Ex-Gays

[Riverwind]

I'am not saying there is some sort of genetic imbalance that exist but in the majority of cases this could be overcome.

Why should they? Being gay does not hurt anybody. Unlike smoking it is not a health risk in itself (health risks created by promiscuity are a problem for gays and straight people and cannot be described as a 'gay' problem).

[betsy]

I agree that there are gays who became such because...they simply are.

However, I also believe that some gays THINK they are...and/or HAD CONVINCED themselves that they are...for whatever reasons that they have....stemming from whatever experiences they might have had...and most likely this goes all the way back from adolescence ( when experimentations with sensuality start to occur).

It is not uncommon for an adolescent or young teen to be seduced into a gay relationship and by nature, at that age....anything sensual I guess is intriguingly welcomed. Sometimes this can cause confusion for the boy...especially if pleasure was derived from it. Do we then say that he is gay because he felt pleasure from it? No.

But some boys end up carrying this confusion all the way to adulthood...what more if for some reasons, he's having problems with women.

It depends on the individual I guess. That's why, unless there is an extensive research done about it covering all areas that may affect or influence or have an impact, whether psychological or otherwise....we cannot establish a conclusion. At this point, we have to acknowledge that there might be other possibilities.

[Leafless]

Riverwind

You wrote- " Being gay does not hurt anybody. Unlike smolking it is not a health risk in itself ( health risk are created by promiscuity are a problem for gays and straight people and cannot be described as a gay problem."

My comparison to smoking was the detirmination it takes to quit smolking as to the detirmination it could take some homosexuals to realign themselves to heterosexuality, nothing to do with health risk.

But now that yopu mention it the killer disease AIDS is a homosexual problem.

It can be spread by heterosexuals who have been infected previously by bi-sexuals and infected needles (drug use) and kills far more, I believe homosexuals, than heterosexuals.

I don't really want to get into statistics as I have seen them all before and don't really want to open this argument again. Just giving you my two cents worth on the intial topic.

[BubberMiley]

It can be spread by heterosexuals who have been infected previously by bi-sexuals and infected needles (drug use) and kills far more, I believe homosexuals, than heterosexuals.

Actually it kills more heterosexual women and children than anyone. But, again, you enjoy opinions that aren't based on facts.

http://www.worldvision.org.nz/news/archive...20020717-01.asp

[Riverwind]

My comparison to smoking was the determination it takes to quit smoking as to the determination it could take some homosexuals to realign themselves to heterosexuality, nothing to do with health risk.

You did not answer my question: why should anyone who thinks they are gay have to change?

But now that you mention it the killer disease AIDS is a homosexual problem.

The rate of of AIDS among lesbians is lower than any other segment of the population. AIDS is not a homosexual problem - it is a problem caused by promiscuity.

[betsy]

The rate of of AIDS among lesbians is lower than any other segment of the population. AIDS is not a homosexual problem - it is a problem caused by promiscuity.

AIDS was a homosexual problem....but not anymore. Now, it's everyone's problem.

"HOMOSEXUALITY IS A PROMISCUOUS LIFESTYLE

Homosexuals argue that their relationships are as deep and committed as those within a legal marriage. This is not the case.

Promiscuity is an inherent aspect of homosexuality. Although a few homosexuals maintain stable, monogamous relationships, these are rare exceptions.

In particular, male homosexuals show a high degree of promiscuity as indicated by the following seminal studies:

• A 1981 study found that only 2% of homosexuals could be classified as monogamous or semi-monogamous (10 or fewer partners); (A.P. Bell, M.S. Weinberg, and S.K. Hammersmith, Sexual Preferences, Indiana University Press, Bloomington, Indiana 1981, pp. 308-309.)

• A 1978 study (A.P. Bell and M.S. Weinberg, Homosexuality: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1978, pp. 308-309) found that:

a) 43% of white male homosexuals estimated that they had sex with 500 or more partners.

28% reported having more than 1000 partners.

