MAGA civil war starting?

[I am Groot]

22 hours ago, Matthew said:

I live and work amid one of the largest Indian enclaves in the US. The town i live in has a major communications and GPS tech firm. It's an absurd generalization to suggest that they are merely low skill and low tier workforce. 

Your mileage may vary. But they aren't being brought over because they're good. They're being brought over because they're cheap. If they were better than the local alternative they'd be paid more, not less.

[I am Groot]

On 12/30/2024 at 6:54 PM, CdnFox said:

And he doesn't pander to the people of the minute as much as the dems.  If he thinks someone's a tard today he thinks they're a tard tomorrow, and likewise if he respects them today generally he respects them tomorrow.

This is just silly man. He loves people as long as they praise him. The instant they disagree he's looking for childish, pejorative terms to throat at them. He fired most of his first term cabinet simply  because they disagreed with him because he was going by FOX news and 'his gut'. His respect is based on how much money/ power a person has. He's always been like that. 

 

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

If what's good for the company is what  matters most who cares what society thinks?  No rich country breeds cheap labour for a corporation.

That old "What's good for GM is good for America" thing hasn't been taken seriously for many decades.

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

This is just silly man. He loves people as long as they praise him.

Sure, and I didn't pretend differently. He has the same affection for people that children do for others who aren't family, if the other person is friendly then they genuinely wish them well and if the other person makes them angry he wishes bad things happen to them.  

But again that's better than the dems, and that was the comparison. Not whether or not trump was a wonderful caring person or the like. 

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Why would you go digging for diamonds half way around the world if you've got excellent diamonds in your backyard?

But what if we don't have enough excellent people in our backyard? If only 1 person out of 1 million are excellent enough but you need 500 excellent people you need to sift through 500 million people.

Capisce?

Of course you don't.

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

But what if we don't have enough excellent people in our backyard?

In a population of almost 400 million people and some of the best tech schools in the world? I suppose it's theoretically possible but you certainly haven't proven that by any stretch of the imagination and it seems somewhat unlikely.

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If only 1 person out of 1 million are excellent enough but you need 500 excellent people you need to sift through 500 million people.

Yes, and such a person would probably cost you the better part of 30 million a year considering how rare their talents were     You appear to be trying to convince me that somehow the skill setting question is so incredibly rare that only one in 1 million has it.

There are millions of sofware engineers in the us. 

Software engineering demographics - Wikipedia

 

United States

In 2022, there were an estimated 4.4 million professional software engineers in North America.

That's about 20 percent of the world's software engineers. India doesn't even come close. 

India

There has been a healthy growth in the number of India's IT professionals over the past few years. From a base of 6,800 knowledge workers in 1985–86, the number increased to 522,000 software and services professionals by the end of 2001–02. It is estimated that out of these 528,000 knowledge workers, almost 170,000 are working in the IT software and services export industry; nearly 106,000 are working in the IT enabled services and over 230,000 in user organizations.^[25]

^{There must be a reason they're looking for these people specifically, and "labour pool" does not seem to be the reason.} 

Quote

 

Capisce?

Of course you don't.

 

Yeah, i capisce just fine    You pulled something out of your ass and then it turned out to be wrong and you couldnt' defend your position and now you're mad and want it to be all my fault.  

LOL! Never change big guy  

[eyeball]

21 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

That old "What's good for GM is good for America" thing hasn't been taken seriously for many decades.

It's sorta like the adage workers are given, you need money you go where the labour is.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

You appear to be trying to convince me that somehow the skill setting question is so incredibly rare that only one in 1 million has it.

It's Ramaswamy who's trying to convince you.

4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

There are millions of sofware engineers in the us. 

Sure but how many are willing to work for peanuts?

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's Ramaswamy who's trying to convince you.

 

Sure kid LOLOL

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Sure but how many are willing to work for peanuts?

It's a good question. Of course we don't know what these people are actually being paid but it is quite possible that they are willing to work extremely cheap or something and that's why they're being brought in. But if we're going back to the op's original comments I'm not sure that's much better than bringing in unskilled labor.

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It's a good question. Of course we don't know what these people are actually being paid but it is quite possible that they are willing to work extremely cheap or something and that's why they're being brought in. But if we're going back to the op's original comments I'm not sure that's much better than bringing in unskilled labor.

Except the oligarchs are talking about bringing in skilled labour not fruit pickers. Bubba's are pissed at immigrants period.

From the OP

The problem for many MAGA adherents, though, was accepting the very notion of immigrants telling them America needs more immigration to fill lucrative jobs in America

Wait until immigrant oligarchs tell the Bubba's there'll be lots of fruit picking jobs available once all the unskilled immigrants have been rounded up and shipped home.

