Insanity is what it looks. Reality is real. Truth matters

[myata]

1 hour ago, Venandi said:

the effect that stratospheric levels of absurdity have had and the effect (causal or not) those machinations will have on future voting trends.

We need to distinguish between different issues. Culture wars, cancel culture, extreme promotions of diversity infringing on the space of general public even as we discussed even recently are the product of certain vocal groups in the society. One cannot prevent that, anymore that groups of uneducated populace embracing MAGA sermons. Was it an official policy of all progressively oriented part of the society? Clearly not. Were they adopted as official policies. No. So it's wrong to position that as a failure of all and anything progressive. This is the difference. Yes a more broad and objective discussion of these issues should have happened and was happening in some venues.

But what we see now is very obviously, an authoritarian cult-like mindset where dissent isn't even allowed. Over a thousand of violent offenders released in a clear insult to the rule of law: what could be the point of it, if the offenders then released brazenly? Not a single high-level Republican condemned it publicly to my knowledge. The madman openly threatens long-standing allies even with military assault. Zero reaction. This is both despicable, disgusting in fact, and all the difference one can take in. Obviously. No way of arguing with the reality.

And by way this how a society folds down to fascism. This is exactly how it happened the last time. There's nothing else needed for it to advance, they will fold to every lie and each overstep explaining and powdering it, in a complete and disgraceful violation of all principles and duties. Disgusting, slimy bunch and mind you it was a free, voluntary choice: no one even made them do it.

Edited January 25 by myata

[Legato]

28 minutes ago, myata said:

I not only did think that but said so on many more than a single occasion. I do not consider myself an expert in the U.S. politics; much looked broken in it for a long time, such as the free season for big dough. But yes, staying with sanity always helps regardless of the stripe and ideology.

Still it doesn't explain, nor condone/justify embracing plain and obvious insanity.

I would base my opinion on facts rather than hearsay and a bucket of anecdotes some unverified. How real was the risk of being prosecuted for failing to embrace the diversity? I'm not convinced it was widespread maybe because I never watched Fox, youtube and such. Some of those problems were certainly real and it's our responsibility as sane and responsible citizens to see and call out every such incident, no exceptions.

And one more time, "stratospheric" in propaganda pumped by big dough with most obvious fiscal interests does not yet amount, automatically and by default to the reality. Where overreach happened, factually it had to have been checked, questioned and if necessary stopped by the citizens. Inclusion, diversity, affirmative action programs should have been broadly discussed in the society - that indeed may have dampened if not prevented the knew-jerk reaction. These are very real shortcomings down to outright failures. Still they don't justify giving in to the clear insanity.

Orange man may be a bombastic loudmouth, but after 4 years of blue white washing the orange hoses are cleaning the blue stain away.

Ignorance of the blue stain will not be seen as an excuse to vilify orange when blue is the obvious villain.

[myata]

Republicans are now in a shameful position. It's not far at all from here to that of complete and final degradation of any remaining integrity. There will be nothing left to look at, just disgusting moral goo and slime. Just like the last time. All the examples and knowledge are before our eyes. No ignorance and no innocence, here.

Edited January 25 by myata

[Venandi]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Nobody thinks that the term ' you people ' is a pejorative. You could use it to talk about Canadians, CBC executives, anyone. The point was that it was widely inferred that he was talking about new Canadians. 

 

Well, that's because he was.... 

Logically, "you people" is assumed to apply to an identifiable group and it's usually accompanied with a critical (often condescending) tone, which is exactly how you intended your own iteration of it to be received IMO.

[Venandi]

1 hour ago, myata said:

But what we see now is very obviously, an authoritarian cult-like mindset where dissent isn't even allowed.

As you typed that you surely must have seen the irony in it... no?

It's exactly what your political rivals right here have been saying for the last 4 years (longer in Canada). I get that you get that... I just think it's been far more damaging than you think and people are ready to put up with things they might not otherwise have condoned in order to crush it. Some here (actually most I'd say) are enjoying your discomfort and would label it just desserts... they want this to smart a bit and they're happy to spray the wound with alcohol "for your own good."

