Ex-Gays

[betsy]

I do believe though that there are also those who are not really gays. It can be acquired through association...and for people who falls under this category, I assume that you can as easily drop it too.

The gays that you've encountered were most probably not really gays....

In that university I belonged to a dance troupe. Our choreographer/teacher was openly gay...and majority of the main male cast in this troupe were gays. New dancers regularly joined the troupe for it was a way of avoiding a not so popular project imposed by the government. We've noticed that men who joined and regularly hanged around with the choreographer and other gay dancers eventually ended up developing feminine traits and gay mannerisms after a few months or so....and that includes going through the motion of swooning over a male that got their attention!

We even openly joked about it: the dance troupe is a gay-maker! They come in straight...they walk out gay.

I should add that during that time, it was "cool" to hang out with gays....and more "cool" to learn and use their lingo.

[sharkman]

It is completely irrelevant whether gays are gays are gay by choice or not, and the only people who make it an issue, are those who seek some basis to discrimminate.

Just an aside, but this statement is completely wrong. Gays are some of the most fervent supporters of the idea that gaydom is not a choice.

One guy I know used to be gay. His experience was that he was molested repeatedly by his foster mother and the experience caused him to experiment, and then become gay. Several years ago, after a life time of battlling with his inner attraction to men, a doctor gave him a prescription that ended this attraction. I found his story quite weird, but he is an upstanding person and has no doubt about how it all happened.

The idea that if you were able to 'kick' the habit you were not really gay makes too many assumptions to be taken seriously.

[Liam]

Wow. All I can say is I'm shocked. You are saying there is no such thing as an ex-gay. Only because you feel there was no such thing in your case. You are using a sense of what you feel instead of real intellictual reason. You are assuming just because you seem to be unable to turn away from your homosexuality, ALL homosexuals are locked-in to the same fate. So, if I was into beastilaity and all society said it was OK, that means I was born like this and there's no way around it? (this is an example) Don't you see, 100 years ago this open-gayness was less present. (yes, I know there were homosexuals then too) This was due to social circumstances of the time. It was illegal and viewed as innately corrupt. Now, in today's society, it is much more accepted. Thus we see many more homosexuals in open (and perhaps more than ever) The ex-gays I know are NO longer homosexual. They are married with children. I find it insulting that you believe you have the right to speak for them and assume they weren't homosexual to begin with. I can assure you they were and have chosen to leave that lifestyle.

Can I be more clear than by saying that abosuletly NO ONE can change his or her orientation? So, yes, I say there is no such thing as ex-gay. Absolutely not at all. Anyone who claims to be ex-gay is lying to himself/herself.

Ask yourself this -- if heterosexuality was suddenly out of vogue, and bear with me here... even to the point where there were criminal sanctions imposed on those who tried to engage in sexual activities with members of the opposite sex... and lets further assume that you could suffer the situation and engage in physical relations with someone of the same gender, would that make you any less straight than you are now? Would you *truly* be able to turn off what you were in your earlier life to be what society expected of you? That's what these so-called "ex gays" are doing. They are compromising who thye are to live the life that society deems to be a "moral" amd "wholesome". But they are in denial.

ALL homosexuals are locked into their sexuality. As are ALL heterosexuals. All the prayer in the world has about as much as chance as turning a gay man straight as would turn a straight man gay. What I am saying is not at all based on what I feel, but on what I know from experience, both my own and that of my friends.

Personally, I find it insulting that you can even dare to speak on this issue at all. I was married. I have children. I tried to live the straight life. I have many friends who also tried to live a straight life. The people who claim to have left that "lifestyle" behind are full of sh*t. "Ex gays" are still the people they were born to be, only they have made a deal with the devil to put aside their true feelings and deny who they are all in a lame effort to gain social acceptance. Mark my words, they'll be "gay" again some day. I will wager any amount of money. Any day. Any time. Anywhere. You name the price, you name the conditions. I will bet you and I will win. Hands down. No question. No doubt.

They can no more become straight than a straight person can be become gay. A leopard cannot change its spots. It can pretend it's no longer a leopard but it cannot change what it truly is.

[Liam]

I do believe though that there are also those who are not really gays. It can be acquired through association...and for people who falls under this category, I assume that you can as easily drop it too.

The gays that you've encountered were most probably not really gays....

