Ignatieff v. Harper

[August1991]

There's something else that I thought about in Harper's case.

Harper bested Manning, Stronach, Martin and Dion. In each case, the MSM initially presented Harper as having met his match (or some variant on that theme).

[Mr.Canada]

There's something else that I thought about in Harper's case.

Harper bested Manning, Stronach, Martin and Dion. In each case, the MSM initially presented Harper as having met his match (or some variant on that theme).

The MSM and all the left paint Harper as the devil yet he keeps winning elections. These guys really need to change the record. Harper has adjusted and overcome everything these morons can throw at him.

[Smallc]

The MSM and all the left paint Harper as the devil yet he keeps winning elections.

Don't get too carried away, he won 2 elections.

[jdobbin]

The MSM and all the left paint Harper as the devil yet he keeps winning elections.

Harper has never lost an election?

[jdobbin]

In each case, the MSM initially presented Harper as having met his match (or some variant on that theme).

Really? Each time? Seems like they thought Dion was going to be a pushover from Day 1 and that Harper would win again.

[LesterDC]

Don't get too carried away, he won 2 elections.

Minorities as well

[cybercoma]

My point is that for the past 40 years, Canada's main spokesman has come from Quebec. English Canada has not had an authentic voice. (Mulroney is a possible exception.) Stephen Harper is the first WASP since Lester Pearson. (Even Quebec is fed up of this state of affairs and Dion's defeat is something like American blacks voting against Obama III.)

There is no English-Canada. That's the point. You view it that way because Quebec seems to think they're somehow a partner to "The Rest of Canada"; however, "The Rest of Canada" simply views Quebec as just another province, albeit a distinct province, but just a province nonetheless. So, who speaks for English Canada? Not any one person because there is not national identity, there is no relation to an English Canada.

[August1991]

There is no English-Canada.

Really?

And is there no Canada either?

Edited December 14, 2008 by August1991

[Oleg Bach]

There is no English-Canada. That's the point. You view it that way because Quebec seems to think they're somehow a partner to "The Rest of Canada"; however, "The Rest of Canada" simply views Quebec as just another province, albeit a distinct province, but just a province nonetheless. So, who speaks for English Canada? Not any one person because there is not national identity, there is no relation to an English Canada.

Quebec gets to have a French Canada - and we are stuck with multi-culturalist nothing...he's right - there is no English Canada - we deserve to survive and thrive...the French get the pie and we get the dirty plate?

[ToadBrother]

Quebec gets to have a French Canada - and we are stuck with multi-culturalist nothing...he's right - there is no English Canada - we deserve to survive and thrive...the French get the pie and we get the dirty plate?

There's no English Canada because the history of the various regions of English Canada is significantly different. Ontario's history is quite apart from that of the Maritimes. The West was formed very differently as well, and even within the West there's no single story. The colonies in British Columbia were being founded while much of the rest of the West was tractless.

French Canada does have a rather singular and long history dating back to the beginnings of New France. I'm not saying either way is better, it's just that, essentially, English Canada was formed by separate waves of colonization, in some cases by people who weren't even English. Several of my ancestors were German immigrants during the 19th century.

[punked]

We get PM's from Quebec because it is the firewall. It is what decides if there is a majority or swings the election. They have a Non of the above option if they feel the Liberals aren't right or the the don't want the Cons to get a Majority. Right now I am fine with that because Harper burned all his bridges trying to save his government.

[August1991]

There's no English Canada because the history of the various regions of English Canada is significantly different. Ontario's history is quite apart from that of the Maritimes. The West was formed very differently as well, and even within the West there's no single story. The colonies in British Columbia were being founded while much of the rest of the West was tractless.

Your call, Toad.

We get PM's from Quebec because it is the firewall.

Firewall? WTF is that?

There's no English Canada because the history of the various regions of English Canada is significantly different.

Really? No English Canada?

But is there a Canada?

-----

Are you people pathetic, hopeless? What is Canada? I prefer a Canada of kitsch. Each of us (some 30 million) can see in Canada what we want to see. To some, red maple flags are good and to others, they're anodine.

If you really need to feel proud of your nation, buy a dog and take it for a walk. Otherwise, I'm a Canadian who is proud to sit aside your American system, includiing your President Obama. You Americans defend the right of the rest of us to choose. Because of you Americans, we are free to choose.

Edited December 14, 2008 by August1991

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Although a tad light on its complexities, you are right about the Americans August.

[Topaz]

Well Iggy says he does and if you look at Harper, I think Canadians would give him a failing grade especially in the Atlantic provinces, were Cons hardly had anyone elected. Iggy is still to be tested but Harper fails by facts alone.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Iggy will surprise many folks. He scares Steve, so look at it from that viewpoint. This is the first guy that can actually contest Harper for the top job.

[Mr.Canada]

Iggy will surprise many folks. He scares Steve, so look at it from that viewpoint. This is the first guy that can actually contest Harper for the top job.

Ignatieff has put his foot in his mouth many times in the past and he will again. The Liberal-Secularist-Socialist-Separatist Coalition is keeping him under a tight lid for now. They won't be able to forever.

He doesn't scare Steve at all. Steve needs for him to speak in public, if the Coalition will allow him to speak that is, in order to get some ammo to bring him down with. I imagine Steve is saving his biggest weapons for an election run. The Tories are masters of PR and attack ads.

[blueblood]

Ignatieff has put his foot in his mouth many times in the past and he will again. The Liberal-Secularist-Socialist-Separatist Coalition is keeping him under a tight lid for now. They won't be able to forever.

