It’s Official: US Abandoning Ukraine | Scheerpost

[Scott75]

23 minutes ago, User said:

33 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

I've seen no one of any stature dispute the fact that Gorbachev was in fact assured that NATO wouldn't expand east of Germany.

Yes, you keep repeating yourself.

Any idea why?

23 minutes ago, User said:

Again, how was he "assured" of this?

You asked the same question back in post #279. I answered it in post #294. I don't think it makes any sense to repeat the same answer, so why don't you review post #294.

Edited February 12 by Scott75

[User]

19 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

Once again, if I had wanted to ignore what Gorbachev said, I certainly wouldn't have gone back to your post to quote him and respond to what he had to say.

And, again:

"No, you responded to what I said, sure, but the crux of your argument was to just ignore what Gorbchev said and dismiss it because you think he was old."

12 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

You asked the same question back in post #279. I answered it in post #294. I don't think it makes any sense to repeat the same answer, so why don't you review post #294.

So, why do you keep saying it to me again if you are going to keep ignoring me and playing these dumb games of refer back to other posts like this?

You have no argument. All you have is games. 

[WestCanMan]

7 hours ago, Scott75 said:

Ukraine's renewed assault on the Donbass Republics/Donbass region of Ukraine, on the other hand, happened -immediately- prior to Russia's war in Ukraine. I brought this up with DUI in my post #72, but he simply dismissed the evidence, much of which was coming from a former Swiss Intelligence Officer named Jacques Baud. Mr. Baud is a man with a career path that brought him directly into the conflict in Ukraine before Russia's military operation began. 

I think Former Swiss Intelligence Officer captured Putin's predicament quite well in the days leading up to his decision to start a military operation in Ukraine:

Was that war in Donbas not started by pro-Russian forces?

I can't find any sources that say that Ukraine was shelling civilians in February with a Google search. The annexation of Crimea is always listed as the first major event after Yanukovich was ousted. 

I don't consider Vox a news source, but this article is a quick, concise overview that's in lock-step with everything else that you'll find on Google searches: https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know

• This all began as an internal Ukrainian crisis in November 2013, when President Viktor Yanukovych rejected a deal for greater integration with the European Union (here's why this was such a big deal), sparking mass protests, which Yanukovych attempted to put down violently. Russia backed Yanukovych in the crisis, while the US and Europe supported the protesters.

  Since then, several big things have happened. In February, anti-government protests toppled the government and ran Yanukovych out of the country. Russia, trying to salvage its lost influence in Ukraine, invaded and annexed Crimea the next month. In April, pro-Russia separatist rebels began seizing territory in eastern Ukraine. The rebels shot down Malaysian Airlines flight 17 on July 17, killing 298 people, probably accidentally. Fighting between the rebels and the Ukrainian military intensified, the rebels started losing, and, in August, the Russian army overtly invaded eastern Ukraine to support the rebels. This has all brought the relationship between Russia and the West to its lowest point since the Cold War. Sanctions are pushing the Russian economy to the brink of recession, and more than 2,500 Ukrainians have been killed.

Quote

In fact, as early as February 16, Joe Biden knows that the Ukrainians began to shell the civilian populations of Donbass, putting Vladimir Putin in front of a difficult choice: to help Donbass militarily and create an international problem or to sit idle and watch Russian speakers from the Donbass being run over.

If he decides to intervene, Vladimir Putin can invoke the international obligation of “  Responsibility To Protect  ” (R2P). But he knows that whatever its nature or scale, the intervention will trigger a shower of sanctions. Therefore, whether its intervention is limited to the Donbass or whether it goes further to put pressure on the West for the status of Ukraine, the price to be paid will be the same. This is what he explains in his speech on February 21.

That day, he acceded to the request of the Duma and recognized the independence of the two Republics of Donbass and, in the process, he signed treaties of friendship and assistance with them.