In that university I belonged to a dance troupe. Our choreographer/teacher was openly gay...and majority of the main male cast in this troupe were gays. New dancers regularly joined the troupe for it was a way of avoiding a not so popular project imposed by the government. We've noticed that men who joined and regularly hanged around with the choreographer and other gay dancers eventually ended up developing feminine traits and gay mannerisms after a few months or so....and that includes going through the motion of swooning over a male that got their attention!

We even openly joked about it: the dance troupe is a gay-maker! They come in straight...they walk out gay.

I should add that during that time, it was "cool" to hang out with gays....and more "cool" to learn and use their lingo.

What was probably more the case was that they finally found an environment where they could let their own "inner divas" come out. *LOL I can assure you, no dance teacher can suddenly make otherwise straight-acting men into a bunch of nellies.

[Liam]

Several years ago, after a life time of battlling with his inner attraction to men, a doctor gave him a prescription that ended this attraction.

That's utter BS. No Rx can make someone chnage from gay to straight. Don't you think the Christian Coalition would have put this substance into our water like fluoride years ago????

[sharkman]

Several years ago, after a life time of battlling with his inner attraction to men, a doctor gave him a prescription that ended this attraction.

That's utter BS. No Rx can make someone chnage from gay to straight. Don't you think the Christian Coalition would have put this substance into our water like fluoride years ago????

No, it's not utter BS. Why, just because you don't like what happened? It may not jive with the doctrine the gay movement pushes, but people can change.

[betsy]

I do believe though that there are also those who are not really gays. It can be acquired through association...and for people who falls under this category, I assume that you can as easily drop it too.

The gays that you've encountered were most probably not really gays....

In that university I belonged to a dance troupe. Our choreographer/teacher was openly gay...and majority of the main male cast in this troupe were gays. New dancers regularly joined the troupe for it was a way of avoiding a not so popular project imposed by the government. We've noticed that men who joined and regularly hanged around with the choreographer and other gay dancers eventually ended up developing feminine traits and gay mannerisms after a few months or so....and that includes going through the motion of swooning over a male that got their attention!

We even openly joked about it: the dance troupe is a gay-maker! They come in straight...they walk out gay.

I should add that during that time, it was "cool" to hang out with gays....and more "cool" to learn and use their lingo.

What was probably more the case was that they finally found an environment where they could let their own "inner divas" come out. *LOL I can assure you, no dance teacher can suddenly make otherwise straight-acting men into a bunch of nellies.

Now don't laugh about this, okay?

I saw a segment of People's Court where-in the defendant was accused....and he admitted to pretending to be gay! The reason? Women feels more comfy around gays...so he can get close to them. The plaintiff (woman) was completely fooled by him.

It's also possible about what you said them finding an environment to have them inner nellies come marching out. But who knows....a lot of reasons can be cited. Those two confused fellas I mentioned also belonged to this troupe...where I've met them. The marriage and the switching back (and forth) happened after we've all graduated and moved on.

I do also believe that young boys/girls growing up can be exploited as to make them so confused of their sexualities....that they carry through to adulthood.

[betsy]

Can I be more clear than by saying that abosuletly NO ONE can change his or her orientation? So, yes, I say there is no such thing as ex-gay. Absolutely not at all. Anyone who claims to be ex-gay is lying to himself/herself.

But how do you know? You're making a very stiff definite claim where there's no room to consider other possibilities.

A claim such as that should be backed by endless decades of research studies! The kind of research that follows every person from childhood to adulthood...coming from all walks of life and various environment, ranging from all significant experiences and attachments, etc..., including extensively researched medical findings.

Only when every research is exhausted can one make a definite claim that NO ONE can change their orientation.

[BubberMiley]

Only when every research is exhausted can one make a definite claim that NO ONE can change their orientation.

Do you think, under the right circumstances, you could be "confused" into being gay? Personally, I can't imagine that and, because it seems so implausible to me, my only conclusion is that those who could be so "confused" probably weren't all that heterosexual to start with.

[NDP~]

I apologize for my choice of phrasing. I did not mean that the discussion is absurd. It is valid to discuss the origins of homosexuality as it is the origins of hetrosexuality. Also, I don't believe that a discussion of homosexuality implies that it is done on the basis to discrimminate. My reaction was based upon the multitude of use the "choice" vs nature as the baiss to somehow justify discrimmination. As that is not the nature of this thread, I aplogize for my jumping to conclusions.

NP.

Homosexuality exists amoung animals too - that is pretty convincing evidence that homsexuality does have a genetic component. (see link). However, I would not say genetics is the only factor.

