Liberal party shows Ignorance and Arrogance

[Rovik]

There's no denying that the early years are critical in a child's development...early childhood education had always been there! Parents are still involved with their children! It's only the odd ones that don't really give a hoot!

This so-called "new" early childhood education being touted is nothing more than just practical understanding and practical approach to children....in a fancy packaging. And actually some of their methods are questionable! Some of their approach...especially when it comes to "discipline" suggests that either these new methods are engineered by those who don't understand children at all...or they're out to lunch!

In some public daycares, they do not want to be involved with any disciplinary methods at all. Some parents are called from work to handle their kid when the "teachers" cannot "reason" with a toddler.

It takes more than just having a diploma to be effective with children. Especially when the motivating factor in getting that diploma is a unionized job with excellent pay-rate.

Just because parents, who after have no other choice but to put their kids in daycare, (parents with two jobs for example) put their kids in daycare does not mean they don't give a hoot or are not involved with their children.

I just showed this to my friend (the ECE I talked about earlier) and she assures me that their are no questionable methods used where she works. Any "methods" are thoroughly discussed by the coordinators and the staff of each section (toddler, preschool, etc.) and they won't use methods just because they have been suggested in some book. They will use their experience and "common sense" in communicating and interacting with the children in the best way possible for the children. She also assures me that they do discipline children when necessary and she hasn't heard of a local daycare that does what you suggest about discipline. She feels that you are either misinformed about daycare or the daycares in your area are radically different then the ones here.

And lastly, most of the daycare jobs here in Newfoundland are privately based and these people make about $8-$9 dollars per hour with little benefits...not exactly a high pay-rate. There are a couple of public daycares in town but even then the rate is only around $10-$15 and again, they are in the minority. In fact, the daycare workers here are so underpaid that they receive a quarterly supplement of 4 to 5 hundred dollars to top up their salaries because the private daycares are not willing to increase wages (they claim they wouldn't profit otherwise.) And my friend says that she and her follow co-workers, if they were in it for the money, wouldn't be working at it. They are in it because they love their jobs and the satisfaction of helping a young person develop eventually into a loving adult.

[Canuck E Stan]

The yearly $1200 TAXED benefit will not help these people when daycare costs are often more than $500/month.

......and how much of the Liberal plan would cover that amount?

[August1991]

The people pushing institutionalized day care are not even attempting to argue that it's part of the educational system, merely that it is an alternative to a stay-at-home parent that should be susidized by the state. The operative word here is "care" which connotes a custodial, not an educational, function. What a parent does is to care for the kids, and that's what a day care service does too.

I disagree. I consider it an essential part of the educational system. A daycare teaches the children social skills and interaction. Children who attend daycare are more prepared for Kindergarden than children that haven't attended daycare. One could almost call it pre-Kindergarden.

By that logic, we should make day care compulsory - like primary school. All children should be required to go to day care centres.

Often you have both parents working and there is often no alternative, the only option would be to force one of the parents to give up working and perhaps even his/her career to look after the children. And in many cases, parents who have bills to pay can't afford to give up work. The yearly $1200 TAXED benefit will not help these people when daycare costs are often more than $500/month.

Of course two parents have to work because their take home pay is so low after all the taxes collected to pay for all the day care centres.

-----

A point ignored in this thread is that education is a provincial matter. By rights, the federal government should not be involved in this at all. Child care is a local issue and what works in PEI may not work in Saskatchewan.

Let's be honest. The Tories came up with this $1200 scheme to win votes, and it worked. People's distrust in government is so great that they only trust a cheque in the mail. Harper's main claim to fame will be that he delivered on his promise, and the promise was visible to everyone. The GST cut of 1% has a similar logic.

[Rovik]

The yearly $1200 TAXED benefit will not help these people when daycare costs are often more than $500/month.

......and how much of the Liberal plan would cover that amount?

I really don't know the details but I'm sure it would be more than that, depending on the demographics of an area. And the Liberal plan would also cover children above six years old, which isn't covered by the Conservative's plan, to help offset the costs of after-school programs for example.

By that logic, we should make day care compulsory - like primary school. All children should be required to go to day care centres

Well by your logic, government should make the eating of fruits and veggies, an essential food group, also compulsory. People, just as they have a choice to eat something good like fruits, also have a choice to use daycare if they so desire. But if they don't, well that's their choice.

A point ignored in this thread is that education is a provincial matter. By rights, the federal government should not be involved in this at all. Child care is a local issue and what works in PEI may not work in Saskatchewan.

If child care was completely up to the provinces, there would be huge disparities within Canada. I could see Alberta with top of the line daycares paying their workers $20/hour while in poorer provinces, the daycares would only be half as good and paying their workers $9/hour.