The Ukrainian artillery bombardments on the populations of Donbass continued and, on February 23, the two Republics requested military aid from Russia. On the 24th, Vladimir Putin invokes Article 51 of the United Nations Charter which provides for mutual military assistance within the framework of a defensive alliance.

In order to make the Russian intervention totally illegal in the eyes of the public we deliberately obscure the fact that the war actually started on February 16th. The Ukrainian army was preparing to attack the Donbass as early as 2021, as certain Russian and European intelligence services were well aware… The lawyers will judge.

**

Full article:

https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/

Yeah, that's definitely obscured. I think the Russian word for Google is internyet.

[WestCanMan]

FWIW I have some friends who are Bulgarian and Polish, who still have friends and family there so they go back frequently, and for them it's just understood that the Donbas was being shelled before Russia got involved at all. 

Why was the shelling occurring? Were there already attacks occurring against the local gov'ts before that? 

[Nationalist]

Trump just posted on Truth Social...

Quote

"We discussed Ukraine, the Middle East, Energy, Artificial Intelligence, the power of the Dollar, and various other subjects," Trump said in a post on his Truth Social media outlet.

"We agreed to work together, very closely, including visiting each other’s Nations. We have also agreed to have our respective teams start negotiations immediately, and we will begin by calling President Zelenskyy, of Ukraine, to inform him of the conversation, something which I will be doing right now. "

And the end of the war in Ukraine finally moves forward.

This should o' been done by Brandon 2 friggin' years ago.

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, Scott75 said:

 

 

“It did not matter if we fired at a tree, barricade, or those who tossed a Molotov, what counted was making panics.”

 

I can recall a few events that happened in my lifetime where crowds got spooked, and people were trampled while they were fleeing.

[Nationalist]

6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

FWIW I have some friends who are Bulgarian and Polish, who still have friends and family there so they go back frequently, and for them it's just understood that the Donbas was being shelled before Russia got involved at all. 

Why was the shelling occurring? Were there already attacks occurring against the local gov'ts before that? 

Actually, we have a tenant in our Czech home who is Ukrainian from a western farm town. She goes back to see the family regularly too. Her brother left and she's helped him settle in the city. Din't wanna die I guess.

She tells us this,

a. They hardly notice this war, where her family lives.

b. They don't really care what happens to the Donbas region. Just end this war and let the young men return.

Edited February 12 by Nationalist

[impartialobserver]

while not directly related, I have read numerous times that Russia has been losing population. Very low birth rates and now the Ukraine conflict have started to deplete them. Will be interesting to see what they do when the Eastern half of the nation is empty. 

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, impartialobserver said:

while not directly related, I have read numerous times that Russia has been losing population. Very low birth rates and now the Ukraine conflict have started to deplete them. Will be interesting to see what they do when the Eastern half of the nation is empty. 

They'll fck...like vodka drunken rabbits. So will the Ukrainians I bet...once they let the young men who ran away, come back. Most will never return once gone.

Central Euros don't have the same sexual stigma we North Americans do...I have found...

[User]

11 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

FWIW I have some friends who are Bulgarian and Polish, who still have friends and family there so they go back frequently, and for them it's just understood that the Donbas was being shelled before Russia got involved at all. 

Why was the shelling occurring? Were there already attacks occurring against the local gov'ts before that? 

What was the date and time of this shelling occurring they are claiming was happening before Russia got involved? What do you claim is the date and time Russia got involved?

What is the shelling that occurred you are talking about?

What are the attacks against the local government you are referring to that happened before Russia got involved?

 

[impartialobserver]

Just now, Nationalist said:

They'll fck...like vodka drunken rabbits. So will the Ukrainians I bet...once they let the young men who ran away, come back. Most will never return once gone.

Central Euros don't have the same sexual stigma we North Americans do...I have found...

Well apparently this is not true. Even before the Ukraine war.. they were reproducing at a rate lower than replacement. The eastern half has been depopulating for 40 years. 

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, impartialobserver said:

Well apparently this is not true. Even before the Ukraine war.. they were reproducing at a rate lower than replacement. The eastern half has been depopulating for 40 years. 

