Passports for Canada

[Argus]

I'm surprised there's no discussion of this, given the introduction of the passport laws will probably cost Canada considerably more money than the softwood lumber tax.

Vast numbers of visitors into Canada are day-trippers, recreational visitors from the US who just drive across the border because it's so quick and close and easy. Lots of visitors don't even decide to come to Canada until a day or two before arrival. They just pick up and drive to Toronto or Vancouver to see a show or have a weekend holiday.

Now they need to get their passports first. Very few ordinary Americans have passports. And getting passports costs money, especially for families. So much for those spur of the moment trips to Canada, so much for the day-trippers, so much for the Niagara Falls tourists from New York who want to cross for a better view, and maybe to have lunch. And many of those day-trippers, after their first introduction, decide to come back next year for longer periods. No longer.

This is going to have an enormous effect on the tourism/restaurant industry.

And it all could have been avoided. The Liberal government's absolute determination to do NOTHING whatsoever to address American concern with our wide open borders, our lack of any recognizable program to keep control over the masses of unknowns we allow in as undocumented refugees, our lack of policing, our lack of intelligence operations, our lack of control of our ports and airports and coasts and border areas all combined with an arrogant anti-American Liberal government to throw away the usual Canadian exemption to these things. Now it's too late. There's already a law passed by Congress and it's too late to persuade them to pull it.

Let's reexamine briefly:

Refugees - thousands of them arriving every year. Undocumented. We have no idea who they are. They step off the plane and disappear into our cities within hours. We have no idea who they are or where they go. There isn't even a program to keep track of them, let alone find them when they don't show up. If caught trying to sneak into the US by US border patrol they are returned to Canada - and released without penalty to try again.

Immigration - large and growing Muslim population in central Canada, most hostile to the US and US interests. Little or no investigation of new or sponsored immigrants as to political ties or views.

Airports - We are virtually the only nation in the West now (possibly THE only nation in the West) who subcontracts airport security to minimum wage security guards, most of whom are immigrants and refugees themselves.

Coast guard - Has few ships and most are tied up at port most of the time for lack of money

Navy - ditto

Ports - Ports police disbanded. Liberal senate committee finds ports under the control of organized crime

RCMP - grossly underfunded and undermanned. Can't even investigate fraud for lack of funding.

CSIS - grossly underfunded and undermanned, primary requirement for agents is bilingualism.

US Border patrol - RCMP withdraws the few police along the border in central Canada due to lack of funds

And we wonder why the US is applying passport controls to Canada for the first time?

[August1991]

Argus, the title of this thread is misleading. Do you mean passports for Canadians?

In fact, Americans who leave the US will require a federally issued document to return to the US. Homeland Security is now looking at different options, of which a passport is only one. It appears as if there will be some kind plastic identity card for this purpose.

Passports are usually required by foreign governments who want to identify foreigners. In this case, it is the US government that wants to identify US citizens.

Your discussion of Canada's "weak borders" applies equally to the US. The US also admits refugees and faces the problem of undocumented passengers. It has an uncontrolled border to its south and long coastlines with little surveillance. It has a large population of undocumented "aliens".

But true, we could have avoided this problem.

Canada has usually had a priviliged position in Washington. When Nixon imposed an accross-the-board import duty, Trudeau negotiated an exemption for Canada. The US allowed Canada within its critical security perimeter by the creation of NORAD. Mulroney negotiated a free trade agreement which limited the powers of the US Congress.

IOW, we had the opportunity, a few years ago, to be included in the US security zone. For example, we could have negotiated a single North American visa and similar policies for admitting non-US, non-Canadians. Well, we missed the opportunity.

That's unfortunate. IMV, too many English-Canadians are still too immature and a few years ago, politicians played to them.

[sharkman]

I believe you're right on the money, Argus. Our lax screening and security towards immigration has been a concern of mine, and it is a main reason the U.S. has responded this way. Some of these immigrants are known criminals that set up operations here and if we don't do something about it eventually our way of life will change for the worse.

[Drea]

This morning on CTV newsnet....

The US has approximately 12 million illegals and they are protesting -- one fellow even said it could lead to civil war in the US.

Does this mean Canada must have 1.2 million (10% as we have 10% of the population of the US) illegals?

Nope.

Not even close. No I don't have the numbers -- but I'm willing to bet that we don't have 1.2 illegals here.

What you are saying is "get rid of your illegals who are obviously terrorists who want to destroy the USA"

... our way of life will change for the worse? Why? How?

How many Canadians are sneaking across the border to find jobs as janitors and nannies?

How many Mexicans are sneaking across the border to become janitors and nannies?