A study (A.P. Bell and M.S. Weinberg, Homosexuality: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women, Simon and Schuster, New York, 1978,pp. 308-309) by the American Psychological Association found that:

• 79% of homosexuals said that more than half their partners were strangers;

• 70% of homosexuals said more than half their partners were men with whom they had sex only once;

• due to the AIDS epidemic, homosexual promiscuity manifested itself in n average of 50 partners per year (vs. 70).

These studies and the views expressed by leaders of the homosexual movement today indicate clearly that homosexuals do not wish to conform to the traditional understanding of marriage - that is, faithfulness and commitment to one partner for life.

Ken Popert, homosexual activist, editor of Toronto's homosexual magazine Xtra and lover of Brian Mossop (who argued before the Supreme Court of Canada that their relationship constituted a family) stated:

I am in a web of relationships but there is no centre and no boundaries. It's not structured and institutionalized the way the family is. Each person can feel at the centre of it -- because in fact, it has no centre. (Globe and Mail, June 27, 1992)

Brian Mossop, his partner at the time, stated:

I don't believe in the concept of family. The only useful purpose it serves is that it provides a method of distributing benefits. (Western Report, March 15, 1993)

The reason why homosexual relationships are so promiscuous can best be explained by a regular columnist, Andrew Griffin, in the homosexual newspaper, Capital Xtra. In the June 23, 2000 issue, Mr. Griffin explains homosexuality to us. He states:

Because in the end, being gay is all about getting and giving a good f…. It is about seeing members of the same sex as sources of pleasure, not potential enemies and competitors.

Mr. Griffin has written many other articles explaining to his readers the "joys' of sexual encounters in the semi-darkness of a gay bathhouse where most frequently, sexual encounters take place between complete strangers.

It is obvious from other articles that homosexuals accept promiscuity as an essential part of their orientation, and this is the case even in their so-called "long-term" relationships."

http://www.realwomenca.com/newsletter/2000...article_10.html

[Riverwind]

AIDS was a homosexual problem....but not anymore. Now, it's everyone's problem.

AIDS came from Africa where it was always a hetrosexual problem.

"HOMOSEXUALITY IS A PROMISCUOUS LIFESTYLE

Homosexuals include lesbians. This study only talks about men and therefore does not make the point you think it makes.

The promiscuity amoung gay men is one of the key reasons why society should accept gay marriages: providing social sanctions to monogamous gay relationship would help curb the 'screw everything that moves' instinct that is in every male (gay or straight).

[betsy]

AIDS came from Africa where it was always a hetrosexual problem.

I guess you're right that in Africa, heterosexuals were the victims.

But in America, it started among gays.

"AIDS: A Doctor’s Note on the Man-Made Theory

By ALAN CANTWELL, J.R, M.D.

When AIDS officially began in 1981 the public was told that anal sex, drugs, and homosexuality were at the root of the new "gay plague." The first cases were all young, predominantly white, and previously healthy homosexual men from Manhattan who were dying mysteriously from "gay pneumonia" and "gay cancer" in the form of Kaposi’s sarcoma. The association with homosexuality was so remarkable that the disease was initially termed GRID ("gay-related immune deficiency"). To this day, gays are still blamed for the spread of AIDS into the U.S. population.

When the disease first broke out, a new virus was suspected, but officials reassured "the general public" there was nothing to worry about. Of course, the health experts were wrong. Now most of the world’s AIDS cases are heterosexuals. The AIDS virus (HIV) can also be transmitted vaginally; and one does not need to be a drug abuser, a promiscuous person or a homosexual to contract AIDS."

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/46a.htm

--------------------

"INDEPTH: AIDS

AIDS in the 21st Century

Sean Hosein, Special for CBC News Online | Updated September 22, 2003

A Snapshot in Time

In 1981, doctors in New York and Los Angeles noticed that increasing numbers of previously healthy young men were seeking help for symptoms that included severe weight loss, virulent herpes infections, life-threatening lung and brain infections and previously rare cancers. Around the same time, doctors in France, Zaire and Haiti also noticed a similar syndrome in both men and women.

