a bigger target. The more we do over there, the more danger our citizens are in over here. It's an iron clad guarantee.

Uhh?

Pretending what will not go away? The fact that terrorism from extremists is going to occur if left unchecked, hence we should not fight them or, did you mean that we should fight them but someplace where we don't make them mad at us. A gentler, more sensitve kind of fighting them. Where exactly do you suggest we engage them to take on a pro active rather than defensive posture if not the Middle East? Mexico?

[Black Dog]

Uhh?

Pretending what will not go away? The fact that terrorism from extremists is going to occur if left unchecked, hence we should not fight them or, did you mean that we should fight them but someplace where we don't make them mad at us. A gentler, more sensitve kind of fighting them. Where exactly do you suggest we engage them to take on a pro active rather than defensive posture if not the Middle East? Mexico?

How is a "proactive" appraoch (eg. riding roughshod over the Middle East) going to eliminate the threat of domestic terrorism?

[August1991]

"I feed my animals at night," the farmer said yesterday. "So I'd be outside late at night and I'd hear the gunfire from over there, automatic gunfire. I'd hear rat-a-tat-a-tat-a-tat.

"I just knew there was something wrong about them. It was obvious they were doing some kind of military training."

The sounds of war were coming from what police now describe as a terrorist training camp on an isolated property just outside Washago, about 150 kilometres north of Toronto.

National Post

I'm no scare monger and I'm trying to be sceptical but no one can fabricate evidence like this. Will the Left now say that this "camp" was an elaborate fabrication of the RCMP?

[killjoy]

I'm no scare monger and I'm trying to be skeptical but no one can fabricate evidence like this. Will the Left now say that this "camp" was an elaborate fabrication of the RCMP?

They kinda have to, don't they?

Anything to paint this in a negative light, after all they need to distract people from comparing this security sweep with the one they tried to do 2 years ago when they wrote the manual on how to COMPLETELY screw up this kind of investigation.

Anyone remember that fiasco? "Oh well one of them was learning to be a pilot and his flight path took him near a nuclear power plant"...

Yeah I don't remember the fair-weather politically-conscious-when-it's-conveinent Liberal supporters claiming the Liberals were just emulating Bush then....which ironic since it was much more like a Bush-policy if you consider for a moment how much of a complete cluster-**** it was.

.

[BHS]

BTW, there is a stupid cow (Rosemary Thompson) on CTV now suggesting that our role in Afghanistan might be responsible for provoking such a thing, as well as our closeness to George Bush.

I'm a hard-core Conservative, with nothing but contempt for anything that even appears Liberalish, and even I have to admit that she's undeniably right about that. Nobody in the world hates Canadians as a people "for who we are and how we live". We have become a target in the last few years for one reason only: We are too chummy with the U.S.

This was my biggest fear when the "war on terror" began; that we would not distance our intentions from those of the U.S. in a distinct enough manner. Stepping up our presence in Afghanistan gives the signal to the terrorists that we are on board U.S. imperialism, and puts us at risk at home.

Now, I'm not saying that we should not be doing our part. We certainly can't be sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that it'll go away. But we should not kid ourselves. More Canadian involvement in the middle east makes us a bigger target. The more we do over there, the more danger our citizens are in over here. It's an iron clad guarantee.

Am I to read this to mean that you prefer an isolationist policy for Canada?

[BHS]

Charles Anthony

If these averted terrorist plots are not a justification for beefing up the Canadian military, I do not know what is!

Er...this was good old fashined police work in action. Beefing up the military would do sweet F.A.

killjoy:

Not for nothing but a lot of people do base the idea of terror attacks against Canada within the context of our involvement in Afghanistan and 9/11...ie. if we weren't there this wouldn't have happened.

Does anyone remeber Ressam and his crew, who were planning a terrorist attack in Jewish Montreal? In 1999, BTW, before 911 or Afghanistan. The terrorists were trained there, however.

Afghanistan IS our problem. If the Taliban return, and are allowed to set up more training camps, who do you think will be number 2 or 3 on their list of targets? Even if we did leave now?

These suspects were homegrown. The London bombers were homegrown. Ditto Madrid. Foreign terror networks aren't the problem.

Anyway, I think this undermines one of the fundamental precepts of the "war on terror": that we must fight "them" over "there" so we don't have to do it here. Well, as these arrests and other recent successful attacks have shown, "they" are here already. The conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq appear to be serving as rallying points, current examples of the western war against Islam that is central to the radical ideology which uses terrorism as its weapon of choice. IOW the "war on terror" is ultimately counterproductive.

Hey BD,

Any irony for you in the idea that these guys had their communications monitored? Just asking.

[GostHacked]

Black Dog

Foreign terror networks aren't the problem.

Anyway, I think this undermines one of the fundamental precepts of the "war on terror": that we must fight "them" over there

I agree. I posted that when details on the suspects origins were sketchy.

.

If what I am reading through the postings is true, there is some conflicting evidence on what went down. Even the news articles cannot give me a full story.

The police had some involvement with selling/supplying the fertilizer. ?

There was nothing else on them that would help make NA a bomb. ?

Domestic homegrown terrorists. ?

Domestic home grown terrorists with international ties?

Parliment/Peace Tower was a target.?

Each article I read was different. Even on the Ottawa Citizen the headlines were something like ' PEACE TOWER TERROR PLOT' Other reports say Parliment was not a target.