Yup...I know. Seems to be a theme of late. Especially with Caucasians. We gotta get over this idea that having a family is not a "good" thing. Remove some of the social barriers we've put up like...hot and cold running abortions...for instance.

In order to do that though, we have to make the cost of living much less a war for the young. We need to ultra-stimulate the economy, put everyone to work, watch wages rise...yes as well as prices somewhat, but the costs should be tempered by the reduced cost of fuel. But most importantly, we need to take care of ourselves...like the other denominations do.

One would have expected that simple rule and instinct need not be explained to folks but...seems the hole we've dug is pretty bloody deep now.

Stupid us...

[Scott75]

22 hours ago, User said:

23 hours ago, Scott75 said:

23 hours ago, User said:

23 hours ago, Scott75 said:

However, the evidence that Gorbachev was mistaken and James Baker promised him that NATO wouldn't expand past Germany is on the record.

So, like I said:

"No, you responded to what I said, sure, but the crux of your argument was to just ignore what Gorbchev said and dismiss it because you think he was old."

Once again, I find your quote snipping to be quite interesting. For the audience, I didn't start my response to User with the quote he made above. It was actually part of a larger paragraph. Here is the part he snipped out:

**

Once again, if I had wanted to ignore what Gorbachev said, I certainly wouldn't have gone back to your post to quote him and respond to what he had to say.

**

It serves as a good introductory response to what he's saying now. Did he read the first part, snip it out of my quote and then forget I ever said it? Who knows, but I for one am impressed at how he can apparently forget things I said only moments before his response.

Anyway, aside from this falsehood that I ignored what Gorbachev said, he focuses on the fact that I mentioned Gorbachev was old. Yes, I said that, but the more important point is that there are archived records making it abundantly clear that Gorbachev was in fact promised that NATO wouldn't expand east of Germany. I quoted said archives and it's these quotes that User keeps on snipping out.

And, again:

"No, you responded to what I said, sure, but the crux of your argument was to just ignore what Gorbchev said and dismiss it because you think he was old."

That's the third time you've said that line. The first time was in post #297, the second time was in post #323 and now this third time in post #327. Meanwhile, I already responded to that line back in post #322 and reiterated the same response to the exact same line in post #325, which is the post you just responded to. Go read those posts once more if you'd like to refresh your memory as to what I said and see if you can come up with a different response this time around.

Edited February 13 by Scott75

[Scott75]

22 hours ago, User said:

  

23 hours ago, Scott75 said:

23 hours ago, User said:

Again, how was he "assured" of this?

You asked the same question back in post #279. I answered it in post #294. I don't think it makes any sense to repeat the same answer, so why don't you review post #294.

So, why do you keep saying it to me

You first asked your 'how was he assured' question in post #279, so I gave you my answer in post #294. Apparently, you forgot my answer, or perhaps never even read it, so you asked the question yet again in post #323. I didn't see the point in repeating my answer yet again, so I just redirected you back to where I'd already answered your question- that is, in post #294. I suspect you never clicked on the link. As I suspect I've told you before, there's a good saying that really applies here: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Let me know if you ever get back to post #294 to see the answer to your question. 

Edited February 13 by Scott75

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

You first asked your 'how was he assured' question in post #279, so I gave you my answer in post #294. Apparently, you forgot my answer, or perhaps never even read it, so you asked the question yet again in post #323. I didn't see the point in repeating my answer yet again, so I just redirected you back to where I'd already answered your question- that is, in post #294. I suspect you never clicked on the link. As I've told you before, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Let me know if you ever get back to post #294 to see the answer to your question. 

Well it's all academic now. Looks like Donny-Boy has an agreement with Vlad and now they're gonna impose it on Comic-Boy.

If I were him...I'd be packing and getting ready to leave.