The remarkable thing that all these patients had in common was that they were all dying from infections to which most healthy people were already immune. The doctors were puzzled because they could find no obvious cause for this new syndrome. If a line can be drawn in time, then 1981 marks the official beginning of what has come to be known as the AIDS epidemic."

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/aids/aids.html

[BubberMiley]

Male homosexuals are promiscuous because they're men. If we heterosexual men had the advantage of equally willing partners, I'm sure we would behave in just the same way.

[betsy]

Male homosexuals are promiscuous because they're men. If we heterosexual men had the advantage of equally willing partners, I'm sure we would behave in just the same way.

Assuming that your theory is true....it only explains why homosexuals have a promiscuous lifestyle.

[Riverwind]

Assuming that your theory is true....it only explains why homosexuals have a promiscuous lifestyle.

Again, you are making the mistake of assuming that all homosexuals are promiscuous males - you are ignoring all of the homosexual women who do not live that lifestyle.

Now we probably agree that promiscuous lifestyle is bad for anyone regardless of sexual orientation. So which of the following do you think has a higher chance of getting promiscuous males to show some restraint:

1) Convince them that they are not really gay and simply have to 'kick the habit'.

2) Accept gay marriages as a social institution and encourage gays to have long term monogamous relationships.

[Slavik44]

Sexuality is a choice.

So is breathing

Sexuality is something learned and taught mainly by society and your parents. Girls play with dolls and boys play with trucks.

No its not, I never took you for a radical feminist. But to be honest with you, your full of shit. But on the brightside I can use your favourite book the bible to disprove you and I can use science. Genisis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them." So according to the bible, God didn't create a unisexual android, your God, the one that you belive in created two distinct Genders. From the Scientific point of view a multitude of studies have been done, that look at how the male and female Brain function, the end result, is that they respond to stimuli in different ways. You cannot change a girls Brain by making her play with a hammer, well okay if she hits her self on the head really hard her brain may respond ot stimuli differently, like not at all.

Being raised in an effiminate manner from childhood would contribute greatly contribute to homosexuality or being left alone without guidence to detirmine your preference concerning your own personal sexuality

Are there not Macho gays out there? I am really not interested in typing Macho gays into google but I would be fairly certain, that somewhere out there, there would be macho Gays. What about submissive Lesbians? If a Lesbian is a Girl that was raised a guy, why would there be submissive Lesbians, or girly Lesbians and I am pretty sure I have heard of submissive Lesbians. What about girls that behave in a masculine way but are still hetrosexual, I know for sure they exist. And what about Metrosexual guys? They can't all be closet gays can they? The fact is both Homosexual and Hetrosexual people have a multitude of different personalities, not all of them talk in that gay voice. This is simply absurd. It has been prooven there are differences in how males and females respond to stimuli, I also recall a study that pointed out a homosexual's brain responded to certain scents differntly then that of their hetrosexual counter part. I also recall a study of idtentical twins that were raised in dfferent households, and yes you guessed it if one was gay there was a higher then average chance that the other would also be gay. Obvoiusly there will always be debate as to wether homoesxuality is entirely genetic and/or how much of a role environment plays in Human Sexual Orientation. But I think you have gone past the point of reasonable and rationale debate and into a level of absurdity.

[betsy]

Assuming that your theory is true....it only explains why homosexuals have a promiscuous lifestyle.

Again, you are making the mistake of assuming that all homosexuals are promiscuous males - you are ignoring all of the homosexual women who do not live that lifestyle.

Now we probably agree that promiscuous lifestyle is bad for anyone regardless of sexual orientation. So which of the following do you think has a higher chance of getting promiscuous males to show some restraint:

1) Convince them that they are not really gay and simply have to 'kick the habit'.

2) Accept gay marriages as a social institution and encourage gays to have long term monogamous relationships.