[eyeball]

It's all kind of reminiscent of the days when manufacturers moved their factories to cheap abundant labour pools in other countries. Workers here, especially unionized ones who lost their jobs, were often chided for being lazy and unproductive and told to roll up their sleeves and sharpen their pencils.  Move to where the work is became popular advice so was getting out of drawing water and hewing wood and into IT and the service economy. Now resources are back and information is produced offshore.

Oligarchs probably laugh at puppies chasing their tails too.

[CdnFox]

31 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Except the oligarchs are talking about bringing in skilled labour not fruit pickers.

And? How does that change what i said?

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Bubba's are pissed at immigrants period.

Ahhh yes because when you've got no argument, bigotry  

Quote

 

From the OP

The problem for many MAGA adherents, though, was accepting the very notion of immigrants telling them America needs more immigration to fill lucrative jobs in America

 

Again... and? Setting aside that this is an unsubstantiated opinion how does that change what was just said?

 

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Wait until immigrant oligarchs tell the Bubba's there'll be lots of fruit picking jobs available once all the unskilled immigrants have been rounded up and shipped home.

LOL, so i take it you kind of feel silly for your previous position and you're just kind of throwing stuff out at random now   Although i do love that there's  "Immigration oligarchs" now  

Your sillyness aside,  i can see where people would have concerns about temporary workers being used to jobs that Americans could do just as well simply because they're cheap. Actual immigrants coming here to build a life and raise families and whose loyalty so to speak is to their new nation are a bit of a different matter in my mind. 

But i remember reading about this very debate in hansard records going back to John A's days with regards to the chinese as well.  It's a delecate balance. 

 

[eyeball]

31 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And? How does that change what i said?

It doesn't. It ignores what you said.

38 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Ahhh yes because when you've got no argument, bigotry  

38 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Again... and? Setting aside that this is an unsubstantiated opinion how does that change what was just said?

You tell me, you're the one who referred to the OP.  The part I quoted makes the point about why so many MAGA adherents are pissed.

45 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Although i do love that there's  "Immigration oligarchs" now

Immigrant oligarchs I said. Note the difference?

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It doesn't. It ignores what you said.

Oh right, i forgot that's your go to when you realize you've said something stupid and don't know how to recover gracefully     LOL ahh the left ... such a mentally stable group of individuals   

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Bupkis

[I am Groot]

9 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Sure, and I didn't pretend differently. He has the same affection for people that children do for others who aren't family, if the other person is friendly then they genuinely wish them well and if the other person makes them angry he wishes bad things happen to them.  

But again that's better than the dems, and that was the comparison. Not whether or not trump was a wonderful caring person or the like. 

Look, if I'd been an American and had to vote I'm not sure what I would have done. I despise Trump and think he's not just a miserable SOB - which I don't really care about - but an incompetent CENSORED who is all too likely to heavily damage America and the West's security against international enemies.

But I despise the identitarian lunacy and divisiveness of the Democrats, their incompetence at governing, their refusal to enforce law and order and provide basic levels of security for people in their homes and streets, their insistence on making everything about identity and showing government favor to certain identity groups. Their behavior, not necessarily Biden, but the party from federal on down to school boards is sawing away at the underpinnings of historical institutions and cultural unity in the US to such a degree society could fall apart if it's not halted.

So who knows, maybe I'd have voted Republican. But in my heart of hearts I don't think he's going to help. I don't think he's going to do a damn thing to restrain the woke types except in the most superficial ways. He certainly didn't last time around. And if he sets himself to make his four years about payback I think America will become even more divided, to the point of a huge increase in political violence.

[SkyHigh]

On 12/27/2024 at 4:22 AM, Michael Hardner said:

For those of us who were never in it, this movement of anti-politics know-nothings (a historical term, by the way) will unfold pretty much as we expect.

Testify 

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Look, if I'd been an American and had to vote I'm not sure what I would have done. I despise Trump and think he's not just a miserable SOB - which I don't really care about - but an incompetent CENSORED who is all too likely to heavily damage America and the West's security against international enemies.

But I despise the identitarian lunacy and divisiveness of the Democrats, their incompetence at governing, their refusal to enforce law and order and provide basic levels of security for people in their homes and streets, their insistence on making everything about identity and showing government favor to certain identity groups. Their behavior, not necessarily Biden, but the party from federal on down to school boards is sawing away at the underpinnings of historical institutions and cultural unity in the US to such a degree society could fall apart if it's not halted.