Which border should the US be concerned about?

[Montgomery Burns]

Drea:

What you are saying is "get rid of your illegals who are obviously terrorists who want to destroy the USA"

Which border should the US be concerned about?

You should be careful, especially when you are at war.

Major terrorist arrest in Newmarket:

In one of the most significant terrorism arrests in Canada since 9/11, a man believed to be a captain of the Pakistani extremist organization Mujahedin-E-Lashkar-E-Tayyba, or LET, which is funded by Osama bin Laden and has direct ties to al-Qaida, was arrested March 16 by Canadian border service officers in Newmarket. Intelligence sources say members of LET have been trained in Afghan terrorist camps.

Ontario immigration sources say 40-year-old Raja Ghulam Mustafa, a Pakistani national who went by the last name Murtaza, was arrested outside his home with a packed suitcase and a significant amount of cash on him. In 1997, Mustafa was arrested in the U.S. but was released on a peace bond after he filed a claim for refugee status. During that time, officials said he fled to Canada under a phony name. He was eventually able to secure refugee status here. Mustafa moved to Newmarket to live with his brother-in-law Syed Maqsood Aly, a fugitive wanted in the U.S. for drug trafficking and fraud, according to sources.

He was planning to go to the US but he was nabbed first.

The US is doing a poor job with their Mexican border, especially during wartime. The Republicans are leery because of the cheaper labor it provides to some businesses (who generally support the GOP), and the Democrats see them as an opportunity to expand their voter base by "helping" these lower-income immigrants.

[Hicksey]

I believe you're right on the money, Argus. Our lax screening and security towards immigration has been a concern of mine, and it is a main reason the U.S. has responded this way. Some of these immigrants are known criminals that set up operations here and if we don't do something about it eventually our way of life will change for the worse.

You should see the difference in crossing USA to Canada and Canada to USA in an 18 wheeler truck. You would be amazed and scared. I'm not even asked for ID 75% of the time coming into Canada. In Windsor the customs compound is a full mile from the booths through the city leaving trucks with illegal goods able to just skip secondary inspection and drive away undetected. Going into the USA, if at any time I do not have ID to present I can be turned around. My truck goes through 3 types of scanning, infared for heat, gamma detection for nuclear, and xray. I've never seen Windsor's Xray truck and they have neither of the other two set up at either Fort Erie, Sarnia or Windsor.

I've been travelling across the Windsor/Detroit crossing 2-5 times per week for over 5 years now and I am apalled at how unprepared our entry points are compared to those across the river.

[August1991]

You should see the difference in crossing USA to Canada and Canada to USA in an 18 wheeler truck. You would be amazed and scared. I'm not even asked for ID 75% of the time coming into Canada. In Windsor the customs compound is a full mile from the booths through the city leaving trucks with illegal goods able to just skip secondary inspection and drive away undetected. Going into the USA, if at any time I do not have ID to present I can be turned around. My truck goes through 3 types of scanning, infared for heat, gamma detection for nuclear, and xray. I've never seen Windsor's Xray truck and they have neither of the other two set up at either Fort Erie, Sarnia or Windsor.

Should we really be afraid about trucks arriving from the US? And should Americans be afraid of trucks arriving from Canada? Is that the source of the threat?

By your logic, we should check all trucks crossing the Manitoba/Ontario border, and Americans should check at the New York/Pennsylvania border.

We should concentrate our resources for detection where they will do the most good and if security is the issue, the Windsor-Detroit border crossing is hardly a critical spot. Canada has it right, the US has it wrong.

[Argus]

You should see the difference in crossing USA to Canada and Canada to USA in an 18 wheeler truck. You would be amazed and scared. I'm not even asked for ID 75% of the time coming into Canada. In Windsor the customs compound is a full mile from the booths through the city leaving trucks with illegal goods able to just skip secondary inspection and drive away undetected. Going into the USA, if at any time I do not have ID to present I can be turned around. My truck goes through 3 types of scanning, infared for heat, gamma detection for nuclear, and xray. I've never seen Windsor's Xray truck and they have neither of the other two set up at either Fort Erie, Sarnia or Windsor.

Should we really be afraid about trucks arriving from the US? And should Americans be afraid of trucks arriving from Canada? Is that the source of the threat?

What makes you think it's any harder at our ports? From what I understand, and from what the Senate has said - it isn't.

[Argus]

Argus, the title of this thread is misleading. Do you mean passports for Canadians?

In fact, Americans who leave the US will require a federally issued document to return to the US.

Anyone crossing the border will need a passport.