So wtf? Can we get a good straight solid answer?

[BHS]

I don't know if this has been discussed anywhere on the forum yet.

It seems the ammonium nitrate was delivered to the suspects by undercover police officers.

Does anyone else hope, please sweet Jesus please, that the police had the good sense to deliver something that was not ammonium nitrate but merely a harmless substance packaged to look like ammonium nitrate?

I mean, wouldn't it be a screaming nightmare of an irony if somehow the police had lost track of the chemicals at the last minute, and they ended up being used to take out Metro Police Headquarters? Or that CSIS building?

[August1991]

Does anyone else hope, please sweet Jesus please, that the police had the good sense to deliver something that was not ammonium nitrate but merely a harmless substance packaged to look like ammonium nitrate?

The police have said that the accused received an inert white substance, not real fertilizer, through what is called a "controlled delivery".

It is still not clear whether the RCMP negotiated itself the sale of the fertilizer or whether the RCMP became aware of the order and then intervened.

IMV, it is noteworthy that the RCMP did not mention any of this at the initial press conference on Saturday morning. The bag of fertilizer shown to the media then was unrelated to the investigation.

The 17 were associated with a mosque in Toronto well-known to CSIS and and the 17 had links to people already held in jail under security certificates. IOW, this was no sleeper cell that suddenly appeared out of nowhere.

There are still many questions outstanding.

[newbie]

If nothing else, this should at least put a permanent end to the stupid, yet previously common, claim that staying out of Iraq would keep us safe from terrorism.

I believe we were at risk when we went into Afghanistan.

[BHS]

If nothing else, this should at least put a permanent end to the stupid, yet previously common, claim that staying out of Iraq would keep us safe from terrorism.

I believe we were at risk when we went into Afghanistan.

I believe we were at risk before that.

[KrustyKidd]

How is a "proactive" appraoch (eg. riding roughshod over the Middle East) going to eliminate the threat of domestic terrorism?

Terrorists domestic and otherwise are not simply 'getting even' for some imagined or real slight. They are working towards the Caliphate. Minimalize the overall movement and others will not join it as it will be a waste of time. As for running 'roughshod' accomplishments as follows;

- freeing 31 million people in Afganistan. Allowing them the opportunity to decide their own fate.

- freeing 25 million in Iraq. Allowinfg them the opportunity to decide their own fate.

- minimalizing the repressive taliban.

- disrupting Al Queda and their ability to conduct terrorist attacks.

- uniting over 90 countries world wide in a unified counter terrorism effort

- providing the support Saudi Arabia required so they could conduct their own house cleaning and anti Al Queda operations within the kingdom.

- moved Pakestan away from support for the Taliban

- entered into historic direct talks with Iran over Middle Eastern issues

- eliminated a viscious dictator

- placed other dictators on notice

- ended 12 years of UN bungling in Iraq

- begun the slow transformation of the ME away from repression to human rights and choice for people

Let's give a thought to what the ME would look like post 911 without the US 'running roughshod.'

- Saudi Arabia in civil turmoil with terrorist attacks a common occurence. Close to coup

- Al Qaeda gaining popular support across the region.

- Blix finds no WMDs and sanctions lifted, Saddam now resumes military buildup.

- Al Qaeda with full movement also active in Egypt, Dubai, Qatar and Pakestan

- Taliban still in power 31 million people living in repression, conducting operations into Pakestan

- India threatens nuclear war with Pakestan if Mushariff cannot control terrorists

- Al Qaeda conducting western terrorist acts from Afganistan, getting larger with each sucessful operation

- Al Qaeda conducting terrorist acts against India to percipitate nuclear war

- as momentum grows, so do attacks on western nations as the movement attempts to goad a massive retaliation from the west in order to unify Muslims under their movement

[crazymf]

A random thought...

Terrorist seems to be the catch all word for criminals who are of muslim stereotypical appearance these days. If the people who were arrested are from Canada and have no outside affiliation, why are they terrorists rather than gang members, organised criminals, or merely thugs? Do I smell witch hunt or possible propaganda campaign? Perhaps if they are deemed terrorists, then certain laws prevail that are not accessable otherwise for prosecutorial purposes.

[August1991]

Sayyid Mohamed Syeed, the secretary general of the Islamic Society of North America, said some Muslims who immigrated to Canada were not as well educated as their U.S. counterparts and tended to stick with members of their ethnic community.

"The Canadian Muslim community has in common with the European Muslim community a generally lower skill set, lower education," he told Reuters in Washington.

"Canada has espoused the mixing bowl mentality, celebrating cultural diversity, whereas the United States has pushed for the melting pot model where different cultures are encouraged to blend in with the mainstream."

Reuters

If this were just an Internet rant, then I would excuse it. But this guy claims to represent North American Muslims.

[kimmy]

A random thought...

Terrorist seems to be the catch all word for criminals who are of muslim stereotypical appearance these days. If the people who were arrested are from Canada and have no outside affiliation, why are they terrorists rather than gang members, organised criminals, or merely thugs? Do I smell witch hunt or possible propaganda campaign? Perhaps if they are deemed terrorists, then certain laws prevail that are not accessable otherwise for prosecutorial purposes.

uh, the intention of destroying public targets for political reasons probably has something to do with it, maybe?

If somebody formulates a plan to blow up the Toronto Stock Exchange (source) they're a terrorist.

-k