So who knows, maybe I'd have voted Republican. But in my heart of hearts I don't think he's going to help. I don't think he's going to do a damn thing to restrain the woke types except in the most superficial ways. He certainly didn't last time around. And if he sets himself to make his four years about payback I think America will become even more divided, to the point of a huge increase in political violence.

I believe I've said previously that they're really were no white hats in this election. It was a tough choice, even though i'm less anti trump than you are i have acknowledged many times he has serious flaws that prevent him from ever being a great president.  I thought his first term was fairly good, not great or fantastic but pretty solid. I'm hoping that's what i'll be saying about his second term. 

I believe whole heartedly the kamala administration (or whomever would have been pulling her strings) would have been a worse result. But that bar was already fairly low  

You don't have to convince me that trump is not a terribly nice guy we're not deeply flawed as a leader and a person. But his record to date isn't bad and the antics of the dems were worse.  

All we can hope is that moving forward the dems and the republicans will put forward some excellent candidates who'll have a well fought contest over the issues and policy and they'll get a real star next time.  In the meantime i think trump won't destroy the place (probably) and at least his antics are always amusing  

 

[Matthew]

19 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Your mileage may vary. But they aren't being brought over because they're good. They're being brought over because they're cheap. If they were better than the local alternative they'd be paid more, not less.

Perhaps there was a time when what you're describing was accurate. But these days the average Indian IT professional in the US earns slightly more than the average for US IT professionals in general. And again there are several prominent technical fields where this is true, another main one being physicians. In both of these cases the main issue is a shortage of qualified individuals in specific geographic areas. Willingness to fill these gaps would explain why their average pay is higher.

[Michael Hardner]

41 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Perhaps there was a time when what you're describing was accurate. But these days the average Indian IT professional in the US earns slightly more than the average for US IT professionals in general. And again there are several prominent technical fields where this is true, another main one being physicians. In both of these cases the main issue is a shortage of qualified individuals in specific geographic areas. Willingness to fill these gaps would explain why their average pay is higher.

My experience is that there's no difference in skills. There is however a deficit in quality for some offshore vendors.  I find that that's a culture thing, not National culture but corporate culture. 

These folks came into the game undercutting and going for Rock bottom costs. Pretty clearly when their people get better, they move on to other firms or come on Shore. 

But my claims, and the others are anecdotal. At least you provided some metrics.

[I am Groot]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

My experience is that there's no difference in skills. There is however a deficit in quality for some offshore vendors.  I find that that's a culture thing, not National culture but corporate culture. 

These folks came into the game undercutting and going for Rock bottom costs. Pretty clearly when their people get better, they move on to other firms or come on Shore. 

But my claims, and the others are anecdotal. At least you provided some metrics.

Uh... no, his claims are entirely anecdotal, as well.

7 hours ago, Matthew said:

Perhaps there was a time when what you're describing was accurate. But these days the average Indian IT professional in the US earns slightly more than the average for US IT professionals in general.

Cite? I'm not talking about immigrants. I'm talking about temporary foreign workers. Immigrants in the US (unlike Canada) invariably earn more than the locals.

[Michael Hardner]

20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. Uh... no, his claims are entirely anecdotal, as well.

 

1. Uh... yeah, I think I said exactly that.
 

[Matthew]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I'm not talking about immigrants. I'm talking about temporary foreign workers.

Well pfft. With a few noteworthy exceptions temps in general make less regsrdless of where they are from. I'm talking about the far more sizable immigrant labor for highly technical professions. Which overall ranges from 15 to 30% of the workforce depending on the specific field.  And India is by far the biggest contribution to supplementing US shortage of technichal and healthcare expertise.

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, Matthew said:

Well pfft. With a few noteworthy exceptions temps in general make less regsrdless of where they are from. I'm talking about the far more sizable immigrant labor for highly technical professions. Which overall ranges from 15 to 30% of the workforce depending on the specific field.  And India is by far the biggest contribution to supplementing US shortage of technichal and healthcare expertise.

There's a massive difference between office temps And temporary foreign workers. It's not remotely the same thing.

And I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of the rest of your assertions.

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Matthew said:

Well pfft. With a few noteworthy exceptions temps in general make less regsrdless of where they are from. I'm talking about the far more sizable immigrant labor for highly technical professions. Which overall ranges from 15 to 30% of the workforce depending on the specific field.  And India is by far the biggest contribution to supplementing US shortage of technichal and healthcare expertise.

That's nice. But nobody else here was talking about immigrants. This is about the H1b program for temporary foreign workers.

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Uh... yeah, I think I said exactly that.
 

Nope.