Why would marriage change that? We've had marriage among heterosexuals...and look, we're also having this problem now.

As I've said, everyone is facing this problem. All we can do is keep informing the public...the rest is up to each individual. You cannot force people to conform and change their lifestyles...same as you cannot change an alcoholic by force. The personal decision and the determination will have to come from within...voluntarily. Otherwise, it won't work.

Look at the news about the rising problems of AIDS in the gay community again...I had posted the link in one of the previous gay-related debates. The younger gays are suffering from what they termed as "fatigue"....a condition that got them so sick and tired of being informed that they no longer seem to care.

[betsy]

Assuming that your theory is true....it only explains why homosexuals have a promiscuous lifestyle.

Again, you are making the mistake of assuming that all homosexuals are promiscuous males - you are ignoring all of the homosexual women who do not live that lifestyle.

Now we probably agree that promiscuous lifestyle is bad for anyone regardless of sexual orientation. So which of the following do you think has a higher chance of getting promiscuous males to show some restraint:

1) Convince them that they are not really gay and simply have to 'kick the habit'.

2) Accept gay marriages as a social institution and encourage gays to have long term monogamous relationships.

Why don't you just tell them not to forget to use their condoms???

And if you're female or a "receptacle" or whatever...just insist on the condom!

[betsy]

Assuming that your theory is true....it only explains why homosexuals have a promiscuous lifestyle.

Again, you are making the mistake of assuming that all homosexuals are promiscuous males - you are ignoring all of the homosexual women who do not live that lifestyle.

Now we probably agree that promiscuous lifestyle is bad for anyone regardless of sexual orientation. So which of the following do you think has a higher chance of getting promiscuous males to show some restraint:

1) Convince them that they are not really gay and simply have to 'kick the habit'.

2) Accept gay marriages as a social institution and encourage gays to have long term monogamous relationships.

Why don't you just tell them not to forget to use their condoms???

And if you're female or a "receptacle" or whatever...just insist on the condom!

And let's not forget about the needle-sharing. Not only for drugs...but anywhere from tattooing, piercing etc.., Make sure they're safe!

[Black Dog]

The ex-gays I know are NO longer homosexual. They are married with children. I find it insulting that you believe you have the right to speak for them and assume they weren't homosexual to begin with. I can assure you they were and have chosen to leave that lifestyle.

So if someone goes from being married with children to gay, does that make him or her an "ex-straight"? Or maybe human sexuality is not fluid, but how it is expressed is. What that means is they may have chosen to leave the lifestyle but I expect in the vast majority of cases, thay are simply liying to themselves.

Please people we're not talking about "discrimination". Let's keep the "same old, same old" out of here. We're talking about if homosexuality is innate or not. And the complete lack of mention or support for ex-gays in our society. We even have people denying their existance! Come on people. Stop thinking so rigidly and open your mind to the other side of the issue at hand.

The problem with the concept of ex-gays is that it's usually used by kooks who try to paint homosexuality as a disorder, a curable one at that. despite teh paranoid rheetoric of the religious right, no one tries to turn straights gay, yet there seems to be quite a fascination with turning gays straight. It's interesting to that the methods used to turn people straight are usually quite deplorable. The people peddling that bunk are just preying on people's insecurities.

In that university I belonged to a dance troupe. Our choreographer/teacher was openly gay...and majority of the main male cast in this troupe were gays. New dancers regularly joined the troupe for it was a way of avoiding a not so popular project imposed by the government. We've noticed that men who joined and regularly hanged around with the choreographer and other gay dancers eventually ended up developing feminine traits and gay mannerisms after a few months or so....and that includes going through the motion of swooning over a male that got their attention!

We even openly joked about it: the dance troupe is a gay-maker! They come in straight...they walk out gay.

