What makes a truly democratic, freedom loving, and human rights respecting nation?

[blackbird]

I ask this because there are news articles that point out Trump is doing a lot of dictatorial things that totally disrespect the human rights of the individuals targeted.

One example is the 17 people killed on the Caribbean sea without any due process to prove their guilt as drug smugglers.  How is it possible in a democratic society, that claims to respect the rule of law, that one man, the President can just arbitrarily issue orders to kill people without any kind of proof that the people being killed are the actual criminals or actually the ones guilty of the crimes?   How is it possible without doing it through a justice system and fair trial?

Second example is all the students from foreign countries that have been targeted, some incarcerated for months, and then deported for allegedly demonstrating and saying things that the administration doesn't like?  I thought everyone has freedom of speech in America, but apparently that is not true.  One man can apparently take action and do whatever he feels like to anyone whose speech he does not like.  Is this liberty or freedom of speech?  I don't think so.

It's not just that Trump is nuts | Opinion

I think Americans are living in dangerous times.  If what is happening is accepted by America, then anyone could be a target.  Nobody is safe.  Is this the new normal?  I don't know.

Another article says:

"Donald Trump's nominee to lead the Pentagon has openly fantasized about a violent clash between the U.S. military and his political rivals, whom he describes as "domestic enemies." 

Fox News host Pete Hegseth, the president-elect's choice for secretary of defense, published a book in 2020 imagining the outcome of that year's election would lead to “national divorce” and a "civil war" that would involve the military and law enforcement taking up arms against president Joe Biden's supporters, reported The Guardian.

“The fate of freedom is what is at stake in the 2020 election," Hegseth wrote in the book "American Crusade." "The immediate years that follow will, once and for all, determine whether the American experiment in human freedom – the America of our founding – will die, get a national divorce based on irreconcilable cultural and political divisions, or return to its founding principles.”

Trump's defense pick openly fantasized about military attack on 'domestic enemies': report - Raw Story

It is hard to understand what exactly he means.

Edited September 25, 2025 by blackbird

[Michael Hardner]

How do people become aware of these things though? 

You have to look into what constitutes a public sphere. It's very complicated right now because the media landscape is bifurcating into two separate spheres. As time goes on, it's almost like they are different countries within a single country or society.

[West]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I ask this because there are news articles that point out Trump is doing a lot of dictatorial things that totally disrespect the human rights of the individuals targeted.

One example is the 17 people killed on the Caribbean sea without any due process to prove their guilt as drug smugglers.  How is it possible in a democratic society, that claims to respect the rule of law, that one man, the President can just arbitrarily issue orders to kill people without any kind of proof that the people being killed are the actual criminals or actually the ones guilty of the crimes?   How is it possible without doing it through a justice system and fair trial?

Second example is all the students from foreign countries that have been targeted, some incarcerated for months, and then deported for allegedly demonstrating and saying things that the administration doesn't like?  I thought everyone has freedom of speech in America, but apparently that is not true.  One man can apparently take action and do whatever he feels like to anyone whose speech he does not like.  Is this liberty or freedom of speech?  I don't think so.

It's not just that Trump is nuts | Opinion

I think Americans are living in dangerous times.  If what is happening is accepted by America, then anyone could be a target.  Nobody is safe.  Is this the new normal?  I don't know.

Are you referencing the harassment Jewish students recieved on college campuses? 

There really isnt freedom of speech on college campuses. If you write a pro Trump paper for your lefty prof chances are you'll get a terrible grade and be kept out of graduate school. 

Edited September 25, 2025 by West

[User]

First of all, he is operating within the framework of US Law given to the Executive Branch. 

It helps to understand these things. You can disagree with what he is doing, but that doesn't make him a dictator or that he is acting like one. 

Second, actions against the drug cartels are war time actions against a declared national enemy. They are not law enforcement actions. In military operations, you do not need to convict someone in a court to take them out on the battlefield. 

Third, this doesn't mean there is no proof. The military is conducting intelligence operations and gathering data to put together these strike packages. 

 

[robosmith]

On 9/25/2025 at 11:07 AM, West said:

Are you referencing the harassment Jewish students recieved on college campuses? 

There really isnt freedom of speech on college campuses. If you write a pro Trump paper for your lefty prof chances are you'll get a terrible grade and be kept out of graduate school. 

Do you know what happened to Muslim students here after 9/11?