Yes animals do practice this, but they also kill too. Does that make killing right? (just an example) I don't usually like to compare animals to humans since we as humans are considerably more advanced with social standings, language, intuition, etc.. But, that is for ANOTHER thread. Not this one. XD

Just an aside, but this statement is completely wrong. Gays are some of the most fervent supporters of the idea that gaydom is not a choice.

One guy I know used to be gay. His experience was that he was molested repeatedly by his foster mother and the experience caused him to experiment, and then become gay. Several years ago, after a life time of battlling with his inner attraction to men, a doctor gave him a prescription that ended this attraction. I found his story quite weird, but he is an upstanding person and has no doubt about how it all happened.

The idea that if you were able to 'kick' the habit you were not really gay makes too many assumptions to be taken seriously.

I'm not sure about the medication end of this (seems highly odd) but I do concur homosexuals seem to be most fervant in accepting the view that being homosexual is innate. And yes, someone becoming an ex-gay being accused of never truly being gay at all is really REALLY presumptious.

Can I be more clear than by saying that abosuletly NO ONE can change his or her orientation? So, yes, I say there is no such thing as ex-gay. Absolutely not at all. Anyone who claims to be ex-gay is lying to himself/herself.

Ask yourself this -- if heterosexuality was suddenly out of vogue, and bear with me here... even to the point where there were criminal sanctions imposed on those who tried to engage in sexual activities with members of the opposite sex... and lets further assume that you could suffer the situation and engage in physical relations with someone of the same gender, would that make you any less straight than you are now? Would you *truly* be able to turn off what you were in your earlier life to be what society expected of you? That's what these so-called "ex gays" are doing. They are compromising who thye are to live the life that society deems to be a "moral" amd "wholesome". But they are in denial.

ALL homosexuals are locked into their sexuality. As are ALL heterosexuals. All the prayer in the world has about as much as chance as turning a gay man straight as would turn a straight man gay. What I am saying is not at all based on what I feel, but on what I know from experience, both my own and that of my friends.

Personally, I find it insulting that you can even dare to speak on this issue at all. I was married. I have children. I tried to live the straight life. I have many friends who also tried to live a straight life. The people who claim to have left that "lifestyle" behind are full of sh*t. "Ex gays" are still the people they were born to be, only they have made a deal with the devil to put aside their true feelings and deny who they are all in a lame effort to gain social acceptance. Mark my words, they'll be "gay" again some day. I will wager any amount of money. Any day. Any time. Anywhere. You name the price, you name the conditions. I will bet you and I will win. Hands down. No question. No doubt.

They can no more become straight than a straight person can be become gay. A leopard cannot change its spots. It can pretend it's no longer a leopard but it cannot change what it truly is.

Liam, why are you so fervant in rejecting this possibility? Why are you assuming someone who becomes an ex-gay is lying to his or herself? Ex-gays are not people who are living a lie and conforming to a more "wholesome" or "moral" view of what society expects of them. They are people for one reason or another have made a conscious choice to no longer be a homosexual. You are not using reason here. You do not know the ex-gays I know. You assume they are in denial because the idea of people choosing to turn away from homosexuality seems to bother you. (no offence)

How is it not possible for a heterosexual to become a homosexual? That's absurd. For the case of let's just say (for an example) of a boy who was violated by his uncle and years down the road he realized he was gay? You think if he was not he would have been gay anyway? You don't know. I don't know. That's the thing. Events in life seem to often shape this so-called "sexual orientation".

You say that you are stating this on what you know from experience and what not from what you feel, but let's use another example here. A lot of young black people (sadly) that I have personally met are not the brightest lightbulb. They drop out and many are in gangs. As opposed to a lot of White people I know. Does this mean, from my experience, I should assume ALL young blacks are stupid and doomed to failure? No, because I know if they had grown up in the same environment as many of the White people I've known, they would have been equally as capable. I know not from experience, but from other external scientific facts that black people are equal in everyway. However, if I had judged them solely on my experience, my view would have been quite different.