That happens with any social group. A lot of "gay mannerisms" are just affectations anyway. The only real mannerism that determine if someone is gay is that whole "having sex with someone of the same sex" thing.

back to NDP

Yes animals do practice this, but they also kill too. Does that make killing right? (just an example) I don't usually like to compare animals to humans since we as humans are considerably more advanced with social standings, language, intuition, etc.. But, that is for ANOTHER thread. Not this one. XD

Uh...didn't you say:

Please people we're not talking about "discrimination". Let's keep the "same old, same old" out of here. We're talking about if homosexuality is innate or not.

Therefore, whethe rit is "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant. Stick to the topic, please!

I'm not sure about the medication end of this (seems highly odd) but I do concur homosexuals seem to be most fervant in accepting the view that being homosexual is innate.

Yeah people can get pretty funy when you tell them that their sexuality and very identity are up for grabs.

And yes, someone becoming an ex-gay being accused of never truly being gay at all is really REALLY presumptious

If a man leaves his wife for a man, is it persumptuous to assume that he was never really straight?

You'd be surprised how easily it is to brainwash people. If someone, for example, has low selfesteem (not saying it is your case, do not assume that) was violated when he/she was young, was treated poorly all his/her life, a person like that seems ripe for brainwashing into anything. (no, I'm not saying homosexuality specifically, but that brainwashing is quite prevelant in our society)

See: "conversion therapy".

lol Liam. Why are you bringing God into this? You think it is always Christians who do not agree with the homosexual philosophy? That's silly. You think the only "ex-gay" community is some Church group? You think people become an ex-gay because they're under pressure to do so? That's silly. You're making so many assumptions there.

Most "gay conversion" pushers are religious groups. And yeah, there's huge pressure on gays to be straight.

Edite dto add: Always happy to link to this. (NSFW)

[Liam]

... However, I also believe that some gays THINK they are...and/or HAD CONVINCED themselves that they are...for whatever reasons that they have....stemming from whatever experiences they might have had...and most likely this goes all the way back from adolescence ( when experimentations with sensuality start to occur).

It is not uncommon for an adolescent or young teen to be seduced into a gay relationship and by nature, at that age....anything sensual I guess is intriguingly welcomed. Sometimes this can cause confusion for the boy...especially if pleasure was derived from it. Do we then say that he is gay because he felt pleasure from it? No.

But some boys end up carrying this confusion all the way to adulthood...what more if for some reasons, he's having problems with women...

I hope no one interprets my comments as disrespectful in any way. I truly do not intend to offend or be obnoxious.

OK, Betsy, by this logic, would it not also make sense then that someone who is gay can be seduced at a young age into believing he is straight? I can vouch for the fact -- based on my experience and those of countless gay men I know. Seriously, I can only think of one or two gay men I know who *never* tried to be straight.

Society is overwhelmingly geared toward validating the "straight" life: weddings, proms, dating reality TV shows, high school dances, gender-specific organizations from infancy through adulthood, etc. Gay people learn from a very young age that they do not fit in, that they need to adapt to the majority view. Like a member of a minority group who can see racism in certain things, gay people can see that they are continuously exposed to societal conventions that reinforce a type of life that they cannot connect with. Perhaps straight people just see this as "life" and not something they need to be conscious of?

Back to my point, gay people are often socialized into trying to be straight, particularly when they hit adolescence and all the boys and girls start dating and having crushes. I'd guess that close to 90% of gay people try to, or at least pretend to, be straight at some point in their lives. If seduction into a certain lifestyle was possible, would it not be logical that the overwhelming majority of people who allow themselves to be seduced into a life that is wrong for them be gay people who try to conform to the social majority? If *any* young people allow themselves to be seduced into living a gay life, I cannot imagine that it's more than a handful -- in the scheme of things.

[betsy]

OK, Betsy, by this logic, would it not also make sense then that someone who is gay can be seduced at a young age into believing he is straight? I can vouch for the fact -- based on my experience and those of countless gay men I know. Seriously, I can only think of one or two gay men I know who *never* tried to be straight.