It is totally unfair to blame students from a country for what their countries' leaders do, but it's NOT JUST JEWS. Duh

Turn off the FOS LIES and GET HELP.

[West]

3 hours ago, robosmith said:

Do you know what happened to Muslim students here after 9/11?

It is totally unfair to blame students from a country for what their countries' leaders do, but it's NOT JUST JEWS. Duh

Turn off the FOS LIES and GET HELP.

Both sides ism to justify harassing jews 🤢 

Remember when you said it never happened? 

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, West said:

Both sides ism to justify harassing jews 🤢 

Remember when you said it never happened? 

I never said it never happened, that would be foolish. Duh

A pic was posted of some students standing by some doors and I asked which were the Jews that were being blocked and nobody knew.

Of course I understand that anti-Semitism was severely INFLAMED by the wanton destruction and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza by Israelis. Do you?  

[West]

8 hours ago, robosmith said:

I never said it never happened, that would be foolish. Duh

A pic was posted of some students standing by some doors and I asked which were the Jews that were being blocked and nobody knew.

Of course I understand that anti-Semitism was severely INFLAMED by the wanton destruction and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in Gaza by Israelis. Do you?  

No, radical Muslims have hated the jews and this was no different. They took hostage a number of Israelis, cut off babies heads and then cried foul when Israel retaliated. 

Not to mention the foreigners ie Muslims are loathed on college campuses because they took over the student union in one of the colleges near me, are now placed under criminal investigation for embezzling money off students, and forcefully took over a women's event on campus harassing the women and eventually had the event canceled. 

Not to mention they are committing genocide against Christians in Nigeria and no leftist will ever talk about it

 

 

Edited September 27, 2025 by West

[robosmith]

3 hours ago, West said:

No, radical Muslims have hated the jews and this was no different. They took hostage a number of Israelis, cut off babies heads and then cried foul when Israel retaliated. 

Do you not understand WHY Palestinians hate the Jews who terrorized them into fleeing their ancestral homes just to create a Jewish majority state?

Do you even know how many Palestinian homes have been STOLEN?

3 hours ago, West said:

Not to mention the foreigners ie Muslims are loathed on college campuses because they took over the student union in one of the colleges near me, are now placed under criminal investigation for embezzling money off students, and forcefully took over a women's event on campus harassing the women and eventually had the event canceled. 

Near you is NOT in the US. Why don't YOU STOP THAT?

3 hours ago, West said:

Not to mention they are committing genocide against Christians in Nigeria and no leftist will ever talk about it

 

 

Old "news." Goes back to 1953. The US has NO RESPONSIBILTY there.

Religious violence in Nigeria

Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Religious_violence_in...

 

Religious violence in Nigeria refers to Christian-Muslim strife in modern Nigeria, which can be traced back to 1953. Today, religious violence in Nigeria is ...

Edited September 27, 2025 by robosmith

[West]

43 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Do you not understand WHY Palestinians hate the Jews who terrorized them into fleeing their ancestral homes just to create a Jewish majority state?

Do you even know how many Palestinian homes have been STOLEN?

Near you is NOT in the US. Why don't YOU STOP THAT?

Old "news." Goes back to 1953. The US has NO RESPONSIBILTY there.

Religious violence in Nigeria

Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Religious_violence_in...

 

Religious violence in Nigeria refers to Christian-Muslim strife in modern Nigeria, which can be traced back to 1953. Today, religious violence in Nigeria is ...

This is totally false and defamatory against the Jewish people. 

Anybody who has honestly studied the area and is not engaging in islamist propaganda would tell you these people PURCHASED PROPERTY after the fall of the Ottoman empire in the early 1900sm. In 1948 after Israel was designated as a nation land ownership in the area was already predominantly Jewish, and any expansion of the state was done through purchasing land. Nobody "stole" land from anybody; it was purchased. This is in contrast to the Islamic caliphate known as the Ottoman empire who expanded through bloodshed. 

The islamists want their caliphate state back and will lie, threaten or kill to get it. 

 

Edited September 27, 2025 by West

[robosmith]

30 minutes ago, West said:

This is totally false and defamatory against the Jewish people. 

Anybody who has honestly studied the area and is not engaging in islamist propaganda would tell you these people PURCHASED PROPERTY after the fall of the Ottoman empire in the early 1900sm. In 1948 after Israel was designated as a nation land ownership in the area was already predominantly Jewish, and any expansion of the state was done through purchasing land. Nobody "stole" land from anybody; it was purchased. This is in contrast to the Islamic caliphate known as the Ottoman empire who expanded through bloodshed. 