Why is speaking of the issue insulting? People question Christianity. People question how the world works. Why can people not question the nature of homosexuality? Do I not have the right to question what many people have tried to impose on me? Your reply assumes being gay is without question genetic. It's funny since science has proven that some people are prone to being overweight. This has been unquestionably proven by science. Yet, is it ok for someone overweight to sit there and say well, "I cannot lose weight because I was born this way". No, it is not. People exercise. People with this type of body can control their weight. They were not born weighing 600 pounds. Until there is unquestionable, scientific proof, you were not born homosexual. (whether it is ok or not ok to be overweight or homosexual is not what I am saying, so do not interprete it that way)

Do you think, under the right circumstances, you could be "confused" into being gay? Personally, I can't imagine that and, because it seems so implausible to me, my only conclusion is that those who could be so "confused" probably weren't all that heterosexual to start with.

You'd be surprised how easily it is to brainwash people. If someone, for example, has low selfesteem (not saying it is your case, do not assume that) was violated when he/she was young, was treated poorly all his/her life, a person like that seems ripe for brainwashing into anything. (no, I'm not saying homosexuality specifically, but that brainwashing is quite prevelant in our society)

[Liam]

No, it's not utter BS. Why, just because you don't like what happened? It may not jive with the doctrine the gay movement pushes, but people can change.

If this really happened, tell me the name of the Rx he was put on. I'll call my ex, who is a doctor, and ask him what he thinks of the drug and to tell me about it. Just tell me the name of the drug.

[Liam]

Now don't laugh about this, okay?

I saw a segment of People's Court where-in the defendant was accused....and he admitted to pretending to be gay! The reason? Women feels more comfy around gays...so he can get close to them. The plaintiff (woman) was completely fooled by him.

It's also possible about what you said them finding an environment to have them inner nellies come marching out. But who knows....a lot of reasons can be cited. Those two confused fellas I mentioned also belonged to this troupe...where I've met them. The marriage and the switching back (and forth) happened after we've all graduated and moved on.

I do also believe that young boys/girls growing up can be exploited as to make them so confused of their sexualities....that they carry through to adulthood.

I'm not laughing. I mean, I am laughing b/c I do think it's funny that someone on "Peoples' Court" would pretend to be gay for some reason. (I *do* have a sense of humor about things, you know!)

I think some people can experiment with certain kinds of sex and decide it's not for them. Those are not the people I am labeling "gay". If I was so strict in my labeling, I couldn't rightly object if someone called me straight. After all, I was married to a woman for eight years. The people I am calling gay are men and women who are attracted to their own gender. I think bisexuality can exist and I think someone can go from being bi (experimenting with his or her own kind) and settling down with someone of the opposite gender and being happy. But those people are not "gay" and never were. "Gay" is someone who is primarily attracted to his or her own gender. It is as much a part of his being as a straight man's sole attraction to women. I remain unapologetic for my position that these people can change no more than a straight man can suddenly decide he is no longer attracted to Angelina Jolie and that Brad Pitt is his fantasy.

[Liam]

I'm not sure about the medication end of this (seems highly odd) but I do concur homosexuals seem to be most fervant in accepting the view that being homosexual is innate. And yes, someone becoming an ex-gay being accused of never truly being gay at all is really REALLY presumptious.

Do you uphold this same standard for people who were "straight" and who suddenly decide they'd rather be with men? You mean to say that you wouldn't suspect he was never truly straight to begin with?

[betsy]

Do you think, under the right circumstances, you could be "confused" into being gay? Personally, I can't imagine that and, because it seems so implausible to me, my only conclusion is that those who could be so "confused" probably weren't all that heterosexual to start with.

Well, you're entitled to your own opinion....but that still does not make it definite.

[Liam]

Liam, why are you so fervant in rejecting this possibility? Why are you assuming someone who becomes an ex-gay is lying to his or herself? Ex-gays are not people who are living a lie and conforming to a more "wholesome" or "moral" view of what society expects of them. They are people for one reason or another have made a conscious choice to no longer be a homosexual. You are not using reason here. You do not know the ex-gays I know. You assume they are in denial because the idea of people choosing to turn away from homosexuality seems to bother you. (no offence)

How is it not possible for a heterosexual to become a homosexual? That's absurd. For the case of let's just say (for an example) of a boy who was violated by his uncle and years down the road he realized he was gay? You think if he was not he would have been gay anyway? You don't know. I don't know. That's the thing. Events in life seem to often shape this so-called "sexual orientation".

You say that you are stating this on what you know from experience and what not from what you feel, but let's use another example here. A lot of young black people (sadly) that I have personally met are not the brightest lightbulb. They drop out and many are in gangs. As opposed to a lot of White people I know. Does this mean, from my experience, I should assume ALL young blacks are stupid and doomed to failure? No, because I know if they had grown up in the same environment as many of the White people I've known, they would have been equally as capable. I know not from experience, but from other external scientific facts that black people are equal in everyway. However, if I had judged them solely on my experience, my view would have been quite different.