Society is overwhelmingly geared toward validating the "straight" life: weddings, proms, dating reality TV shows, high school dances, gender-specific organizations from infancy through adulthood, etc. Gay people learn from a very young age that they do not fit in, that they need to adapt to the majority view. Like a member of a minority group who can see racism in certain things, gay people can see that they are continuously exposed to societal conventions that reinforce a type of life that they cannot connect with. Perhaps straight people just see this as "life" and not something they need to be conscious of?

Back to my point, gay people are often socialized into trying to be straight, particularly when they hit adolescence and all the boys and girls start dating and having crushes. I'd guess that close to 90% of gay people try to, or at least pretend to, be straight at some point in their lives. If seduction into a certain lifestyle was possible, would it not be logical that the overwhelming majority of people who allow themselves to be seduced into a life that is wrong for them be gay people who try to conform to the social majority? If *any* young people allow themselves to be seduced into living a straight life, I cannot imagine that it's more than a handful -- in the scheme of things.

Oh I'd easily asume overwhelming percentage of adoloscents had been seduced by opposite sex...including young people who'd grown up to be gays. I am not excluding that possibility. Some comes through the form of "experimentation"...even among children (although innocently they do not associate it with the term "sex").

It is particularly hard for gays hitting adolescence to try to "fit in"....like we see nerds and "misfits"...for don't we understand all about peers...and how insensitive and cruel young people can be.

As for seduction into a a certain lifestyle...I know for a fact that in some exclusive girls school...experimentation with lesbianism is common. For some, it's even like a badge of "sophistication".

A good friend of mine had come from such schools and regaled us "provincials" with stories that you bet, shocked us.

Not all youth seduced into such relationship end up getting confused. It depends on the individual...who knows what he/she may be going through at the moment...or whatever other circumstances...that all come into play to form that confusion.

As I say, it is a strong possibility. Unless research prove it wrong...that possibility exist in much the very same equal way that the possibility exists homosexuality could be innate.

[Black Dog]

As for seduction into a a certain lifestyle...I know for a fact that in some exclusive girls school...experimentation with lesbianism is common. For some, it's even like a badge of "sophistication".

A good friend of mine had come from such schools and regaled us "provincials" with stories that you bet, shocked us.

Homosexual encounters are common in such environments (Boys or girls schools, the military, prison...)

Having a homosexual sexual encounter doesn't make someone gay, however. You fix one sink, that doesn't make you a plumber.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Black Dog,

Having a homosexual sexual encounter doesn't make someone gay, however. You fix one sink, that doesn't make you a plumber.

Tee hee. The way I have heard it told, as to how unfair 'labels' can be, "You can screw a hundred girls, but you suck one cock and everyone calls you gay".

[Liam]

Homosexual encounters are common in such environments (Boys or girls schools, the military, prison...)

Having a homosexual sexual encounter doesn't make someone gay, however. You fix one sink, that doesn't make you a plumber.

Exactly. I think a lot of straight people confuse performing certain acts (or simply stopping the performance of them) with having a particular orientation. (And I think that might explain the emphatic nature of my posts against the "ex gay" movement earlier in the thread. And I think it might explain the "we just don't know" arguments of those who think that gay orientation can be changed.)

It is entirely possible for a sophomore at an all-women's college to engage in certain acts with her classmates for a semester or two. That does not make her the next Ellen DeGeneris. A man in the armed services can bond with his mates and maybe get drunk and dabble a handful of times while on leave. That does not make him gay. What makes someone gay is having an inner gay identity -- an identity that makes him or her have attractions for members of the same gender. It does not mean experimenting (and possibly even getting a lot of pleasure from "crossing a line"), there is more to it than that. And that's why I am emphatic in my posts that orientation is not something that can be "cured" or changed.

While I don't agree 100% with the content in the attached link, as a gay man who tried to be a straight man, I think it pretty much sums up much of my position on the issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-gay

[Army Guy]

BD:

Homosexual encounters are common in such environments (Boys or girls schools, the military, prison...)