Let's be honest. The Tories came up with this $1200 scheme to win votes, and it worked. People's distrust in government is so great that they only trust a cheque in the mail. Harper's main claim to fame will be that he delivered on his promise, and the promise was visible to everyone. The GST cut of 1% has a similar logic.

I agree

[Hicksey]

Do we really expect anything different from the Liberal party? They're just plying their platform under which we're all bumbling idiots that need the government following a foot behind us to catch us before we fall.

The conservatives haven't done much better. They've selectively pandered to the average middle class parent and basically tried to buy their votes (a la the Liberals) with tax breaks for just about everything from having a kid to putting them in sports that they were perfectly happy to pay for before Harper came along to save the day.

So far Harper is a liberal with about a quarter of the arrogance.

[betsy]

A daycare teaches the children social skills and interaction. Children who attend daycare are more prepared for Kindergarden than children that haven't attended daycare. One could almost call it pre-Kindergarden.

And that isn't taught at home?

What is social skills? What is "interaction". You'd be surprised to know that these are just packaged words for simple manners, courtesy and intermingling with others....and you'd be surprised to know that as far as interaction goes, children had the natural instinct to get right into it!

These ECE grads should probably concentrate more in teaching kids how to dress up and button up! I cringed when I see kindergarten kids running around outside in the middle of winter with coats undone flapping about....with a teacher only a few feet away!

It used to be "children in Kindergarten are prepared for grade school".

Kindergarten is what the universal daycare is. So with universal daycare...what happens to Kindergarten???

Just a same-old extension of the babysitting club?

[Guest Warwick Green]

I disagree. I consider it an essential part of the educational system. A daycare teaches the children social skills and interaction. Children who attend daycare are more prepared for Kindergarden than children that haven't attended daycare. One could almost call it pre-Kindergarden.

We have gone all the way from day care being an undesirable but necessary service for working parents to something that is now claimed to be an "essential part of the educational system"

It's not going to be long before some Liberal leadership candidate wants to make day care mandatory since it is so integral to the child's upbringing.

What we are seeing here is the last gasp of the leftoids, knowing that as soon as the budget is passed there is never any chance of resurrecting the Martin day care program. And good riddance too. Parents wants day care - they pay for it!

[betsy]

Duffy jokingly referred to a feedback commenting the educational system is so entrenched with NDP-leaning teachers and so-called "educators" that they'd want to get hold of children as young as possible so they can be moulded to the NDP way of thinking. Of course the NDP strategist side-stepped this comment and didn't answer...switching instead to the well-rehearsed over-used line of reasoning.

[betsy]

This universal daycare is nothing more than a desperate vote-buying tool of the Liberals in their death throes.

Now, it is nothing more than another tool to criticize and find fault with the new government in the Liberal's life-after-death struggle.

[betsy]

Carolyn Bennett is pointing at the wrong direction if she wants to be over the top on her talk about mass production of future criminals!

She should be looking into the Liberal and NDP way of thinking and methods of so-called "deterrence."

I would only be happy to relate to you of idiotic ideas that came from these gov-funded agencies with ECE certificates! It is laughable...but at the same time makes you wanna cry because you know this is not a joking matter!

[Nocrap]

I CANNOT SAY THIS ENOUGH. WE ARE NOT COMPARING CHILDREN WHO ARE LOOKED AFTER BY A PARENT DURING THE DAY, TO CHILDREN WHO MUST BE LOOKED AFTER BY A NON-PARENT FOR THE PORTION OF THE DAY THAT THE PARENT OR PARENTS MUST WORK.

The CPC in their infinite wisdom believe in the nice June Cleaver approach to family life. However, we are not living in the 1950's and the reality is that there are many single parents who must work to provide for their family and many two-parent families who need both incomes. There are also many parents, both male and female who enjoy working and provide valuable services (doctors, nurses, etc.) to the community, and others who just prefer to work or are career driven moms and dads.

However, for whatever reason, WE HAVE WORKING PARENTS IN CANADA!!!!

That being said, I take offense to the CPC pitting working and stay at home parents against each other. Finley called on 'Family Values' groups to help her cause. Good Lord. Is she suggesting that a parent who wants to work does not value their family or does not have values?

And what's this crap about parents raising their own children? Just because you work does not mean that you are not 'raising your own children'. Providing the optimum care for your child while you are at work is a grave concern, and since it allows you to share the tax burden, it should be a priority of any government.

Providing a $653.00 (after taxes unless you're rich) yearly handout and calling it a childcare plan is ridiculous and will neither allow a parent to work or encourage them to stay home. It's a vote grab pure and simple and something that we will be stuck with for years. Thank God we can't say the same for the CPC.