It's become a big seesaw IMO and it's now your turn to await your turn again... that's how many will see it. IMO, the polarization that created this mindset was politically expedient at the time, but highly divisive. It's not going away anytime soon.

  OOOps ... no time to unpack the rest, have to run

 

Edited January 25 by Venandi

[Michael Hardner]

41 minutes ago, Venandi said:

Well, that's because he was.... 

Logically, "you people" is assumed to apply to an identifiable group and it's usually accompanied with a critical (often condescending) tone, which is exactly how you intended your own iteration of it to be received IMO.

When did I use it?

[myata]

1 hour ago, Venandi said:

It's exactly what your political rivals right here have been saying for the last 4 years (longer in Canada). I get that you get that... I just think it's been far more damaging than you think and people are ready to put up with things they might not otherwise have condoned in order to crush it. Some here (actually most I'd say) are enjoying your discomfort and would label it just desserts... they want this to smart a bit and they're happy to spray the wound with alcohol "for your own good."

You don't know who my rivals are and clearly weren't paying any attention. Repeating same stuck track won't get you much attention, from me at least. Point closed.

"Enjoying discomfort", at the cost of doing away with the democracy and rule of law? The word is "stupidity". No one to flaunt it to, no one to impress or will be. Just dumb and stupid, for all it's worth. And sure will come back with a good, hefty price tag. Be happy this one time to squeeze back to normality somehow, but not guaranteed and not by far.

Edited January 25 by myata

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Venandi said:

Logically, "you people" is assumed to apply to an identifiable group and it's usually accompanied with a critical (often condescending) tone, which is exactly how you intended your own iteration of it to be received IMO.

How do you expect the term lefty should be received when you people use it as such an obvious expression of disgust? If we were a race there'd be only one way to interpret it.

As for your fave grievances...

1. COVID authoritarianism

2. MSM/Deepstate conspiracies (unholy alliance between government, security services (including intelligence), and media.)

3. Moral panic over sexuality and race (DEI)

You seriously think it's possible for you people to frame these grievances in a rational and thoughtful way so reasonable people can discuss them with kindness, compassion and tolerance?

Good luck with that.

[Venandi]

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

You seriously think it's possible for you people to frame these grievances in a rational and thoughtful way so reasonable people can discuss them with kindness, compassion and tolerance?

Your question runs east and west (left and right if you will) on rails of steel.

It was the reason I was probing the parameters a bit, after doing that I now believe you're right. The answer is no and it reverberates in both directions. The polarization seems to be entrenched and those afflicted revel in it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 26 by Venandi

[myata]

10 hours ago, Venandi said:

The polarization seems to be entrenched and those afflicted revel in it.

There are different constituent parts of that polarization and they need to be talked about openly and clearly. Yes there was an overreach in drive by certain groups calling themselves progressive to impose their views and ideologies on the rest of the society. A part of well-meaning public was pulled along and another part just complied. These issues were raised and they were discussed by the sane, objective observers. There was a pushback, including in the legal system where it retained impartiality. There's no denying it. And it's not all there's to it.

The second part is a mud-stirring, nihilistic and populist drive to deny everything, every foundation of democracy including the obligation to be honest, the rule of law, responsibility for actions and results. The underlying motive is very clear for the centuries this method exist: to install control over the society via confusion, fear and division. There's nothing innocent about these actions, it's a deliberate assault, conspiracy to subvert democracy. And yes, recently a faction of large capital seems to have decided that it doesn't need to pay even lip service to democracy and can simply throw a lot of dough to control the mind of the pueblo directly through lies and propaganda.

Thinking and responsible democratic society cannot ignore these threats. There needs to be regulation to bring back responsibility for the veracity of the content. Simply, one cannot feed lies to other people, where they haven't explicitly agreed to it, without any responsibility. And we need to see and call any such attempt for what it is: a reach for power, eventually if not checked, authoritarian and dictatorial. These aren't just innocent "freedom of speech" games history shows it very clearly.