Having a homosexual sexual encounter doesn't make someone gay, however. You fix one sink, that doesn't make you a plumber.

Just curious on how the miltary got added to your list, Because the military has always been Homophobic in regards to male gay members. Lesbians on the other hand seem to be attracted to the military for some reason. And are somewhat excepted, however Gay males in is a different story Up until very recently it was don't ask don't tell, even in todays army it is a carear ender for males.

A man in the armed services can bond with his mates and maybe get drunk and dabble a handful of times while on leave. That does not make him gay.

Military members do bond together in a brotherly way, part of that bond includes trusting that indiv with your life, most and i said most know there is a line not to be crossed, and having a gay sexual experiance is crossing that line. Crossing that line would be a carear ender for a male. And would end that trust needed when your job includes having someone elses life in your hands.

Yes there are rules and regulations regarding harrassment and discrimanation but in a 98 % male dominated ocupation those rules are bent alittle in regards to treatment of Male gays. And they don't last long in the army...I'm not saying thier are no male Gays in the army, there just not in the army for very long.

So to answer your quote Yes it does make him gay, or atleast bi sexual, either way this indiv will not be long in the Army.

[Black Dog]

Just curious on how the miltary got added to your list, Because the military has always been Homophobic in regards to male gay members. Lesbians on the other hand seem to be attracted to the military for some reason. And are somewhat excepted, however Gay males in is a different story Up until very recently it was don't ask don't tell, even in todays army it is a carear ender for males.

The military is quite homophobic in regards to open homosexuality: but my reading is that gay encounters are one of those things that happens, but no one talks about much. This has been the case since the time of the Spartans (who actively encouraged homosexuality in the ranks).

Military members do bond together in a brotherly way, part of that bond includes trusting that indiv with your life, most and i said most know there is a line not to be crossed, and having a gay sexual experiance is crossing that line. Crossing that line would be a carear ender for a male. And would end that trust needed when your job includes having someone elses life in your hands.

I dunno: as I alluded to above, some ancient societies promoted homosexuality as a means of bolstering a unit's fighting spirit (the theory being that a man would fight harder for his lover than his mere comrade). I don't see how homosexuality could denude a unit of its morale.

Basically, in an exclusively male institution like the military has traditionally been, it doesn't take much to cross the line from brothers-n-arms to lovers.

So to answer your quote Yes it does make him gay, or atleast bi sexual, either way this indiv will not be long in the Army.

No it doesn't. As for the policy of drumming people out for being gay, must be a luxury of peace time: in world war two, for instance, the de facto policy was to ignore or deny homosexual behavior unless the individuals involved were otherwise a problem.

[Liam]

Just curious on how the miltary got added to your list...

In the case of my reply, I threw the military in there since it is probably the highest profile almost-all-male environment. I was not implying that gay activity is condoned or that a life in the military necessarily includes the occasional dabble with same-gender activity -- actually, quite the opposite is true in the US. That said, I do know of a few guys who were once in the Marines or the Navy (now civilians) and who are now living with boyfriends and/or frequenting gay bars and clubs. They are way in the minority of all servicemen, and given military members' protectiveness of their institution, I don't want to fan the flames and probably should have used a different environment as an example. A fraternity or all-male college, for example, would have served as good an environment for my argument.

[Liam]

So to answer your quote Yes it does make him gay, or atleast bi sexual, either way this indiv will not be long in the Army.

Would you say that Liberace was straight (or bi) if on one occasion he got really drunk and thought, "I've never kissed a girl -- what the heck? -- let me just see what this is about," when given the chance to sleep with a woman? It wouldn't make him straight since his inclination and desires are to be exclusively with other men. If he had some inclination to be with women as well as men, I'd say he was bi. But just messing around with someone of the same gender once (or even a few times or even dozens of times) does not make that person gay if his or her inclination is to be exclusively with someone of the opposite gender.