The islamists want their caliphate state back and will lie, threaten or kill to get it. 

 

You have bought Israeli propaganda. There are many sources which say OTHERWISE.

Some land was purchased by Israelis, MUCH OTHER LAND was STOLEN.

Here is one source. There are many OTHERS.

The Looting of Palestinian Jerusalem in 1948

Quote

Drawing from more than two-dozen state, army, and kibbutzim archives, in addition to journals of key figures, Raz illustrates in painstaking and often hard-to-read detail the extent to which Zionist Jewish settlers were able to confiscate the homes and properties of terrorized Palestinians who had fled the war—temporarily, they thought, having no reason to believe that their departure would be permanent. Whatever these Zionists saw, they coveted and plundered. They descended like jackals on well-maintained homes and stripped them of their furnishings; they stole from people they knew, like their neighbors, and from residents in other towns; they went on foot individually and in groups and took what they could carry, hauling larger items on trucks. They were civilians, as well as soldiers and police officers.

Another source from the US DoJ website:

TERROR OUT OF ZION - IRGUN ZVAI LEUMI, LEHI, AND THE PALESTINE UNDERGROUND, 1929-1949

Quote

Abstract

IN 1929, JEWISH-ARAB CONFLICT IN PALESTINE PRODUCED MANY DEATHS ON BOTH SIDES, DESPITE EFFORTS OF THE OCCUPYING BRITISH ARMY TO KEEP PEACE. THE HAGANAH HAD BEEN ESTABLISHED BY JEWISH ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICIALS TO PROVIDE WHAT PROVED TO BE LIMITED SELF-DEFENSE FOR JEWISH COMMUNITIES, WITH ORDERS NOT TO ENGAGE IN INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS ON ARABS. COOPERATION WITH BRITISH SECURITY FORCES WAS HAGANAH POLICY. DURING THIS PERIOD OF INCREASING HOSTILITIES BETWEEN ARABS AND JEWS, THE IRGUN WAS FORMED UPON THE LEADERSHIP OF VLADIMIR JABOTINSKY TO ASSUME AN OFFENSIVE TERRORIST STRATEGY AGAINST THE ARABS WITH APPARENTLY ARBITRARY VIOLENCE AGAINST ARAB POPULATIONS. ANOTHER UNDERGROUND JEWISH TERRORIST GROUP, LOHAMEY HERUTH ISRAEL (FIGHTERS FOR THE FREEDOM OF ISRAEL) OR LEHI, WAS FORMED UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF AVRAHAM STERN AND CAME TO BE PERCEIVED BY CONVENTIONAL EYES AS THE MOST VIOLENT AND UNRESTRAINED TERRORIST ORGANIZATION OF THE MODERN ERA. WHEREAS THE HAGANAH ACTED AS AN UNDERGROUPND MILITIA AND THE IRGUN AS AN UNDERGROUND ARMY, LEHI FOCUSED ON THE ASSASSINATIONS OF SIGNIFICANT BRITISH OFFICIALS, THE MOST NOTABLE BEING THE MURDER OF BRITISH AMBASSADOR MOYNE IN EGYPT. THE IRGUN, WITH LEADERSHIP PASSING FROM JABOTINSKY TO MENACHEM BEGIN, CONTINUED ITS AGGRESSION AGAINST THE ARABS AND THE BRITISH OCCUPIERS (FREQUENTLY IN JOINT ACTIONS WITH LEHI) UNTIL PARTITIONING OF PALESTINE OCCURRED BY UNITED NATIONS ACTION. ISRAELI GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS SOUGHT NONVIOLENT AND ACCOMMODATING RESOLUTIONS TO ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICTS, LEADING TO THE CENSURE OF IRGUN IN THE INTEREST OF A UNIFIED, OFFICIAL POLICY OF MODERATION. BEGIN EVENTUALLY DISMANTLED IRGUN TO ESTABLISH A LEGITIMATE POLITICAL PARTY. WHILE THE MODERATES OF ZIONISM AND ISRAELI OFFICIALDOM VIEWED THE VIOLENT ACTIVITIES OF IRGUN AND LEHI AS A MORAL BLIGHT ON THE JEWISH PEOPLE AND DESTRUCTIVE OF EFFORTS AT PEACEFUL RESOLUTIONS OF CONFLICTS, OTHERS VIEWED THESE GROUPS AND THEIR MEMBERS AS THE MOST DEDICATED, SACRIFICIAL, AND EFFECTIVE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE ZIONIST CAUSE. AN INDEX IS PROVIDED. (RCB)

 

 

[West]

21 minutes ago, robosmith said:

You have bought Israeli propaganda. There are many sources which say OTHERWISE.