Why is speaking of the issue insulting? People question Christianity. People question how the world works. Why can people not question the nature of homosexuality? Do I not have the right to question what many people have tried to impose on me? Your reply assumes being gay is without question genetic. It's funny since science has proven that some people are prone to being overweight. This has been unquestionably proven by science. Yet, is it ok for someone overweight to sit there and say well, "I cannot lose weight because I was born this way". No, it is not. People exercise. People with this type of body can control their weight. They were not born weighing 600 pounds. Until there is unquestionable, scientific proof, you were not born homosexual. (whether it is ok or not ok to be overweight or homosexual is not what I am saying, so do not interprete it that way)

Do you think, under the right circumstances, you could be "confused" into being gay? Personally, I can't imagine that and, because it seems so implausible to me, my only conclusion is that those who could be so "confused" probably weren't all that heterosexual to start with.

You'd be surprised how easily it is to brainwash people. If someone, for example, has low selfesteem (not saying it is your case, do not assume that) was violated when he/she was young, was treated poorly all his/her life, a person like that seems ripe for brainwashing into anything. (no, I'm not saying homosexuality specifically, but that brainwashing is quite prevelant in our society)

I will confess, it does bother me to think of people who are so self-loathing that they willingly submit to organizations that want to shame them, harrass them, and threaten them with eternal damnation unless they reject their very essence as God designed them to be. Yes, I fervently reject the notion of orientation reassignment and the entire "ex gay" movement. Why? Because I know people who went into this movement to satisfy deeply religious parents or who did this in an attempt to receive eternal salvation. All I can say is that prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are probably treated with more kindness than someone who goes through one of these ex-gay ministries.

Why do I say an "ex-gay" is lying to himself? I'll ask you this: (I am assuming you are straight) can you become gay? Seriously. Can you consciously decide that you will ever only look at men in a sexual way and love it? That you can never look at a woman in a sexual way again and be fine with that decision? That you will never walk past the issues of Penthouse or Playboy and be tempted to look at this month's centerfold? That you can flip a switch in your brain and convince yourself that you could never sleep with another woman ever again and actually be happy with the decision that you made? Anyone (well, most people) can assume certain sexual roles. We can perform certain acts and we can sometimes enjoy them or we can mostly suffer through them, but it does not undo our inner nature, our very being. Someone who is gay, truly gay, cannot become truly straight. Ever.

I am not even going to address your comments about someone's becoming gay because of a perverted uncle or your comments about certain black people. You're on your own there.

[NDP~]

I will confess, it does bother me to think of people who are so self-loathing that they willingly submit to organizations that want to shame them, harrass them, and threaten them with eternal damnation unless they reject their very essence as God designed them to be. Yes, I fervently reject the notion of orientation reassignment and the entire "ex gay" movement. Why? Because I know people who went into this movement to satisfy deeply religious parents or who did this in an attempt to receive eternal salvation. All I can say is that prisoners at Guantanamo Bay are probably treated with more kindness than someone who goes through one of these ex-gay ministries.

Why do I say an "ex-gay" is lying to himself? I'll ask you this: (I am assuming you are straight) can you become gay? Seriously. Can you consciously decide that you will ever only look at men in a sexual way and love it? That you can never look at a woman in a sexual way again and be fine with that decision? That you will never walk past the issues of Penthouse or Playboy and be tempted to look at this month's centerfold? That you can flip a switch in your brain and convince yourself that you could never sleep with another woman ever again and actually be happy with the decision that you made? Anyone (well, most people) can assume certain sexual roles. We can perform certain acts and we can sometimes enjoy them or we can mostly suffer through them, but it does not undo our inner nature, our very being. Someone who is gay, truly gay, cannot become truly straight. Ever.

I am not even going to address your comments about someone's becoming gay because of a perverted uncle or your comments about certain black people. You're on your own there.

lol Liam. Why are you bringing God into this? You think it is always Christians who do not agree with the homosexual philosophy? That's silly. You think the only "ex-gay" community is some Church group? You think people become an ex-gay because they're under pressure to do so? That's silly. You're making so many assumptions there.