[Scott75]

21 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

On 2/12/2025 at 3:37 AM, Scott75 said:

Ukraine's renewed assault on the Donbass Republics/Donbass region of Ukraine, on the other hand, happened -immediately- prior to Russia's war in Ukraine. I brought this up with DUI in my post #72, but he simply dismissed the evidence, much of which was coming from a former Swiss Intelligence Officer named Jacques Baud. Mr. Baud is a man with a career path that brought him directly into the conflict in Ukraine before Russia's military operation began.

[snip]

I think Former Swiss Intelligence Officer captured Putin's predicament quite well in the days leading up to his decision to start a military operation in Ukraine:

Was that war in Donbas not started by pro-Russian forces?

I'd say that it all started with the Euromaidan coup. While Jacques Baud doesn't really get into the Euromaidan coup itself, he -does- get into its aftermath. Quoting from his article that I've quoted from previously:

**

Let’s try to examine the roots of the conflict. It starts with those who for the past eight years have been talking to us about “separatists” or “independence” from the Donbass. It’s wrong. The referendums conducted by the two self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Luhansk in May 2014 were not ”  independence ” (независимость) referendums , as some unscrupulous journalists  claimed , but ”  self-determination  ” or ”  autonomy (самостоятельность). The term “pro-Russian” suggests that Russia was a party to the conflict, which was not the case, and the term “Russian speakers” would have been more honest. Moreover, these referendums were conducted against the advice of Vladimir Putin.

In fact, these republics did not seek to separate from Ukraine, but to have a statute of autonomy guaranteeing them the use of the Russian language as an official language. Because the first legislative act of the new government resulting from the overthrow of President Yanukovych, was the abolition, on February 23, 2014, of the Kivalov-Kolesnichenko law of 2012 which made Russian an official language. A bit as if putschists decided that French and Italian would no longer be official languages in Switzerland.

This decision causes a storm in the Russian-speaking population. This resulted in fierce repression against the Russian-speaking regions (Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov, Lugansk and Donetsk) which began in February 2014 and led to a militarization of the situation and a few massacres (in Odessa and Mariupol, for the most important). At the end of summer 2014, only the self-proclaimed republics of Donetsk and Lugansk remained.

**

Full article:

https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/

Now, I should say one thing, Jacques Baud is mistaken that the initiative by the new government was initially successful. It was actually vetoed by one of the last remaining holdouts from Yanukovych's government, whose name currently escapes me. They did eventually get the job done though, and I suspect those in Odessa and elsewhere saw the writing on the wall and thus their protests at the new government's direction, which, as Mr. Baud mentioned, resulted in fierce oppression. Perhaps the most tragic of these was the massacre at Odessa. Russian historian Evgeny Norin wrote an article on the event that I found very moving, but I know that some people refuse to read anything that's published in a Russian news outlet that's not been banned in Russia, so I'll just quote 2 paragraphs of his article, ending in a punchline:

**

Ukrainian society reacted to the events in Odessa in a very peculiar way. Naturally, the majority of the population sympathized with the victims. Flowers would be brought to the Trade Unions building every year on May 2. The public realm and the media, however, were dominated by nationalists. For a few months after the events, social media platforms were overflowing with ‘jokes’ about the ‘Odessa barbecue’, the ‘burning of vatniks’ (a typical Soviet-era wool-padded jacket that became used to refer to Ukrainians espousing pro-Russian views and to Russians themselves), as well as slogans eerily reminiscent of those employed by Nazis about the Jews that they murdered in World War Two. The Ukrainian internet was flooded with pictures of burnt corpses accompanied by derisive comments. Many of the people who took part in the Odessa event soon thereafter ended up in the Donbass, fighting in the volunteer battalions of the Ukrainian army. “All it takes is to kill fifty ‘vatniks’ in every city, and then we shall have peace, then the war will end,” remarked Maksim Mazur, a member of the Aidar Battalion – a statement that was eagerly endorsed by many of those who had attacked people in Odessa.

