BeaverFever Posted April 13 Report Posted April 13 (edited) Tl;DR: while successive US Presidents have demanded Europeans spend more on defence they have opposed and obstructed European attempts to develop military capabilities that can operate independently of the US, as well as European attempts to buy more European military equipment instead of US equipment (nearly 2/3 of European military spending is on US equipment) even though USA buys hardly any non-US equipment. What USA really wants is for Europeans to support the US defence industry at the expense of their own and to have small European militaries that can do nothing except be an add-on niche accessory to a US force. Edited April 13 by BeaverFever Quote
herbie Posted April 13 Report Posted April 13 Oh what do facts and reality have to do with anything? And clearly don't understand like a good Trumpoid that when the USA 'suggests' how much you 'should' spend on your military it is an order and an obligation. Quote
Nationalist Posted April 22 Report Posted April 22 On 4/13/2025 at 2:23 PM, BeaverFever said: Tl;DR: while successive US Presidents have demanded Europeans spend more on defence they have opposed and obstructed European attempts to develop military capabilities that can operate independently of the US, as well as European attempts to buy more European military equipment instead of US equipment (nearly 2/3 of European military spending is on US equipment) even though USA buys hardly any non-US equipment. What USA really wants is for Europeans to support the US defence industry at the expense of their own and to have small European militaries that can do nothing except be an add-on niche accessory to a US force. Cute. Well I suppose I should thank you again for proving my point. The US has been carrying much of Europe on its back. And now it's time they stood up like men and took responsibility for their own nations. Vive la middle-class. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
BeaverFever Posted April 22 Author Report Posted April 22 48 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Cute. Well I suppose I should thank you again for proving my point. The US has been carrying much of Europe on its back. And now it's time they stood up like men and took responsibility for their own nations. Vive la middle-class. Only if you consider America militarily occupying Europe and blocking all attempts for Europe to have an independent military “carrying it on its back”. USA was controlling European military to serve its own end. But ye it’s time the western world free itself from the American yoke 1 Quote
Nationalist Posted April 22 Report Posted April 22 38 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: Only if you consider America militarily occupying Europe and blocking all attempts for Europe to have an independent military “carrying it on its back”. USA was controlling European military to serve its own end. But ye it’s time the western world free itself from the American yoke Well it looks like Trump is doing that for them. Quote Its so lonely in m'saddle since m'horse died.
Army Guy Posted May 10 Report Posted May 10 On 4/13/2025 at 3:23 PM, BeaverFever said: Tl;DR: while successive US Presidents have demanded Europeans spend more on defence they have opposed and obstructed European attempts to develop military capabilities that can operate independently of the US, as well as European attempts to buy more European military equipment instead of US equipment (nearly 2/3 of European military spending is on US equipment) even though USA buys hardly any non-US equipment. What USA really wants is for Europeans to support the US defence industry at the expense of their own and to have small European militaries that can do nothing except be an add-on niche accessory to a US force. Just a question what US military equipment does European countries buy....Some planes, not naval ships, not musch army equipment....So where do you get the 2/3 figure from ? It used to be that way, decades ago, but europe has it's own defence industry today....and they don't spend any where near 2/3 of their budgets... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
BeaverFever Posted May 12 Author Report Posted May 12 On 5/9/2025 at 8:40 PM, Army Guy said: Just a question what US military equipment does European countries buy....Some planes, not naval ships, not musch army equipment....So where do you get the 2/3 figure from ? It used to be that way, decades ago, but europe has it's own defence industry today....and they don't spend any where near 2/3 of their budgets... They buy a lot, especially the newest Eastern European members like Poland who practically has an all-American military As you know numerous EU countries bought F-35 and several currently operate F-16. The Aegis naval combat system, VLS and SM missiles are in wide use in Europe as are C-130, Chinook helicopters, some Blackhawks, Patriot missiles, MQ-9, tomahawks and various munitions, M-16s. NATO’s SATCOM network largely American with NATO members paying USA for access And then there’s all the behind the scenes stuff like IT infrastructure, networking, data links etc plus all kinds of training and simulation gear. Quote
Army Guy Posted May 12 Report Posted May 12 6 hours ago, BeaverFever said: They buy a lot, especially the newest Eastern European members like Poland who practically has an all-American military As you know numerous EU countries bought F-35 and several currently operate F-16. The Aegis naval combat system, VLS and SM missiles are in wide use in Europe as are C-130, Chinook helicopters, some Blackhawks, Patriot missiles, MQ-9, tomahawks and various munitions, M-16s. NATO’s SATCOM network largely American with NATO members paying USA for access And then there’s all the behind the scenes stuff like IT infrastructure, networking, data links etc plus all kinds of training and simulation gear. Poland has purchased more equipment from South Korea than American....including aircraft.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_the_Polish_Armoured_Forces Yes F-35 are one purchase that makes sense as no one has gen 5 aircraft for sale other than the US, Russians, and Chinese....most of those F-16 owners are buying the F-35 which are few. and are replacing them with F-35's....But there are more Eurofighters in europe than American fighters...Not many Euro nations are using Aegis in fact i can't find any...most euro nations have the euro systems....germany UK, france etc...I think you'll find most nations still use the C-130, but in europe the A400M is becoming much more popular, even the UK has sold their C-130 fleet with Brazils new cargo aircraft also catching european eyes.. very few blackhawks....mostly NH90 European nations are also moving towards a european defence establishment, manufacturing their own weapons, moving away from american and with trump new policies that is really pushing them in that direction...And now that Carney is in Canada will be added to that list... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