[scribblet]

Duffy jokingly referred to a feedback commenting the educational system is so entrenched with NDP-leaning teachers and so-called "educators" that they'd want to get hold of children as young as possible so they can be moulded to the NDP way of thinking. Of course the NDP strategist side-stepped this comment and didn't answer...switching instead to the well-rehearsed over-used line of reasoning.

Agreed, Duffy was right on - when my kids were in school I always said that a parent has take the pre school years and innoculate the kids against the school system, before the system brainwashed them.

All this huffing and puffing about institutionalized day care is pandering to the left wing socialists who want a complete cradle to grave nanny-state. No thanks, I prefer the CPC plan anyday.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Duffy jokingly referred to a feedback commenting the educational system is so entrenched with NDP-leaning teachers and so-called "educators" that they'd want to get hold of children as young as possible so they can be moulded to the NDP way of thinking. Of course the NDP strategist side-stepped this comment and didn't answer...switching instead to the well-rehearsed over-used line of reasoning.

Another reason I don't want the government involved in day care. After they give you money then they tell you that you must have a "balanced" work force and start dictating to you what you can and not tell the kids.

[scribblet]

Exactly, not only that, the Tories campaigned on the $1,200 allocation , and are delivering immediatel the y. The Grits promised Sovietstyle child care but were unwilling to deliver for 13 years.

The Tory plan gives families a choice, while the Grits promised and didn't deliver for 13 years, and if they had there would have been no choice but Soviet type care. Parents want the right to choose, and the resources to exercise those choices.

[Nocrap]

Exactly, not only that, the Tories campaigned on the $1,200 allocation , and are delivering immediatel the y. The Grits promised Sovietstyle child care but were unwilling to deliver for 13 years.

The Tory plan gives families a choice, while the Grits promised and didn't deliver for 13 years, and if they had there would have been no choice but Soviet type care. Parents want the right to choose, and the resources to exercise those choices.

We've been down this road before. The CPC may have promised 1200.00 per year but since it's taxable only the wealthy 'breadwinner' with a stay at home spouse will realize 1200.00. The average working family will get about half that amount and the low income families will lose other benefits that are rolled into this plan. Therefore, their promise was not kept. The ONLY WAY THAT IT COULD BE KEPT IS IF THEY MADE THE BABY BONUS NON-TAXABLE FOR EVERYONE, NOT JUST THOSE WITH BIG FAT PAY CHEQUES. BUT THEN IT IS THOSE WITH BIG FAT PAY CHEQUES WHO CONTRIBUTE TO THE CPC, SO OF COURSE THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO WILL TRULY BENEFIT!!!

And this is choice?? Again, how much choice does the average working couple have with $54.00 per month or $ 2.45 per day?? The choice whether to stop at Timmy's for a cup of joe and a donut after you drop your kids off at daycare??

This illusive 1200 was a bold face lie and should have read 'somewhere between $650.00 and 1200.00' depending on income. Working stiffs half - Top execs with stay at home spouse, extra money for designer togs and ballet classes. Working poor - very little.

[Guest Warwick Green]

It's pathetic listening to Paul Martin talk about the "training" and "educative" value of day care when after years of promising it they only agreed to it after they were in a minority situation and they were pressured by the NDP and the Bloc.

The Libs still don't get it. It wasn't the concept of day care that was offensive to the public; it was that only those who chose to hand their kids off to a third-party should get a government subsidy.

[Black Dog]

By that logic, we should make day care compulsory - like primary school. All children should be required to go to day care centres.

Why? Why should it be either/or?

Let's be honest. The Tories came up with this $1200 scheme to win votes, and it worked. People's distrust in government is so great that they only trust a cheque in the mail. Harper's main claim to fame will be that he delivered on his promise, and the promise was visible to everyone. The GST cut of 1% has a similar logic.

I'll give you that: Harper is a master at capitalizing on people's short-sighted self interest.

Agreed, Duffy was right on - when my kids were in school I always said that a parent has take the pre school years and innoculate the kids against the school system, before the system brainwashed them.

Jesus Christ, you people need to make up your minds: is public education a glorified babysitting service turning out brainless hooligans or is it a leftist reeducation camp teaching kids the fine points of "political correctness"?

The Tory plan gives families a choice, while the Grits promised and didn't deliver for 13 years, and if they had there would have been no choice but Soviet type care. Parents want the right to choose, and the resources to exercise those choices.

Of course, no mention of how the Harper plan gives anyone any choice (or at least more choices than before: why not just be honest and say "The Tory plan gives parents a cheque.")or how the Liberal plan took away anybody's choices. Just empty rhetoric recycled from CPC campaign pamphlets.