He doesn't scare Steve at all. Steve needs for him to speak in public, if the Coalition will allow him to speak that is, in order to get some ammo to bring him down with. I imagine Steve is saving his biggest weapons for an election run. The Tories are masters of PR and attack ads.

Harper has it all made. The longer the coalition sticks together, the better it is for Harper, and the longer the bitter taste is in the mouth of Canadians. If Harper doesn't screw Ignatieff over in the budget, I will not be a happy camper. He has the opposition cornered and bloodied. Hopefully the death blow will come soon.

Ignatieff however speaks fine in public. Harper isn't looking for gaffes, he's looking to tie him to the coalition. However the tories need to get some airtime on TV just to get out there. Liberal changes in command tend to bounce the polls in their favor due to the hoopla that goes along with it.

[Mr.Canada]

Yeah, that sounds good too blueblood. I don't care how it comes about as long as we get our majority and we can off public funding of political parties and in turn crushing the Separatist Bloc, I'll be happy.

[cybercoma]

Really?

And is there no Canada either?

I'm not sure I follow.

[cybercoma]

Well Iggy says he does and if you look at Harper, I think Canadians would give him a failing grade especially in the Atlantic provinces, were Cons hardly had anyone elected. Iggy is still to be tested but Harper fails by facts alone.

Especially the Atlantic Provinces? The Liberals lost seats to Conservatives in NB and PEI.

[kimmy]

Well Iggy says he does and if you look at Harper, I think Canadians would give him a failing grade especially in the Atlantic provinces, were Cons hardly had anyone elected. Iggy is still to be tested but Harper fails by facts alone.

I love how Harper is not a "national leader" because he got shut out of a province with half the population of the Edmonton area...

...while for decades, no Liberal leaders has received anything from the prairies but a handful of leaves, yet somehow these Liberal leaders have had no difficulty going around telling everyone that they are "de Prime Ministar for de whole countrie an all of de Canadiens for sure an all dat!"

-k

[cybercoma]

And kimmy's point isn't anything new either. Didn't Trudeau try to get NDP MPs in his cabinet to have representation from the west, but the NDP told him where to go?

[fellowtraveller]

There are only seven Liberal ridings west of Windor, and four of those are in urban Vancouver alone. The only national party left, like it or not, is the CPC.

[August1991]

I'm not sure I follow.

Cybercoma, you objected to my asking "what does English Canada want" by saying that "English Canada doesn't exist" (at least as a single homogeneous entity). So I responded that according to your logic, Canada doesn't exist either.

Is that what you really meant?

I love how Harper is not a "national leader" because he got shut out of a province with half the population of the Edmonton area...

...while for decades, no Liberal leaders has received anything from the prairies but a handful of leaves, yet somehow these Liberal leaders have had no difficulty going around telling everyone that they are "de Prime Ministar for de whole countrie an all of de Canadiens for sure an all dat!"

I saw a bumper sticker today (in English, in Montreal!) that said: "Cry me a river, Build yourself a bridge, Get over it".

----

I started this thread ages ago based on a simple premise. Anglo-American leftists (including MSM types) question themselves and defer to anyone else perceived as a victim. And for the past 40 years, Canada has had PMs from Quebec.

I reckoned that WASP Canada will start to feel that the State does not speak in its name. (Leftists will call this a "backlash".) So, I wondered who speaks best in English-Canada's name? Who has the right cadence and accent?

I think Ignatieff speaks for urban English Canada, and possibly non-WASP English Canada. It seems to me that for a while, Stephen Harper had the chance to speak for many ordinary English Canadians but somehow, he has lost this chance.

[kimmy]

I saw a bumper sticker today (in English, in Montreal!) that said: "Cry me a river, Build yourself a bridge, Get over it".

I am over it, August, I am far far over it. However, I am fascinated by the extent to which the criteria for being a national leader seems to be so changeable.

This idea, that Harper is not a national leader because he got shut out of Newfoundland, has been put forward on a number of occasions by Liberal supporters who seem oblivious to the fact that their own party has had almost no support from a significant chunk of this country, for decades.

I'd just once like to hear some Liberal supporter explain this seeming contradiction. Is the idea that Newfoundland is somehow more integral to the country than the prairies, or is there some other explanation?

I started this thread ages ago based on a simple premise. Anglo-American leftists (including MSM types) question themselves and defer to anyone else perceived as a victim. And for the past 40 years, Canada has had PMs from Quebec.

I reckoned that WASP Canada will start to feel that the State does not speak in its name. (Leftists will call this a "backlash".) So, I wondered who speaks best in English-Canada's name? Who has the right cadence and accent?

I think Ignatieff speaks for urban English Canada, and possibly non-WASP English Canada. It seems to me that for a while, Stephen Harper had the chance to speak for many ordinary English Canadians but somehow, he has lost this chance.

I am skeptical that Ignatieff being Russian Orthodox rather than of WASP descent is of little importance to most people under about 60 years of age, but I could be mistaken. It is not of any particular importance to me that Harper is Harper and not Harpski, Harpow, Harpelli, Harpersson, Harpberg, or so-on.

While I have written several times about my non-English, non-French European ancestors and their contributions to building this country, the fact that Ignatieff is also of non-English, non-French European ancestry doesn't cause me to feel any special kinship with him. If this were 50 years ago, I would probably feel differently. If this were still a country where non-English, non-French Europeans had never achieved the top positions in our society, then having a Russian Orthodox PM would probably be very inspiring. But non-English, non-French Europeans have had every top job in this country except for Prime Minister, and the sense is that the barrier on that issue is not so much that they're not of English descent, but rather that they're non from Quebec.

-k