In fact, Ukrainian social media did exactly what is commonly attributed to Russian propaganda. The piles of burnt corpses evoked feelings of horror, but also of rage. May 2014 was a breaking point: volunteers from Russia started to arrive in the breakaway republics en masse and even some men from Western Europe came to fight on their side. Slogans about autonomous status and the need to engage in talks with Kiev gave way to an unwavering resolve and determination to stand and fight to the bitter end. Just a few days after May 2, a Donbass rebel wrote on a destroyed and burned-out Ukrainian infantry fighting vehicle: “This is for Odessa, you bastards.”

**

Full article:

https://www.rt.com/russia/554860-burned-alive-2014-odessa/

Edited February 13 by Scott75
Added information

[Scott75]

21 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

On 2/12/2025 at 3:37 AM, Scott75 said:

Ukraine's renewed assault on the Donbass Republics/Donbass region of Ukraine, on the other hand, happened -immediately- prior to Russia's war in Ukraine. I brought this up with DUI in my post #72, but he simply dismissed the evidence, much of which was coming from a former Swiss Intelligence Officer named Jacques Baud. Mr. Baud is a man with a career path that brought him directly into the conflict in Ukraine before Russia's military operation began.

[snip]

I think Former Swiss Intelligence Officer captured Putin's predicament quite well in the days leading up to his decision to start a military operation in Ukraine:

I can't find any sources that say that Ukraine was shelling civilians in February with a Google search.

Amazing what the mass media hides, isn't it? I think Mr. Jacques Baud provides all the evidence that this in fact occurred, but so few people have seen his article. I'll quote more of the relevant passages, excluding the ones you've already seen, complete with links to his sources:

**

In violation of the Minsk Accords, Ukraine is conducting aerial operations in Donbass using drones, including at least one strike against a fuel depot in Donetsk in October 2021 . The American press points this out, but not the Europeans and no one condemns these violations.

In February 2022, events rush. On February 7, during his visit to Moscow, Emmanuel Macron reaffirms to Vladimir Putin his attachment to the Minsk Accords , a commitment he will repeat after his interview with Volodymyr Zelensky the next day. But on February 11, in Berlin, after 9 hours of work, the meeting of the political advisers of the leaders of the ”  Normandy format  “ ends, without concrete result: the Ukrainians still and always refuse to apply the Accordsof Minsk, apparently under pressure from the United States. Vladimir Putin then notes that Macron has made empty promises to him and that the West is not ready to enforce the Accords, as they have been doing for eight years.

Ukrainian preparations in the contact zone continue. The Russian Parliament is alarmed and on February 15 asks Vladimir Putin to recognize the independence of the Republics, which he refuses.

On February 17, President Joe Biden announces that Russia will attack Ukraine in the coming days. How does he know? Mystery… But since the 16th, the artillery shelling of the populations of Donbass has increased dramatically, as shown by the daily reports of OSCE observers. Naturally, neither the media, nor the European Union, nor NATO, nor any Western government reacts and intervenes. We will say later that this is Russian disinformation. In fact, it seems that the European Union and some countries purposely glossed over the massacre of the people of Donbass, knowing that it would provoke Russian intervention.

**

Mr. Baud then points out something that happened in January 2022- I think he should have mentioned it earlier in the article, but still a relevant point:

**

...there are reports of acts of sabotage in the Donbass. On January 18, Donbass fighters intercept saboteurs equipped with Western equipment and speaking Polish seeking to create chemical incidents in Gorlivka . They could be CIA mercenaries , led or “advised” by Americans and made up of Ukrainian or European fighters, to carry out sabotage actions in the Donbass Republics.

**

 

Mr. Baud then includes some graphs taken from OSCE data:

**

**

Full article:

https://scheerpost.com/2022/04/09/former-nato-military-analyst-blows-the-whistle-on-wests-ukraine-invasion-narrative/

Edited February 13 by Scott75

[User]

1 hour ago, Scott75 said:

That's the third time you've said that line. The first time was in post #297, the second time was in post #323 and now this third time in post #327. Meanwhile, I already responded to that line back in post #322 and reiterated the same response to the exact same line in post #325, which is the post you just responded to. Go read those posts once more if you'd like to refresh your memory as to what I said and see if you can come up with a different response this time around.