August1991 Posted May 20 Report Posted May 20 (edited) On 5/12/2025 at 3:47 PM, Army Guy said: Poland has purchased more equipment from South Korea than American....including aircraft.... ..... AG, you prove the OP's point. ====== 1. When we buy stuff, we can't buy other stuff - or we borrow. 2. Why are we buying stuff? Edited May 20 by August1991 1 Quote
Army Guy Posted May 21 Report Posted May 21 On 5/19/2025 at 10:14 PM, August1991 said: AG, you prove the OP's point. ====== 1. When we buy stuff, we can't buy other stuff - or we borrow. 2. Why are we buying stuff? How did i do that he is saying europe buys 2/3 american equipment...when they don't europe has its' own growing defence industry....i can't make heads or tails out of the rest of your post. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
BeaverFever Posted May 23 Author Report Posted May 23 On 5/12/2025 at 3:47 PM, Army Guy said: Poland has purchased more equipment from South Korea than American....including aircraft.... That’s only a very recent development. On 5/12/2025 at 3:47 PM, Army Guy said: Not many Euro nations are using Aegis Spain, Norway have it already, Poland is on the works A number of countries have chinooks apaches,MQ9, patriot air defence, and/or have P8s on order. Not to mention various US sensors, systems, and other electronic “guts” On 5/12/2025 at 3:47 PM, Army Guy said: European nations are also moving towards a european defence establishment, manufacturing their own weapons, moving away from american and with trump new policies that is really pushing them in that direction...And now that Carney is in Canada will be added to that list... Yes I am excited for it, I hope it produces good results. Lots for these countries to figure out though. Quote
Army Guy Posted Sunday at 07:56 PM Report Posted Sunday at 07:56 PM On 5/23/2025 at 9:12 AM, BeaverFever said: That’s only a very recent development. Spain, Norway have it already, Poland is on the works A number of countries have chinooks apaches,MQ9, patriot air defence, and/or have P8s on order. Not to mention various US sensors, systems, and other electronic “guts” Yes I am excited for it, I hope it produces good results. Lots for these countries to figure out though. Sure it is, but when you look at the numbers of american equipment being sold in Europe, it is shrinking very fast... Well 3 out of dozens is not the majority...but rather a few countries... Yes they do , but Europe is also developing their own substitutes for many of American made weapons ...there will always be the exceptions. Trump pressure on Europe to become more self sufficient is going to hurt US weapon manufacture's... Not all European weapons are better than the US...Not sure why we are even looking at European fighters , no one is currently producing something better than the f-35...or why we are still looking at Conventional subs, that can not patrol our artic 365 days a year....Politics needs to stay out of procurement, their involvement should be limited to approving funding or strategic weapons purchases 15 years to buy a replacement pistol is insane....like canceling the F-35 is insane.... 1 Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
August1991 Posted Wednesday at 01:46 AM Report Posted Wednesday at 01:46 AM On 5/25/2025 at 3:56 PM, Army Guy said: ... Yes they do , but Europe is also developing their own substitutes for many of American made weapons ...there will always be the exceptions. Trump pressure on Europe to become more self sufficient is going to hurt US weapon manufacture's... Not all European weapons are better than the US... ... AG, define "Europe", China. This way of defining "teams" - it strikes me as typical American. Quote
Army Guy Posted Wednesday at 06:54 PM Report Posted Wednesday at 06:54 PM 17 hours ago, August1991 said: AG, define "Europe", China. This way of defining "teams" - it strikes me as typical American. Europe as the European union... It is a big team, family, union, group, one large nation, it can be described many ways...the fact is they are acting with one voice , one direction in this issue... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
August1991 Posted 5 hours ago Report Posted 5 hours ago On 5/28/2025 at 2:54 PM, Army Guy said: Europe as the European union... It is a big team, family, union, group, one large nation, it can be described many ways...the fact is they are acting with one voice , one direction in this issue... AG, Have you seen the recent US video? Quote
Army Guy Posted 5 hours ago Report Posted 5 hours ago 2 minutes ago, August1991 said: AG, Have you seen the recent US video? Not sure what your point is....is it getting rid of all the dei, INCLUSIVENESS, crap or that NATO is nothing without the US....The US is telling all NATO countries to buck up and start sharing in the cost to police the world....do you think thats a bad thing....Canadians talk a good game , except when they have to pay for it...now is the time to step up....Europe is preparing for war and we are still trying to find our ass with no arms or hands to speak of.... Thats not going to stop any Canadian government from sending our sons and daughters into a conflict we are not even ready to come out of the locker room yet...They will pay for our mistakes and laziness with their lives...I mean we did it for WWI, WWII, Korea, Afghanistan....why not the next conflict...it is cheaper to bury them than to provide them with the best equipment available....that is a Canadian value.... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
August1991 Posted 5 hours ago Report Posted 5 hours ago AG, You didn't write that much so fast. I used to trust you. Quote
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