[A Freeman]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

How do you expect the term lefty should be received when you people use it as such an obvious expression of disgust? If we were a race there'd be only one way to interpret it.

As for your fave grievances...

1. COVID authoritarianism

2. MSM/Deepstate conspiracies (unholy alliance between government, security services (including intelligence), and media.)

3. Moral panic over sexuality and race (DEI)

You seriously think it's possible for you people to frame these grievances in a rational and thoughtful way so reasonable people can discuss them with kindness, compassion and tolerance?

Good luck with that.

Greetings and good wishes to everyone here.

 

Haven't the three issues listed above not already been rationally and thoughtfully identified countless times before?

 

While this may seem controversial (even though it isn't), our Creator has expressly prohibited the use of pharmaceutical poisons/witchcraft/witches' brew, warned us for thousands of years about the corrupt, tyrannical nature of all leaders of worldly governments and religions (church and state), along with making it crystal clear that there are two genders, and two genders only (male and female), and that going against nature should not be tolerated.

 

These Commandments and warnings were provided for our own individual and collective benefit, to protect us from evil and to set and keep us free. Free from oppression, free from injustice and free from perversion. The results of our refusal to acknowledge these simple and irrefutable facts is what has placed us in the position we find ourselves in today, where radical, demoralizing policies have become the "new norm" and where there are so many made-up rules no one could read them in ten lifetimes much less one. As Tacitus said: "the more corrupt the state the more numerous the laws."

 

Does anyone honestly believe that our current systems of government are not corrupt to their core given the millions of rules that exist at every level of government?

[Nationalist]

20 hours ago, eyeball said:

How do you expect the term lefty should be received when you people use it as such an obvious expression of disgust? If we were a race there'd be only one way to interpret it.

As for your fave grievances...

1. COVID authoritarianism

2. MSM/Deepstate conspiracies (unholy alliance between government, security services (including intelligence), and media.)

3. Moral panic over sexuality and race (DEI)

You seriously think it's possible for you people to frame these grievances in a rational and thoughtful way so reasonable people can discuss them with kindness, compassion and tolerance?

Good luck with that.

Ya well...Donald J Trump is now the POTUS. So...luck is now on our side.

Have a nice Sunday. 

Edited January 26 by Nationalist

[myata]

Objectively and factually, these actions cannot be qualified by anything less serious than a deliberate assault on democracy. What political system, one of the main constitutional functions and obligations of which was to prevent exactly this kind of threats decided to play along like nothing much is happening is simply mindboggling. Only another proof that without constant and diligent attention by the society, reasonable and responsible citizens any political system would fold onto itself and abandon its duties and obligations to the society.

[Nationalist]

Just now, myata said:

Objectively and factually, these actions cannot be qualified by anything less serious than a deliberate assault on democracy. What political system, one of the main constitutional functions and obligations of which was to prevent exactly this kind of threats decided to play along like nothing much is happening is simply mindboggling. Only another proof that without constant and diligent attention by the society, reasonable and responsible citizens any political system would fold onto itself and abandon its duties and obligations to the society.

You LOST. Deal with it in as much of a manly way you can muster.

[Venandi]

On 1/25/2025 at 11:39 AM, Venandi said:

It's exactly what your political rivals right here have been saying for the last 4 years (longer in Canada). I get that you get that... I just think it's been far more damaging than you think and people are ready to put up with things they might not otherwise have condoned in order to crush it. Some here (actually most I'd say) are enjoying your discomfort and would label it just desserts...

 

23 hours ago, myata said:

You don't know who my rivals are and clearly weren't paying any attention. Repeating same stuck track won't get you much attention, from me at least. Point closed.

 

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Ya well...Donald J Trump is now the POTUS. So...luck is now on our side.

Have a nice Sunday. 

 

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

You LOST. Deal with it in as much of a manly way you can muster.

LOL... point closed indeed. I'll leave you to it. Here's a final thought on the next four years:

12 hours ago, Venandi said:

The polarization seems to be entrenched and those afflicted revel in it.