Homeland Security is now looking at different options, of which a passport is only one. It appears as if there will be some kind plastic identity card for this purpose.

It doesn't really matter what they choose. It will have the same result.

Passports are usually required by foreign governments who want to identify foreigners. In this case, it is the US government that wants to identify US citizens.

Anyone crossing the border.

Your discussion of Canada's "weak borders" applies equally to the US. The US also admits refugees and faces the problem of undocumented passengers. It has an uncontrolled border to its south and long coastlines with little surveillance. It has a large population of undocumented "aliens".

The US is at least trying to improve their security. Albiet, their southern border is a sieve due to the political reasons mentioned above. However, that's not the point. The point is that our problem, and the financial cost tourism is going to bear, could have been avoided were the Liberas not so completely and utterly incompetent and uncaring about both security and and our relationship with the US.

[Nocrap]

Argus, the title of this thread is misleading. Do you mean passports for Canadians?

In fact, Americans who leave the US will require a federally issued document to return to the US.

Anyone crossing the border will need a passport.

Homeland Security is now looking at different options, of which a passport is only one. It appears as if there will be some kind plastic identity card for this purpose.

It doesn't really matter what they choose. It will have the same result.

Passports are usually required by foreign governments who want to identify foreigners. In this case, it is the US government that wants to identify US citizens.

Anyone crossing the border.

Your discussion of Canada's "weak borders" applies equally to the US. The US also admits refugees and faces the problem of undocumented passengers. It has an uncontrolled border to its south and long coastlines with little surveillance. It has a large population of undocumented "aliens".

The US is at least trying to improve their security. Albiet, their southern border is a sieve due to the political reasons mentioned above. However, that's not the point. The point is that our problem, and the financial cost tourism is going to bear, could have been avoided were the Liberas not so completely and utterly incompetent and uncaring about both security and and our relationship with the US.

I don't think it really matters whether passports or some other form of security pass is required, and actually could produce a false sense of security. We know how easy it is to forge any kind of document, and border patrols could become complacent, believing that the necessary background checks are already taken care of.

Canadians who defend the passport or security pass requirement, say that it will avoid having to wait in long lineups, if all they have to do is flash a card. However, this also means that potential terrorists, drug dealers, etc. will also be able to avoid the long lineups, when they simply pull out their pass. Something to think about.

[southerncomfort]

The yanks should be worried about the Canadian border its a pretty porous one. Nothing wrong with requiring passports to cross the border.

[Leafless]

I think passports are a great idea and will give both countries that added level of protection.

The only ones I suspect that would oppose passports are the ones with something to hide.

The U.S. and Canada are not the same country and both deserve the right to help protect the entry of undesirables.

[Hicksey]

You should see the difference in crossing USA to Canada and Canada to USA in an 18 wheeler truck. You would be amazed and scared. I'm not even asked for ID 75% of the time coming into Canada. In Windsor the customs compound is a full mile from the booths through the city leaving trucks with illegal goods able to just skip secondary inspection and drive away undetected. Going into the USA, if at any time I do not have ID to present I can be turned around. My truck goes through 3 types of scanning, infared for heat, gamma detection for nuclear, and xray. I've never seen Windsor's Xray truck and they have neither of the other two set up at either Fort Erie, Sarnia or Windsor.

Should we really be afraid about trucks arriving from the US? And should Americans be afraid of trucks arriving from Canada? Is that the source of the threat?

By your logic, we should check all trucks crossing the Manitoba/Ontario border, and Americans should check at the New York/Pennsylvania border.

We should concentrate our resources for detection where they will do the most good and if security is the issue, the Windsor-Detroit border crossing is hardly a critical spot. Canada has it right, the US has it wrong.

Well, for starters the first World Trade Center bomber used a truck.

Between countries we should definitely be vigilant considering there is a ton of intelligence that says that terrorists have been crossing between Canada and the US in their preparations. And I have witnessed up to 7 people people of that heritage being smuggled across the border in a truck. Between provinces I don't think we need the same vigilance.

The Windsor/Detroit is by far the busiest crossing between Canada and the US and 2nd in North America to one between Mexico and the US. If you're going to try to slip something through its going to be at a busy crossing.

[August1991]

Argus, the title of this thread is misleading. Do you mean passports for Canadians?

In fact, Americans who leave the US will require a federally issued document to return to the US.

Anyone crossing the border will need a passport.

That's false, and misleading. Non-Canadians and Non-Americans crossing the border have always required a passport. What is critically new is that US citizens will require a federally-issued travel document (not necessarily a passport) to return to the US from Canada. Previously, they could do this with a driver's license alone.