Some land was purchased by Israelis, MUCH OTHER LAND was STOLEN.

Here is one source. There are many OTHERS.

The Looting of Palestinian Jerusalem in 1948

Another source from the US DoJ website:

TERROR OUT OF ZION - IRGUN ZVAI LEUMI, LEHI, AND THE PALESTINE UNDERGROUND, 1929-1949

 

 

Sounds like your source is nazi

[robosmith]

11 minutes ago, West said:

Sounds like your source is nazi

Yours is missing

[West]

3 hours ago, robosmith said:

Yours is missing

Why am I not surprised that you side with a group who wants to eradicate the Jews after your vile response a few weeks ago to the Charlie Kirk assassination? 

[Nationalist]

17 minutes ago, West said:

Why am I not surprised that you side with a group who wants to eradicate the Jews after your vile response a few weeks ago to the Charlie Kirk assassination? 

Don't be too hard on ol' robo-dweeb.

He's been a loser all his miserable life and doesn't know anything else.

[robosmith]

6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Don't be too hard on ol' robo-dweeb.

He's been a loser all his miserable life and doesn't know anything else.

^Says the a-hole who knows nothing about my life.

I got my Master of Science Degree, dropout.

Which is why I know science and YOU DO NOT.

[paxamericana]

On 9/25/2025 at 11:41 AM, blackbird said:

I ask this because there are news articles that point out Trump is doing a lot of dictatorial things that totally disrespect the human rights of the individuals targeted.

One example is the 17 people killed on the Caribbean sea without any due process to prove their guilt as drug smugglers.  How is it possible in a democratic society, that claims to respect the rule of law, that one man, the President can just arbitrarily issue orders to kill people without any kind of proof that the people being killed are the actual criminals or actually the ones guilty of the crimes?   How is it possible without doing it through a justice system and fair trial?

Second example is all the students from foreign countries that have been targeted, some incarcerated for months, and then deported for allegedly demonstrating and saying things that the administration doesn't like?  I thought everyone has freedom of speech in America, but apparently that is not true.  One man can apparently take action and do whatever he feels like to anyone whose speech he does not like.  Is this liberty or freedom of speech?  I don't think so.

It's not just that Trump is nuts | Opinion

I think Americans are living in dangerous times.  If what is happening is accepted by America, then anyone could be a target.  Nobody is safe.  Is this the new normal?  I don't know.

Another article says:

"Donald Trump's nominee to lead the Pentagon has openly fantasized about a violent clash between the U.S. military and his political rivals, whom he describes as "domestic enemies." 

Fox News host Pete Hegseth, the president-elect's choice for secretary of defense, published a book in 2020 imagining the outcome of that year's election would lead to “national divorce” and a "civil war" that would involve the military and law enforcement taking up arms against president Joe Biden's supporters, reported The Guardian.

“The fate of freedom is what is at stake in the 2020 election," Hegseth wrote in the book "American Crusade." "The immediate years that follow will, once and for all, determine whether the American experiment in human freedom – the America of our founding – will die, get a national divorce based on irreconcilable cultural and political divisions, or return to its founding principles.”

Trump's defense pick openly fantasized about military attack on 'domestic enemies': report - Raw Story

It is hard to understand what exactly he means.

This is a long winded essay. Money it takes money to create "truly democratic, freedom loving, and human rights respecting nation?"

See what most people do not understand is that for goverment and other countries to treat you the individual , with human rights and respect this requires that you as a human has a net value and not just another mouth to feed. Human capital is the corporate term. But human capital can only flourish when the basic human condition can be satisfy, 1) security, 2) food, 3)an economic system that values human capital. 

1) America is too safe, it cares not the woes of the world

2) America has the best most productive land in the entire world, food is naturally abundant

3) The world is aging out, it matters not if you all can make really good product if there isn't anyone on the otherside of the border that is buying it. This is the primary reason for US-trade defecit. We buy stuff but you don't buy ours. So beg us to care about the rest of the world because we truely do not care. Trump is an isolationist, the natural American tendency, you're just living through the next iteration of it.