Edited January 26 by Venandi

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, Venandi said:

 

 

 

LOL... point closed indeed. I'll leave you to it.

Meh...I apologize if I stomped on your "debate" but, the sh1t I read from so many Libbies is seriously venomous. Ugly. Sick.

How DARE society recognize masochistic leadership.

Anyway...sorry...

[Venandi]

37 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Meh...I apologize if I stomped on your "debate" but, the sh1t I read from so many Libbies is seriously venomous. Ugly. Sick.

It's fine... actually you illustrated the point I was trying to make with myata about the bumpy road ahead for progressives. They did this to themselves IMO and the polarization they created is likely to eat their lunch.

I agree with your characterization and think walking back the previous arrogance and venom is going to be a tough sell for them... it will take  time (lots of it maybe) for any pivot toward moderation to be accepted as sincere.

I just strung together a few quotes because he said I wasn't paying attention, your content and timing was perfect and my discussion with him is concluded.

Cheers 

Edited January 26 by Venandi

[eyeball]

13 hours ago, Venandi said:

The polarization seems to be entrenched and those afflicted revel in it.

Triumph usually wears off pretty fast in politics. Trump might get half a term under his belt before this starts up in reaction to the lack of progress and tangible benefits his supporters expect.

I'm betting the galvanizing event that triggers the impatience and violence will follow a standoff between ICE and local officials in a sanctuary city/state. 
 

 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You LOST. Deal with it in as much of a manly way you can muster.

Lol...just wait until the triumph wears off and the long slow grind reasserts itself.

Then what will you do?

[myata]

1 hour ago, Venandi said:

LOL... point closed indeed. I'll leave you to it. Here's a final thought on the next four years:

It's closed because there can be no intelligent discussion with a recording: it doesn't change regardless of any input from the reality, no matter what is fed into it it produces the same tone. That theoretically eliminates any logical point of trying to talk to it. Proven, mathematically: no difference.

Your unproven assumption that ideological overreach of the left was the only or the main cause of the antidemocratic and anti-rule-of-law, all factual, backlash were countered with provable arguments. The assault on the rule of law, the democracy and the factual reality itself is real and possibly, unprecedented in history. Still you're replaying the same polarization tune to boring end. So, concluded indeed.

Only to add that there are users here who having exhibited this pattern of behavior repeatedly or always I just don't bother to notice. What would be the point of attempting a dialogue with a tree or a wall? None: a perfect zero, logically.

[Michael Hardner]

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Lol...just wait until the triumph wears off and the long slow grind reasserts itself.

And what about those of us who have never felt triumph?

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

And what about those of us who have never felt triumph?

There's vindication.

[User]

On 1/25/2025 at 7:25 AM, Michael Hardner said:

I don't like arguing that the culture war was anything other than a political football. 

It seems like some are conceding that it's a thing of the past, a battle won.

Okay. Well then let's move on.... Are those billionaires going to help us now? 

How can we actually measure that things are getting better? Inflation rates? How about the GINI index?

 

Nope, the battle has not been won. We are currently winning at the moment though and will at a minimum have great wins for the next 4 years, likely even 8 more. Congress needs to solidify more of this in legislation. States and local governments are doing that now as well. Except for the more left wing ones, they are going the opposite direction. 

So, not moving on. 

Which billionaires? Most of them are in fact helping us, which is why they are billionaires. They are not wealthy because they came into your house and stole from you. Most are wealthy because they have created things of great value to society, and people willingly give them money in exchange for the products they offer to better their lives. 

There are a lot of things, more than we can ever discuss here in a lifetime, that can be better or worse. The way those are all measured would be subjective or different based on each persons idea of what is better or worse. Some would be more hard and objective truths... so, what in particular are we talking about?

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, User said:

 ... so, what in particular are we talking about?

Some objective metric to compare against, so we can tell if the general welfare is improving or not.

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

There's vindication.

I get vindication everyday, and I never get triumph. 

 

I feel like I've been ripped off.

[User]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Some objective metric to compare against, so we can tell if the general welfare is improving or not.

Define general welfare.