Now, concerning me possibly becoming gay. Well, though I doubt it. I never say never. How do you know? How do I know? Do we know the future? No. It may very well be I'll be sucked into homosexuality. The point is that presently I have no interest in that sort of thing but maybe I'll be vacuumed in. And no, I've never been tempted by Playboy or Penthouse. I have more respect for women than that. So now we're going to differentiate between someone being truly "gay" and "sort-of gay". Who judges that? Who defines "truly gay", "sort of gay" and "never really was gay"? You? As you can see something like that is more of a social thing, not scientific nor genetic.

My EXAMPLE of black people was one of SOMEONE who is ignorant. I know many White people who think Black people are more or less gangsta' punks. I know black people are not. You really misunderstood my example. I was trying to point out how someone can reach conclusions through ignorance.

And my example of the boy being violated was to point out that events, no matter how horrible or insignificant, seem to the factor in defining sexual orientation and not genetics. For example, if you had been born 500 years ago and had only known of homosexuality as a concept, I really doubt you would have been homosexual.

I guess in the end, we can agree to disagree. You're mind is set in stone that there is NO way, NO possible speck of a chance that being homosexual is NOT genetic. I am open to this possibility if it is proven with unequivocal, unquestionable science. You are unwilling to listen because it seems if homosexuality is proven not to be genetic, it will shake the very foundations you stand on. Please do not be offended, that is not my intent. I am trying to open peoples eyes to the possibilities. To alternative explanations. Clearly, you do not want to hear that. You're eyes and ears are glued shut.

[Riverwind]

Homosexuality exists amoung animals too - that is pretty convincing evidence that homsexuality does have a genetic component. (see link). However, I would not say genetics is the only factor.

Yes animals do practice this, but they also kill too.

You made the assertion that there is no evidence of a genetic basis for homosexuality. I proved that you were wrong and you respond with a red herring. Human sexuality is a complex phenomena and is not a black and white issue: some gays are gay because God made them that way. Others are gay because of social influences.

[NDP~]

You made the assertion that there is no evidence of a genetic basis for homosexuality. I proved that you were wrong and you respond with a red herring. Human sexuality is a complex phenomena and is not a black and white issue: some gays are gay because God made them that way. Others are gay because of social influences.

Whoa! Well, I am uncertain what you mean that I responded with a "red herring". Simply pointing out that animals are sustable to homosexuality does not prove anything. Wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source.. Animals are not machines. They do have some level of awareness with sometimes complex social structures. In other words, just because animals do it does not mean they do it because it is genetic. Is everything they do genetic? No. Besides we're not exactly like other animals are we? Like I said before, animals kill. Does that make killing ok? All the link demonstrates is that there animals too practice all sorts of sexual behaviours based solely on scientific observation. It would be dangerous to conclude that it is genetic based only observation. Look at Dr. Mayou (or however his name is spelled). He's a "scientist" from Québec who said years of research have made him conclude that Blacks and Natives are inherently inferior to all other races! I was shocked when I heard that. But it goes to show that sometimes you cannot swallow everything you hear. (yes, I do believe he has some serious issues)

You say that human sexuality is complex, yet you point out in black and white terms that some homosexuals are like that because they were made that way by God and others are due to social influences. Well if we grab the Bible on this one (oh boy) there are numerous places (not just laviticus) where it unquestionably states that homosexuality is not ok with God. He says it is a sin. So, if homosexality is a sin, then why would God create homosexuals who have absolutely no way of being saved? That does not make sense. God says all who believe in him will find eternal life. That all can be fogiven from their sins. Yet, he excludes homosexuals because (according to you) he made them that way? No, I don't think so. That would be a mistake. And God, according to the Bible, does not make mistakes.

[Drea]

You say that human sexuality is complex, yet you point out in black and white terms that some homosexuals are like that because they were made that way by God and others are due to social influences. Well if we grab the Bible on this one (oh boy) there are numerous places (not just laviticus) where it unquestionably states that homosexuality is not ok with God. He says it is a sin. So, if homosexality is a sin, then why would God create homosexuals who have absolutely no way of being saved? That does not make sense. God says all who believe in him will find eternal life. That all can be fogiven from their sins. Yet, he excludes homosexuals because (according to you) he made them that way? No, I don't think so. That would be a mistake. And God, according to the Bible, does not make mistakes.

Only for "believers" tho.

For non-believers this is a non-issue. No one needs to be "saved" from anything. I agree with the poster who says you cannot go from being attracted to women then BAMB! all of a sudden you are sexually attracted to men.