Nope, if you have something to say, say it. Not playing your dumb games where you endlessly link back to the past where you were still not addressing my arguments. 

 

53 minutes ago, Scott75 said:

You first asked your 'how was he assured' question in post #279, so I gave you my answer in post #294. Apparently, you forgot my answer, or perhaps never even read it, so you asked the question yet again in post #323. I didn't see the point in repeating my answer yet again, so I just redirected you back to where I'd already answered your question- that is, in post #294. I suspect you never clicked on the link. As I suspect I've told you before, there's a good saying that really applies here: you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Let me know if you ever get back to post #294 to see the answer to your question. 

Nope, if you have something to say, say it. Not playing your dumb games where you endlessly link back to the past where you were still not addressing my arguments. 

[Black Dog]

Three Sheets Pete had to walk back his statements about Ukraine less than a day after he made them

Hegseth reins in demands on Ukraine amid allies’ outcries

To be fair it's possible he has no recollection of saying the U.S. would not accept NATO membership for Ukraine or anything else.

[User]

1 hour ago, Black Dog said:

To be fair it's possible he has no recollection of saying the U.S. would not accept NATO membership for Ukraine or anything else.

To be fair, you are too stupid to read any of this or to have listened to what he said. 

 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Utterly disgusting. Trump is destroying the global order his country strove so hard to create in the 20th Century. 

[User]

4 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Utterly disgusting. Trump is destroying the global order his country strove so hard to create in the 20th Century. 

How? Be specific. 

What country are you from and why are they not doing more to help Ukraine?

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, User said:

How? Be specific. 

How? By usurping Ukraines right to negotiate let alone participate in its own peace treaty.

I thought your country's abandonment of the Marsh Arabs in Iraq to Saddam Hussein was an act of real treachery but your country's surrender of Ukraine to Putin is an act of evil. 

An act of geopolitical vandalism brought to us by the Ugliest Beacon for Freedom and Liberty in the world.

Quote

What country are you from and why are they not doing more to help Ukraine?

I'm from Earth and the only way to help Ukraine is to bring America back to its senses.

[User]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

How? By usurping Ukraines right to negotiate let alone participate in its own peace treaty.

I thought your country's abandonment of the Marsh Arabs in Iraq to Saddam Hussein was an act of real treachery but your country's surrender of Ukraine to Putin is an act of evil. 

An act of geopolitical vandalism brought to us by the Ugliest Beacon for Freedom and Liberty in the world.

None of this is happening. Ukraine can do as they please. 

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

I'm from Earth and the only way to help Ukraine is to bring America back to its senses.

Back to our senses to do what?

[Black Dog]

 

Quote

 

Vice President JD Vance warned on Thursday that the United States could hit Russia with economic and military “tools of leverage” if Russian leader Vladimir Putin doesn’t negotiate a peace deal with Ukraine in good faith.

Speaking to the Wall Street Journal on Thursday, Vance said the option of sending US troops to Ukraine was “on the table,” as well as economic punishment if a peace deal doesn’t guarantee Kyiv’s long-term independence.

“There are economic tools of leverage, there are of course military tools of leverage,” Vance told the newspaper.

His comments strike a different tone from other recent statements from the White House – including from US President Donald Trump who suggested this week that Ukraine “may be Russian someday,” shortly before announcing that peace negotiations would begin immediately after holding a phone call with Putin.

Vance’s statement also contrasts with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who has said the US would no longer prioritize European and Ukrainian security. This week, he told NATO allies that European and non-European troops – but not Americans – would have to police any agreement between Ukraine and Russia.

 

link

I'm sure to the cultists this is all part of some master plan to keep everyone else off balance, but to the rest of the world this looks like an administration that doesn't know what it's doing.