The Prime Minister made the remarks after U.S. President George W. Bush reiterated his country's intention to go ahead with the plan, which will require citizens of both countries to carry either a passport or a new high-tech card to get into each other's country.

G & M

[incidentally, both Canadian and US law leaves it up to the border officer to decide whether to admit someone - a document is used to make an opinion, but does not guarantee anything and is strictly not required.]

Homeland Security is now looking at different options, of which a passport is only one. It appears as if there will be some kind plastic identity card for this purpose.

It doesn't really matter what they choose. It will have the same result.

It does matter. A cheap, permanent travel ID for use only at the Canada/US border would be better than a costly passport requiring renewal fees and re-submission of documents (as is the case with a Canadian passport).

At present, a Canadian passport is valid for 5 years and a US passport for 10 years. About 40% of adult Canadians have a passport and about 35% of adult Americans. Link.

Passports are usually required by foreign governments who want to identify foreigners. In this case, it is the US government that wants to identify US citizens.

Anyone crossing the border.

What is critically new is that the US government will require a US federal document from American citizens (and a federally-issued document from Canadians too).

It is the US government that is imposing this requirement and the assumption is that it will mean fewer Americans coming to Canada. You are right Argus to say that it will also mean fewer Canadians going to the US. In either case, this will make Canadians (and Americans) worse off.

Your discussion of Canada's "weak borders" applies equally to the US. The US also admits refugees and faces the problem of undocumented passengers. It has an uncontrolled border to its south and long coastlines with little surveillance. It has a large population of undocumented "aliens".

The US is at least trying to improve their security. Albiet, their southern border is a sieve due to the political reasons mentioned above. However, that's not the point. The point is that our problem, and the financial cost tourism is going to bear, could have been avoided were the Liberas not so completely and utterly incompetent and uncaring about both security and and our relationship with the US.

This is my main point. If the purpose is to provide security, checking people at the Canadian/US border is plain dumb. Americans would be better to check trucks entering Manhattan, or crossing the New Jersey/New York state-line.

On any given day, about 50,000 foreigners enter Canada. About 40,000 of these are Americans and about 10,000 are from outside the continent. Similar ratios apply in the US. It seems obvious to me where we should concentrate our checking efforts.

Both Canada and the US should divert their limited resources from land borders to North America's airports and seaports. Canada and the US should have strong agreements on entry to North America. It is a fact of life that once a foreigner is in Canada, they are in effect in the US and vice versa.

The same Washington bureaucracy which sent Mohamed Atta a renewal of his US visa six months after he killed himself is responsible for this crazy idea of requiring travel documents at the US/Canada border. The same kneejerk anti-Americanism in English-Canada is responsible for our previous government's decision to let this wastefulness happen.

Future US & Canadian governments will negotiate a single North American visa, and the physical border between the two countries will disappear. That is inevitable. This will not be the end of Canada anymore than the disappearance of the physical border between Holland and Germany has meant the end of Holland.

[scribblet]

I don't have a problem with needing a passport, neither should anyone else, and yes, it is partly Canad'a s fault for having such a porous border.

However, it would be nice, if the Canadian gov't reduced the passport fees temporarily and opened some more offices to accomodate the increased demand. Time and cost is a factor for most people, especially for large families.

[Wilber]

US passport costs $97 US or $113 CDN and are valid 10 years. Cost $11.30 per year.

Canadian passport costs $87 and are valid for 5 years. Cost $17.40 per year.

If you are traveling to some countries such as China or Australia they require 6 months remaining on a passport before they will issue a visa, meaning they are only good for 4 1/2 years in such cases.

We are getting ripped off.

[Topaz]

Do you know how many Canadians work in the US and go back and forth each day? I wonder if the nurses will decide to work in Canada or still cross the border.

[Argus]

I think passports are a great idea and will give both countries that added level of protection.

The only ones I suspect that would oppose passports are the ones with something to hide.

Or maybe a job or a business which depends on American visitors? D'you think?

[gerryhatrick]

Absolute nitwittery. "It could have been avoided" my a$$.

The USA is going to do what it's going to do regardless of a few immigration changes or border measures.

Passports at the border is mild stuff. The idea of building a friggin wall was floated!! What would you have said if that had gained traction..."Oh...if only the Liberals had....snif snif".

Get over it already. What happens now is Stephen Harpers responsibility. Crying that it's already law so there's nothing can be done is piss poor.

[geoffrey]

There is nothing anyone can do about this. It's a law thats been passed. Believe it or not, the President can't just throw all the laws out the window, even though he may have tried too!

Kind of funny. Canada was created because we were scared of the Americans. And now they fear us.

Interesting...