As a heterosexual female, I cannot imagine myself having sex with a woman (icky! and unfullfilling IMO). The manliness of a man turns me on, the womanliness of a woman does not. This will never change with me, 10 years down the road and I will still want intimacy with a man.

Same for gays. The gay woman cannot imagine sex with a man (icky, in her opinion).

Why are people NOT okay with this? Why is it such a big deal to some people. Live and let live I say.

[Riverwind]

In other words, just because animals do it does not mean they do it because it is genetic.

The behavoir of animals is overwhelmingly driven by instinct which is genetic. The probability of a non-genetic explaination is very small.

there are numerous places (not just laviticus) where it unquestionably states that homosexuality is not ok with God.

Actually that is not what the Bible says. The Bible has a problem with sexual act of sodomy which is not the same as homosexuality. Various translations of the Bible try to twist the words one way or the other but the message is the same: gay people can be saved if they abstain from anal sex (something that is pretty easy for lesbians to do).

[Michael Hardner]

why are you so fervant in rejecting this possibility? Why are you assuming someone who becomes an ex-gay is lying to his or herself?

NDP - I understand Liam's fervour. The idea that people are trying to deny nature in order to further an agenda, to rationalize brainwashing, and eventually to form a basis for discrimination is abhorrent.

Everyone can have a strong opinion on this because they know themselves how they feel about their sexuality. I could never be attracted to men, and if somebody suggested that my attraction to women was a 'choice' then I would feel that it's untrue.

If people could be convinced that sexuality is a 'choice' then it's easier to form a basis for discrimination, legally.

[Leafless]

Michael Hardner

You wrote- " If people could be convinced that sexuality is a choice than it is easier to form a basis for discrimination, legally."

Sexuality is a choice.

Sexuality is something learned and taught mainly by society and your parents. Girls play with dolls and boys play with trucks.

Being raised in an effiminate manner from childhood would contribute greatly contribute to homosexuality or being left alone without guidence to detirmine your preference concerning your own personal sexuality

This is what separates us from animals is the ability to be raised and taught from childbirth.

That's why many dads raise their sons in what can be best described as macho to impress what the male role is in society.

[Michael Hardner]

Sexuality is a choice.

Sexuality is something learned and taught mainly by society and your parents. Girls play with dolls and boys play with trucks.

Being raised in an effiminate manner from childhood would contribute greatly contribute to homosexuality or being left alone without guidence to detirmine your preference concerning your own personal sexuality

This is what separates us from animals is the ability to be raised and taught from childbirth.

That's why many dads raise their sons in what can be best described as macho to impress what the male role is in society.

Leafless:

I'm convinced you have no idea at all what you're talking about. The gay men that I know were raised no differently from me.

There is a wealth of study on this in the academic world, but you have made your mind up all on your own it seems.

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Leafless,

Sexuality is a choice.

Sexuality is something learned and taught mainly by society and your parents. Girls play with dolls and boys play with trucks.

I beg to differ. Plenty of people have been raised 'in manly ways' on farms, etc but are gay. A sexual act involves choice, sexual preference is just that..a preference. It is whatever makes your dick hard. (in the case of men, and sometimes hermaphrodites, obviously)

[Leafless]

Michael hardner

You wrote- " There is a wealth of study on this in the academic world, but you have made up your mind all on your own it seems."

I'am not saying there is some sort of genetic imbalance that exist but in the majority of cases this could be overcome.

Are you saying there is not a similar inbalance that controls our thoughts, personal preferences even criminal actions that makes it easier for some people to steal, murder, rape etc. most people can realign these thoughts to reality and steer clear of abnormal tendencies albeit there is no real definiton of 'normal'.

But yet their is no official society for murders, rapists etc. No, of course not, these people are sent to prison to learn the proper way to sucumb to the rules of society as homosexuals were once to as perverts.

I know personally this lesbian women who became lesbian primarily because she could not achieve what her preferences were in her heterosexual marriage and as a result developed a hatred towards all men and turned to her own sex.

Are you telling me there are not NOT MANY reasons why a male could turn to another male for a multitude of reasons especially???

Nevertheless Michael I have not researched this topic exclusively to any great depth but have come to the conclusion most of the tendencies relating to homosexual behavior are a product of the mind and in many cases could be heterosexually adjusted just with the same enthuasim it takes to 'quit smoking'.