(My new theory is that thr CPC and conservatives in general oppose childcare because they want more women to stay home in the kitchen wih the kids... )

[Hicksey]

The Tory plan gives families a choice, while the Grits promised and didn't deliver for 13 years, and if they had there would have been no choice but Soviet type care. Parents want the right to choose, and the resources to exercise those choices.

Of course, no mention of how the Harper plan gives anyone any choice (or at least more choices than before: why not just be honest and say "The Tory plan gives parents a cheque.")or how the Liberal plan took away anybody's choices. Just empty rhetoric recycled from CPC campaign pamphlets.

(My new theory is that thr CPC and conservatives in general oppose childcare because they want more women to stay home in the kitchen wih the kids... )

The Liberals plan didn't help lower to middle middle class families that didn't qualify for the subsidied child care rates and cannot afford the full rates. The conservative plan helps all families equally.

As for your theory. It couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd love to send my wife out to work. But I don't qualify for the subsidies and unless my wife gets a job making $11 or more its hardly worth it. Anything less than that and after taxes I am net paying to send her to work. That would be just stupid when I can have someone who really does care raise them.

Harper's plan isn't any more an answer than the Liberals plan. But at least I can benefit from it, as opposed to the Liberal plan.

[Guest Warwick Green]

Duffy was right on - when my kids were in school I always said that a parent has take the pre school years and innoculate the kids against the school system, before the system brainwashed them.

When I was a kid the saying was: "You get an education in spite of going to school".

[Black Dog]

The Liberals plan didn't help lower to middle middle class families that didn't qualify for the subsidied child care rates and cannot afford the full rates. The conservative plan helps all families equally.

Or, to be technical, gives the same amount of money to all families. Whethe rthat actually helps or not is another story...

As for your theory. It couldn't be farther from the truth. I'd love to send my wife out to work. But I don't qualify for the subsidies and unless my wife gets a job making $11 or more its hardly worth it. Anything less than that and after taxes I am net paying to send her to work. That would be just stupid when I can have someone who really does care raise them.

You'd love tyo send your wife out? That's mighty big of you. What does she want?

Harper's plan isn't any more an answer than the Liberals plan. But at least I can benefit from it, as opposed to the Liberal plan

And that's what it comes down to: "what can I get out of it?" It doesn't matter that it's a transparent ploy that will not have any real impact on the quality or accessibility of the childcare other people's kids recieve; what matters is that it's money in the pocket. I'm starting to think that the conservative opposition to handouts has nothing to do witrh "big government" or fiscal prudence, but more to do with wanting a piece of the action.

[Hicksey]

Duffy was right on - when my kids were in school I always said that a parent has take the pre school years and innoculate the kids against the school system, before the system brainwashed them.

When I was a kid the saying was: "You get an education in spite of going to school".

Its still that way today. They won't even tell you what your kid is struggling with on his report card so you can work on it at home too. I literally had to go to both of my kids teachers, schedule a meeting and ask them. They didn't want to say anything about it when I got there. I was flabbergasted. I flat out told them. You're teaching my kids every day. You know what their strong and weak points are. I want to know so I can work on it at home. One told me that they like to "focus on the positives." What idiots. If you don't recognize their weaknesses how can you address them?

[Black Dog]

Its still that way today. They won't even tell you what your kid is struggling with on his report card so you can work on it at home too. I literally had to go to both of my kids teachers, schedule a meeting and ask them. They didn't want to say anything about it when I got there. I was flabbergasted. I flat out told them. You're teaching my kids every day. You know what their strong and weak points are. I want to know so I can work on it at home. One told me that they like to "focus on the positives." What idiots. If you don't recognize their weaknesses how can you address them?

And yet to some, these "idiots" are suppossedly masters of mind control and-what's the pet phrase again? Oh yeah- social engineering. You guys realy need to pick a meme and stick with it.

[Hicksey]

Its still that way today. They won't even tell you what your kid is struggling with on his report card so you can work on it at home too. I literally had to go to both of my kids teachers, schedule a meeting and ask them. They didn't want to say anything about it when I got there. I was flabbergasted. I flat out told them. You're teaching my kids every day. You know what their strong and weak points are. I want to know so I can work on it at home. One told me that they like to "focus on the positives." What idiots. If you don't recognize their weaknesses how can you address them?

And yet to some, these "idiots" are suppossedly masters of mind control and-what's the pet phrase again? Oh yeah- social engineering. You guys realy need to pick a meme and stick with it.

That's just my experience. The people who whine about 'social engineering' are just a bunch of zealots that are afraid they're not doing an adequate job of projecting their beliefs to their children. And even then, when they get of age they will ultimately make up their own minds. So all the whining is hardly worth it.

[gerryhatrick]

More rightwing nitwittery. Nothing's changed.

[shoop]

Do you always have to attack without adding anything to the discussion?

More rightwing nitwittery. Nothing's changed.